NBA Trade Thread #11

[2weekswithpay]

Alright, let's get ready to rumble! Is anybody willing to discuss trading for the actual best available player on the market, drafted by the Bulls and one of 3 or 4 players that have proven they can take an average overall team to the championship? Is the hate for Jimmy butler that bad, is it the belief that he's washed, or is the determination to get worse mean we should ignore acquiring gamechangers? He is older, but his next contract will hopefully be three years, it'll end when he's one year younger than Lebron is now, and Butler is also pretty damn fit. We actually may be able to draft our rookie AND add Butler this summer without moving Lavine if Vuc is moved. His personality would be a concern, as is his relationship with Bulls management, but there's been a lot of turnover here since Jimmy was here. He's almost certainly going to better than ANY rookie we draft over the next 2-3 years.

What if the trade was some variation of Butler, Jaime Jaquez Jr, and Josh Richardson for Vucevic, Coby White, and Lonzo Ball? He's averaging 19, 6 and 5, 36% from the three and career high 55%Fg with the same tough defense, btw.

Are you willing to pay Jimmy what he wants? Butler is still very good but he's 35 and only plays around 60 games a season now. The Heat understandably don't want to overpay to keep him.

As for the trade. You need a 3rd team for Coby because the Heat already have Rozier and Herro.

Wouldn't mind discussing it. I think Jimmy has value beyond just his physical abilities. Don't see them diminishing to the point where they slow him down much over the next few year. Lots of players play into their late 30's and are effective. Don't think Jimmy's getting a max contract from anyone this summer, he's going to have to settle. I can see him being just as effective or more effective than Ingram or MPJ the next few years, at close to the same money. They're injured more than Jimmy, lol. I think the cost to get Butler is way less than other equal talents, because of his age. Would rather go after him in FA for several reasons: We keep the players or asset equivalent and get Butler just for cap space. Would also be more likely to keep this draft pick, especially if we trade Vuc before deadline. He's the prototype wing to play next to Zach, and MIGHT be considered a 1A, at least in the playoffs.

I do think this Bulls team with Butler, minus Ball and Vuc, add a defensive center and top 10 rookie, could be top 4 in the East. Butler's kind of unique, it could blow up, or he could push these young guys to new levels. With age also comes maturity and wisdom. A Jimmy Butler homecoming, and he leads the team past the second round or to the Finals, could do a ton for his legacy.

I think the other thought is guys want us to be contenders while remaining out of the luxury tax. That's almost impossible, in today's NBA. At some point if we actually want to contend, we'll have multiple expensive players here. We're worried about cap in one of the biggest markets in the league.

What is the highest you're willing to pay Butler? I don't believe he's getting a max, but apparently, that's what he asked for. I think Butler's asking price will come down but it seems he's trying to get as much money as possible.

Butler’s representation has made it clear that the Heat will be hearing from them at 12:01 a.m. on July 7, with the request for the maximum two-year, $112.9 million extension that will take Butler past his 36th birthday. Source

I don't believe there's an issue with how effective Butler is as a player. Butler continues to miss 1/5 of the season, and coasts for another 10 games. There's a lot of downside in paying him 55M+ at 35. How do you plan on dumping Vuc? You get Butler as a free agent, dumping Vuc for expiring contracts, and letting Giddey walk is the minimum required to pay him at least 50M.

Is ownership okay with paying the tax? Fans don't care about the tax but acknowledge that ownership does.

[Infinity2152]

Are you willing to pay Jimmy what he wants? Butler is still very good but he's 35 and only plays around 60 games a season now. The Heat understandably don't want to overpay to keep him.

As for the trade. You need a 3rd team for Coby because the Heat already have Rozier and Herro.

Wouldn't mind discussing it. I think Jimmy has value beyond just his physical abilities. Don't see them diminishing to the point where they slow him down much over the next few year. Lots of players play into their late 30's and are effective. Don't think Jimmy's getting a max contract from anyone this summer, he's going to have to settle. I can see him being just as effective or more effective than Ingram or MPJ the next few years, at close to the same money. They're injured more than Jimmy, lol. I think the cost to get Butler is way less than other equal talents, because of his age. Would rather go after him in FA for several reasons: We keep the players or asset equivalent and get Butler just for cap space. Would also be more likely to keep this draft pick, especially if we trade Vuc before deadline. He's the prototype wing to play next to Zach, and MIGHT be considered a 1A, at least in the playoffs.

I do think this Bulls team with Butler, minus Ball and Vuc, add a defensive center and top 10 rookie, could be top 4 in the East. Butler's kind of unique, it could blow up, or he could push these young guys to new levels. With age also comes maturity and wisdom. A Jimmy Butler homecoming, and he leads the team past the second round or to the Finals, could do a ton for his legacy.

I think the other thought is guys want us to be contenders while remaining out of the luxury tax. That's almost impossible, in today's NBA. At some point if we actually want to contend, we'll have multiple expensive players here. We're worried about cap in one of the biggest markets in the league.

What is the highest you're willing to pay Butler? I don't believe he's getting a max, but apparently, that's what he asked for. I think Butler's asking price will come down but it seems he's trying to get as much money as possible.

Butler’s representation has made it clear that the Heat will be hearing from them at 12:01 a.m. on July 7, with the request for the maximum two-year, $112.9 million extension that will take Butler past his 36th birthday. Source

I don't believe there's an issue with how effective Butler is as a player. Butler continues to miss 1/5 of the season, and coasts for another 10 games. There's a lot of downside in paying him 55M+ at 35. How do you plan on dumping Vuc? You get Butler as a free agent, dumping Vuc for expiring contracts, and letting Giddey walk is the minimum required to pay him at least 50M.

Is ownership okay with paying the tax? Fans don't care about the tax but acknowledge that ownership does.

I'd be comfortable paying Butler up to $50 mill. When you look at the top NBA players, aren't most of them averaging 60 or so games? Days are long gone when the average star played 70 regularly. Some of the top FA this summer are Butler (60 gms this year, 64 year before), Ingram (64 last season, 45 year before), Middleton (55, 33), Giddey (80, 76), Van Fleet (73, 69), Ben Simmons (15, 42), Lonzo Ball (0,0), Harden (72,58). Add in guys like PG13, Leonard, Embid, etc. MPJ is 81, 62, 9, 61, 55 and Ingram's missed more games than Jimmy last few years but we're considering them. Way healthier than Pat Will. Could we do a sign and trade this summer, and send Pat to them to make up some of the cap? Means starting Matas or the rookie, but so what?

I think ownership will pay tax for a winning product. They could probably dump Vuc now but they're waiting on a first, I think Vuc will be gone by trade deadline. Lonzo's $20 mill, plus Carter's $7 mill may be gone (option), between Craig, Duarte, and THT we free up over $10 mill. We don't have to let Giddey walk to sign Butler, I don't think. We also don't know how much Giddey is going to get. That's also assuming Pat isn't traded, I think they put him on the block too and adding Butler makes it an even easier decision. To have a complete team, we'll probably be at the tax, maybe over it. Trade Coby for a young center. Giddey, Lavine, Butler, Williams, (Blank) with Matas, Ayo, Rookie, Terry Phillips, Smith could really make some noise, especially if the rookie is any good. Team could be very good both ways, instead of just offensively.

Jimmy's probably top 10 in terms of total team impact. The other 9 would cost half our roster to get and cost as much or more. Saw a stat from 2022 that showed All Stars averaged 19% missed games, and that's guys who actually played enough to make it, not all NBA stars. NBA stars on pace to miss over 1000 games this season.

[Dan Z]

Wouldn't mind discussing it. I think Jimmy has value beyond just his physical abilities. Don't see them diminishing to the point where they slow him down much over the next few year. Lots of players play into their late 30's and are effective. Don't think Jimmy's getting a max contract from anyone this summer, he's going to have to settle. I can see him being just as effective or more effective than Ingram or MPJ the next few years, at close to the same money. They're injured more than Jimmy, lol. I think the cost to get Butler is way less than other equal talents, because of his age. Would rather go after him in FA for several reasons: We keep the players or asset equivalent and get Butler just for cap space. Would also be more likely to keep this draft pick, especially if we trade Vuc before deadline. He's the prototype wing to play next to Zach, and MIGHT be considered a 1A, at least in the playoffs.

I do think this Bulls team with Butler, minus Ball and Vuc, add a defensive center and top 10 rookie, could be top 4 in the East. Butler's kind of unique, it could blow up, or he could push these young guys to new levels. With age also comes maturity and wisdom. A Jimmy Butler homecoming, and he leads the team past the second round or to the Finals, could do a ton for his legacy.

I think the other thought is guys want us to be contenders while remaining out of the luxury tax. That's almost impossible, in today's NBA. At some point if we actually want to contend, we'll have multiple expensive players here. We're worried about cap in one of the biggest markets in the league.

What is the highest you're willing to pay Butler? I don't believe he's getting a max, but apparently, that's what he asked for. I think Butler's asking price will come down but it seems he's trying to get as much money as possible.

Butler’s representation has made it clear that the Heat will be hearing from them at 12:01 a.m. on July 7, with the request for the maximum two-year, $112.9 million extension that will take Butler past his 36th birthday. Source

I don't believe there's an issue with how effective Butler is as a player. Butler continues to miss 1/5 of the season, and coasts for another 10 games. There's a lot of downside in paying him 55M+ at 35. How do you plan on dumping Vuc? You get Butler as a free agent, dumping Vuc for expiring contracts, and letting Giddey walk is the minimum required to pay him at least 50M.

Is ownership okay with paying the tax? Fans don't care about the tax but acknowledge that ownership does.

I'd be comfortable paying Butler up to $50 mill. When you look at the top NBA players, aren't most of them averaging 60 or so games? Days are long gone when the average star played 70 regularly. Some of the top FA this summer are Butler (60 gms this year, 64 year before), Ingram (64 last season, 45 year before), Middleton (55, 33), Giddey (80, 76), Van Fleet (73, 69), Ben Simmons (15, 42), Lonzo Ball (0,0), Harden (72,58). Add in guys like PG13, Leonard, Embid, etc. MPJ is 81, 62, 9, 61, 55 and Ingram's missed more games than Jimmy last few years but we're considering them. Way healthier than Pat Will. Could we do a sign and trade this summer, and send Pat to them to make up some of the cap? Means starting Matas or the rookie, but so what?

I think ownership will pay tax for a winning product. They could probably dump Vuc now but they're waiting on a first, I think Vuc will be gone by trade deadline. Lonzo's $20 mill, plus Carter's $7 mill may be gone (option), between Craig, Duarte, and THT we free up over $10 mill. We don't have to let Giddey walk to sign Butler, I don't think. We also don't know how much Giddey is going to get. That's also assuming Pat isn't traded, I think they put him on the block too and adding Butler makes it an even easier decision. To have a complete team, we'll probably be at the tax, maybe over it. Trade Coby for a young center. Giddey, Lavine, Butler, Williams, (Blank) with Matas, Ayo, Rookie, Terry Phillips, Smith could really make some noise, especially if the rookie is any good. Team could be very good both ways, instead of just offensively.

Jimmy's probably top 10 in terms of total team impact. The other 9 would cost half our roster to get and cost as much or more. Saw a stat from 2022 that showed All Stars averaged 19% missed games, and that's guys who actually played enough to make it, not all NBA stars. NBA stars on pace to miss over 1000 games this season.

If AK isn't willing to rebuild (and I don't think he is) then Butler is an interesting idea. The problem is what will the Heat want for him? Coby doesn't make any sense for Miami so he'd have to go to a third team. Who else...Lonzo for his contract? Other players..? Picks?

Are we also talking about keeping Zach and Vucevic in this scenario?

[2weekswithpay]

Wouldn't mind discussing it. I think Jimmy has value beyond just his physical abilities. Don't see them diminishing to the point where they slow him down much over the next few year. Lots of players play into their late 30's and are effective. Don't think Jimmy's getting a max contract from anyone this summer, he's going to have to settle. I can see him being just as effective or more effective than Ingram or MPJ the next few years, at close to the same money. They're injured more than Jimmy, lol. I think the cost to get Butler is way less than other equal talents, because of his age. Would rather go after him in FA for several reasons: We keep the players or asset equivalent and get Butler just for cap space. Would also be more likely to keep this draft pick, especially if we trade Vuc before deadline. He's the prototype wing to play next to Zach, and MIGHT be considered a 1A, at least in the playoffs.

I do think this Bulls team with Butler, minus Ball and Vuc, add a defensive center and top 10 rookie, could be top 4 in the East. Butler's kind of unique, it could blow up, or he could push these young guys to new levels. With age also comes maturity and wisdom. A Jimmy Butler homecoming, and he leads the team past the second round or to the Finals, could do a ton for his legacy.

I think the other thought is guys want us to be contenders while remaining out of the luxury tax. That's almost impossible, in today's NBA. At some point if we actually want to contend, we'll have multiple expensive players here. We're worried about cap in one of the biggest markets in the league.

What is the highest you're willing to pay Butler? I don't believe he's getting a max, but apparently, that's what he asked for. I think Butler's asking price will come down but it seems he's trying to get as much money as possible.

Butler’s representation has made it clear that the Heat will be hearing from them at 12:01 a.m. on July 7, with the request for the maximum two-year, $112.9 million extension that will take Butler past his 36th birthday. Source

I don't believe there's an issue with how effective Butler is as a player. Butler continues to miss 1/5 of the season, and coasts for another 10 games. There's a lot of downside in paying him 55M+ at 35. How do you plan on dumping Vuc? You get Butler as a free agent, dumping Vuc for expiring contracts, and letting Giddey walk is the minimum required to pay him at least 50M.

Is ownership okay with paying the tax? Fans don't care about the tax but acknowledge that ownership does.

I'd be comfortable paying Butler up to $50 mill. When you look at the top NBA players, aren't most of them averaging 60 or so games? Days are long gone when the average star played 70 regularly. Some of the top FA this summer are Butler (60 gms this year, 64 year before), Ingram (64 last season, 45 year before), Middleton (55, 33), Giddey (80, 76), Van Fleet (73, 69), Ben Simmons (15, 42), Lonzo Ball (0,0), Harden (72,58). Add in guys like PG13, Leonard, Embid, etc. MPJ is 81, 62, 9, 61, 55 and Ingram's missed more games than Jimmy last few years but we're considering them.

I think ownership will pay tax for a winning product. They could probably dump Vuc now but they're waiting on a first, I think Vuc will be gone by trade deadline. Lonzo's $20 mill, plus Carter's $7 mill may be gone (option), between Craig, Duarte, and THT we free up over $10 mill. We don't have to let Giddey walk to sign Butler, I don't think. We also don't know how much Giddey is going to get. That's also assuming Pat isn't traded, I think they put him on the block too. To have a complete team, we'll probably be at the tax, maybe over it. Trade Coby for a young center. Giddey, Lavine, Butler, Williams, (Blank) with Matas, Ayo, Rookie, Terry Phillips, Smith could really make some noise, especially if the rookie is any good. Team could be very good both ways, instead of just offensively.

Jimmy's probably top 10 in terms of total team impact. The other 9 would cost half our roster to get and cost as much or more.

Is Butler willing to take that? Butler is already signed to 48M this season and 52M next season if he accepts his player option. Butler wants to opt out and get a 2 year 113M extension. If he was willing to opt out and take 2 years 100M instead I think he'd be extended already.

How many of those stars are on good contracts? The players being paid close to 50M or more aren't exactly living up to their contracts. Jokic, Giannis, Dame, and Kat are the only ones I'd say are worth it this season.

With awards being tied to games played stars aim to play 70 games again.

Carter would be stupid to decline his option since he's overpaid despite making only 6-7M. Giddey has a cap hold of 25M. Meaning until we sign Giddey to a new contract, renounce his rights, or Giddey signs somewhere else, he counts as 25M on the cap. There's no way we get Butler while keeping Giddey unless they dump Pat. Vuc, Lonzo, and either Giddey or Pat all need to be off the books without any returning salary to give Butler an offer of at least 40M.

[coldfish]

Coby White + Patrick Williams for John Collins

Collins can opt out after this year but the Bulls would have his bird rights. Utah probably can't get much for him. Who says no?

Ayo
Lavine
Giddey
Collins
Vucevic

[Infinity2152]

What is the highest you're willing to pay Butler? I don't believe he's getting a max, but apparently, that's what he asked for. I think Butler's asking price will come down but it seems he's trying to get as much money as possible.



I don't believe there's an issue with how effective Butler is as a player. Butler continues to miss 1/5 of the season, and coasts for another 10 games. There's a lot of downside in paying him 55M+ at 35. How do you plan on dumping Vuc? You get Butler as a free agent, dumping Vuc for expiring contracts, and letting Giddey walk is the minimum required to pay him at least 50M.

Is ownership okay with paying the tax? Fans don't care about the tax but acknowledge that ownership does.

I'd be comfortable paying Butler up to $50 mill. When you look at the top NBA players, aren't most of them averaging 60 or so games? Days are long gone when the average star played 70 regularly. Some of the top FA this summer are Butler (60 gms this year, 64 year before), Ingram (64 last season, 45 year before), Middleton (55, 33), Giddey (80, 76), Van Fleet (73, 69), Ben Simmons (15, 42), Lonzo Ball (0,0), Harden (72,58). Add in guys like PG13, Leonard, Embid, etc. MPJ is 81, 62, 9, 61, 55 and Ingram's missed more games than Jimmy last few years but we're considering them. Way healthier than Pat Will. Could we do a sign and trade this summer, and send Pat to them to make up some of the cap? Means starting Matas or the rookie, but so what?

I think ownership will pay tax for a winning product. They could probably dump Vuc now but they're waiting on a first, I think Vuc will be gone by trade deadline. Lonzo's $20 mill, plus Carter's $7 mill may be gone (option), between Craig, Duarte, and THT we free up over $10 mill. We don't have to let Giddey walk to sign Butler, I don't think. We also don't know how much Giddey is going to get. That's also assuming Pat isn't traded, I think they put him on the block too and adding Butler makes it an even easier decision. To have a complete team, we'll probably be at the tax, maybe over it. Trade Coby for a young center. Giddey, Lavine, Butler, Williams, (Blank) with Matas, Ayo, Rookie, Terry Phillips, Smith could really make some noise, especially if the rookie is any good. Team could be very good both ways, instead of just offensively.

Jimmy's probably top 10 in terms of total team impact. The other 9 would cost half our roster to get and cost as much or more. Saw a stat from 2022 that showed All Stars averaged 19% missed games, and that's guys who actually played enough to make it, not all NBA stars. NBA stars on pace to miss over 1000 games this season.

If AK isn't willing to rebuild (and I don't think he is) then Butler is an interesting idea. The problem is what will the Heat want for him? Coby doesn't make any sense for Miami so he'd have to go to a third team. Who else...Lonzo for his contract? Other players..? Picks?

Are we also talking about keeping Zach and Vucevic in this scenario?

If it's this season, trying to add Vuc to Ball plus fillers. Considering they could lose Jimmy for nothing, might be acceptable. Eliminates the cap problem next year, we can go over the cap to re-sign our own players. I'd keep Zach, and run him with Jimmy. If it's this summer, move Vuc and try to send them Pat if we can't clear the space. They lose Jimmy, but get a young cheaper 3 and D SF/PF to replace him.

[Dan Z]

I'd be comfortable paying Butler up to $50 mill. When you look at the top NBA players, aren't most of them averaging 60 or so games? Days are long gone when the average star played 70 regularly. Some of the top FA this summer are Butler (60 gms this year, 64 year before), Ingram (64 last season, 45 year before), Middleton (55, 33), Giddey (80, 76), Van Fleet (73, 69), Ben Simmons (15, 42), Lonzo Ball (0,0), Harden (72,58). Add in guys like PG13, Leonard, Embid, etc. MPJ is 81, 62, 9, 61, 55 and Ingram's missed more games than Jimmy last few years but we're considering them. Way healthier than Pat Will. Could we do a sign and trade this summer, and send Pat to them to make up some of the cap? Means starting Matas or the rookie, but so what?

I think ownership will pay tax for a winning product. They could probably dump Vuc now but they're waiting on a first, I think Vuc will be gone by trade deadline. Lonzo's $20 mill, plus Carter's $7 mill may be gone (option), between Craig, Duarte, and THT we free up over $10 mill. We don't have to let Giddey walk to sign Butler, I don't think. We also don't know how much Giddey is going to get. That's also assuming Pat isn't traded, I think they put him on the block too and adding Butler makes it an even easier decision. To have a complete team, we'll probably be at the tax, maybe over it. Trade Coby for a young center. Giddey, Lavine, Butler, Williams, (Blank) with Matas, Ayo, Rookie, Terry Phillips, Smith could really make some noise, especially if the rookie is any good. Team could be very good both ways, instead of just offensively.

Jimmy's probably top 10 in terms of total team impact. The other 9 would cost half our roster to get and cost as much or more. Saw a stat from 2022 that showed All Stars averaged 19% missed games, and that's guys who actually played enough to make it, not all NBA stars. NBA stars on pace to miss over 1000 games this season.

If AK isn't willing to rebuild (and I don't think he is) then Butler is an interesting idea. The problem is what will the Heat want for him? Coby doesn't make any sense for Miami so he'd have to go to a third team. Who else...Lonzo for his contract? Other players..? Picks?

Are we also talking about keeping Zach and Vucevic in this scenario?

If it's this season, trying to add Vuc to Ball plus fillers. Considering they could lose Jimmy for nothing, might be acceptable. Eliminates the cap problem next year, we can go over the cap to re-sign our own players. I'd keep Zach, and run him with Jimmy. If it's this summer, move Vuc and try to send them Pat if we can't clear the space. They lose Jimmy, but get a young cheaper 3 and D SF/PF to replace him.

I think Miami would rather risk losing Butler for nothing than take that deal. It gives them one more playoff run withh him.

In the off season...who knows. I doubt Pat is enough in a sign a trade. Look at what DeRozan went for.

Also, if the Bulls trade for Butler don't they want to keep Vucevic (who is having a career year)?

[Infinity2152]

What is the highest you're willing to pay Butler? I don't believe he's getting a max, but apparently, that's what he asked for. I think Butler's asking price will come down but it seems he's trying to get as much money as possible.



I don't believe there's an issue with how effective Butler is as a player. Butler continues to miss 1/5 of the season, and coasts for another 10 games. There's a lot of downside in paying him 55M+ at 35. How do you plan on dumping Vuc? You get Butler as a free agent, dumping Vuc for expiring contracts, and letting Giddey walk is the minimum required to pay him at least 50M.

Is ownership okay with paying the tax? Fans don't care about the tax but acknowledge that ownership does.

I'd be comfortable paying Butler up to $50 mill. When you look at the top NBA players, aren't most of them averaging 60 or so games? Days are long gone when the average star played 70 regularly. Some of the top FA this summer are Butler (60 gms this year, 64 year before), Ingram (64 last season, 45 year before), Middleton (55, 33), Giddey (80, 76), Van Fleet (73, 69), Ben Simmons (15, 42), Lonzo Ball (0,0), Harden (72,58). Add in guys like PG13, Leonard, Embid, etc. MPJ is 81, 62, 9, 61, 55 and Ingram's missed more games than Jimmy last few years but we're considering them.

I think ownership will pay tax for a winning product. They could probably dump Vuc now but they're waiting on a first, I think Vuc will be gone by trade deadline. Lonzo's $20 mill, plus Carter's $7 mill may be gone (option), between Craig, Duarte, and THT we free up over $10 mill. We don't have to let Giddey walk to sign Butler, I don't think. We also don't know how much Giddey is going to get. That's also assuming Pat isn't traded, I think they put him on the block too. To have a complete team, we'll probably be at the tax, maybe over it. Trade Coby for a young center. Giddey, Lavine, Butler, Williams, (Blank) with Matas, Ayo, Rookie, Terry Phillips, Smith could really make some noise, especially if the rookie is any good. Team could be very good both ways, instead of just offensively.

Jimmy's probably top 10 in terms of total team impact. The other 9 would cost half our roster to get and cost as much or more.

Is Butler willing to take that? Butler is already signed to 48M this season and 52M next season if he accepts his player option. Butler wants to opt out and get a 2 year 113M extension. If he was willing to opt out and take 2 years 100M instead I think he'd be extended already.

How many of those stars are on good contracts? The players being paid close to 50M or more aren't exactly living up to their contracts. Jokic, Giannis, Dame, and Kat are the only ones I'd say are worth it this season.

With awards being tied to games played stars aim to play 70 games again.

Carter would be stupid to decline his option since he's overpaid despite making only 6-7M. Giddey has a cap hold of 25M. Meaning until we sign Giddey to a new contract, renounce his rights, or Giddey signs somewhere else, he counts as 25M on the cap. There's no way we get Butler while keeping Giddey unless they dump Pat. Vuc, Lonzo, and either Giddey or Pat all need to be off the books without any returning salary to give Butler an offer of at least 40M.

Maybe Jimmy takes less with more time on the contract, not sure exactly what his position is. 3yrs/$140 might do it, more guaranteed money. Same with Carter, if he can get a 2-3 year offer from someone. And the stars thing is the point. Most of these high usage starters are missing 20% of their games, it's not uncommon now. This season NBA stars are projected to miss 35% more games than last year. I'd be willing to move Pat if we get Jimmy.

Out of the guys you mention that are worth it, Dame last three years 73, 58, 29. Giannis 73, 63, 67. Kat 62, 29, 74. Only Jokic (79, 69, 74) averaged more than 70 games. But the cost to even GET those guys would be FAR more than what we're talking about Butler, plus you're spending the money. Not arguing Butler is Giannis or Jokic, but he's not missing more games than most starters. There's a reason why they're giving awards for playing 70 games, that's never been an issue before. With Butler, we're mostly talking about cap and players we're thinking about trading anyway. Of those 4, only Giannis is making even close to the defensive impact.

Don't think Jimmy has to be the BEST $50 mill player in the league to be a good deal for us, top 5-10 is fine.

[Infinity2152]

If AK isn't willing to rebuild (and I don't think he is) then Butler is an interesting idea. The problem is what will the Heat want for him? Coby doesn't make any sense for Miami so he'd have to go to a third team. Who else...Lonzo for his contract? Other players..? Picks?

Are we also talking about keeping Zach and Vucevic in this scenario?

If it's this season, trying to add Vuc to Ball plus fillers. Considering they could lose Jimmy for nothing, might be acceptable. Eliminates the cap problem next year, we can go over the cap to re-sign our own players. I'd keep Zach, and run him with Jimmy. If it's this summer, move Vuc and try to send them Pat if we can't clear the space. They lose Jimmy, but get a young cheaper 3 and D SF/PF to replace him.

I think Miami would rather risk losing Butler for nothing than take that deal. It gives them one more playoff run withh him.

In the off season...who knows. I doubt Pat is enough in a sign a trade. Look at what DeRozan went for.

Also, if the Bulls trade for Butler don't they want to keep Vucevic (who is having a career year)?

Miami has no leverage this summer. Vuc is balling, him being locked in for two years is a plus in this instance, and playing with Bam could really work out. Ball's contract is expiring, but good chance he re-signs cheap with whichever team has him, imo. As for Derozan, think we all agree we gave up too much in that trade. The Spurs were like Miami, no leverage. We can all guess Pat's value to the Heat GM this summer, but that's kind of hard to guess accurately. These are just suggestions, though, like I said. Just wanted to have the Butler conversation. White could go too, or be redirected somewhere. Or we could end up with players Miami likes in the Vuc trade instead of cap, and send them.

[Dan Z]

If it's this season, trying to add Vuc to Ball plus fillers. Considering they could lose Jimmy for nothing, might be acceptable. Eliminates the cap problem next year, we can go over the cap to re-sign our own players. I'd keep Zach, and run him with Jimmy. If it's this summer, move Vuc and try to send them Pat if we can't clear the space. They lose Jimmy, but get a young cheaper 3 and D SF/PF to replace him.

I think Miami would rather risk losing Butler for nothing than take that deal. It gives them one more playoff run withh him.

In the off season...who knows. I doubt Pat is enough in a sign a trade. Look at what DeRozan went for.

Also, if the Bulls trade for Butler don't they want to keep Vucevic (who is having a career year)?

Miami has no leverage this summer. Vuc is balling, him being locked in for two years is a plus in this instance, and playing with Bam could really work out. Ball's contract is expiring, but good chance he re-signs cheap with whichever team has him, imo. As for Derozan, think we all agree we gave up too much in that trade. The Spurs were like Miami, no leverage. We can all guess Pat's value to the Heat GM this summer, but that's kind of hard to guess accurately. These are just suggestions, though, like I said. Just wanted to have the Butler conversation. White could go too, or be redirected somewhere.

I just think that the Heat are better of continuing with Butler this season if the only offers are something like Vucevic, PW or Coby. Like I said....might as well give it one more playoff run.

I agree that Butler is an interesting conversation to have, especially since AK doesn't want to rebuild.

[Infinity2152]

I think Miami would rather risk losing Butler for nothing than take that deal. It gives them one more playoff run withh him.

In the off season...who knows. I doubt Pat is enough in a sign a trade. Look at what DeRozan went for.

Also, if the Bulls trade for Butler don't they want to keep Vucevic (who is having a career year)?

Miami has no leverage this summer. Vuc is balling, him being locked in for two years is a plus in this instance, and playing with Bam could really work out. Ball's contract is expiring, but good chance he re-signs cheap with whichever team has him, imo. As for Derozan, think we all agree we gave up too much in that trade. The Spurs were like Miami, no leverage. We can all guess Pat's value to the Heat GM this summer, but that's kind of hard to guess accurately. These are just suggestions, though, like I said. Just wanted to have the Butler conversation. White could go too, or be redirected somewhere.

I just think that the Heat are better of continuing with Butler this season if the only offers are something like Vucevic, PW or Coby. Like I said....might as well give it one more playoff run.

I agree that Butler is an interesting conversation to have, especially since AK doesn't want to rebuild.

You don't think the Heat make the playoffs losing Butler and getting Pat and Vuc, the way Vuc is playing? Think they might have the most dominant frontcourt in the league, three point shooting goes way up, then you add in Pat playing his natural position at SF, no need for rebounds. Rozier, Herro, Williams, Bam, Vuc. They have decent depth on the bench too. Williams is waaaay younger and way cheaper. Not sure, but thought I read awhile ago the problem between Butler and the Heat was years, not money. Heat don't give older players 3 years. If that's the case, and he's insistent on getting three years, they're getting more assets trading him now than this summer, whether it's from us or not.

[Dan Z]

Miami has no leverage this summer. Vuc is balling, him being locked in for two years is a plus in this instance, and playing with Bam could really work out. Ball's contract is expiring, but good chance he re-signs cheap with whichever team has him, imo. As for Derozan, think we all agree we gave up too much in that trade. The Spurs were like Miami, no leverage. We can all guess Pat's value to the Heat GM this summer, but that's kind of hard to guess accurately. These are just suggestions, though, like I said. Just wanted to have the Butler conversation. White could go too, or be redirected somewhere.

I just think that the Heat are better of continuing with Butler this season if the only offers are something like Vucevic, PW or Coby. Like I said....might as well give it one more playoff run.

I agree that Butler is an interesting conversation to have, especially since AK doesn't want to rebuild.

You don't think the Heat make the playoffs losing Butler and getting Pat and Vuc, the way Vuc is playing? Think they might have the most dominant frontcourt in the league, three point shooting goes way up, then you add in Pat playing his natural position at SF, no need for rebounds. Rozier, Herro, Williams, Bam, Vuc. They have decent depth on the bench too. Williams is waaaay younger and way cheaper. Not sure, but thought I read awhile ago the problem between Butler and the Heat was years, not money. Heat don't give older players 3 years. If that's the case, and he's insistent on getting three years, they're getting more assets trading him now than this summer, whether it's from us or not.

I think they still make the playoffs, but without Butler they'd no longer have a star player who can push further (I know he"s older now, but Butler helped get them to two finals. PW and Vucevic aren't doing that).

[Infinity2152]

I just think that the Heat are better of continuing with Butler this season if the only offers are something like Vucevic, PW or Coby. Like I said....might as well give it one more playoff run.

I agree that Butler is an interesting conversation to have, especially since AK doesn't want to rebuild.

You don't think the Heat make the playoffs losing Butler and getting Pat and Vuc, the way Vuc is playing? Think they might have the most dominant frontcourt in the league, three point shooting goes way up, then you add in Pat playing his natural position at SF, no need for rebounds. Rozier, Herro, Williams, Bam, Vuc. They have decent depth on the bench too. Williams is waaaay younger and way cheaper. Not sure, but thought I read awhile ago the problem between Butler and the Heat was years, not money. Heat don't give older players 3 years. If that's the case, and he's insistent on getting three years, they're getting more assets trading him now than this summer, whether it's from us or not.

I think they still make the playoffs, but without Butler they'd no longer have a star player who can push further (I know he"s older now, but Butler helped get them to two finals. PW and Vucevic aren't doing that).

You're damn right, that's why I want him! I see the downsides, but that ceiling could be pretty damn high. Would be a great homecoming, lot of Bulls fans still have a lot of love for Butler, myself included. Come back to the team that drafted you and lead them to greatness, HOF career. Be more worried about his personality than anything ability or age wise. But practices between him and Zach, two stars who got traded for each other, could be epic.

[2weekswithpay]

I'd be comfortable paying Butler up to $50 mill. When you look at the top NBA players, aren't most of them averaging 60 or so games? Days are long gone when the average star played 70 regularly. Some of the top FA this summer are Butler (60 gms this year, 64 year before), Ingram (64 last season, 45 year before), Middleton (55, 33), Giddey (80, 76), Van Fleet (73, 69), Ben Simmons (15, 42), Lonzo Ball (0,0), Harden (72,58). Add in guys like PG13, Leonard, Embid, etc. MPJ is 81, 62, 9, 61, 55 and Ingram's missed more games than Jimmy last few years but we're considering them.

I think ownership will pay tax for a winning product. They could probably dump Vuc now but they're waiting on a first, I think Vuc will be gone by trade deadline. Lonzo's $20 mill, plus Carter's $7 mill may be gone (option), between Craig, Duarte, and THT we free up over $10 mill. We don't have to let Giddey walk to sign Butler, I don't think. We also don't know how much Giddey is going to get. That's also assuming Pat isn't traded, I think they put him on the block too. To have a complete team, we'll probably be at the tax, maybe over it. Trade Coby for a young center. Giddey, Lavine, Butler, Williams, (Blank) with Matas, Ayo, Rookie, Terry Phillips, Smith could really make some noise, especially if the rookie is any good. Team could be very good both ways, instead of just offensively.

Jimmy's probably top 10 in terms of total team impact. The other 9 would cost half our roster to get and cost as much or more.

Is Butler willing to take that? Butler is already signed to 48M this season and 52M next season if he accepts his player option. Butler wants to opt out and get a 2 year 113M extension. If he was willing to opt out and take 2 years 100M instead I think he'd be extended already.

How many of those stars are on good contracts? The players being paid close to 50M or more aren't exactly living up to their contracts. Jokic, Giannis, Dame, and Kat are the only ones I'd say are worth it this season.

With awards being tied to games played stars aim to play 70 games again.

Carter would be stupid to decline his option since he's overpaid despite making only 6-7M. Giddey has a cap hold of 25M. Meaning until we sign Giddey to a new contract, renounce his rights, or Giddey signs somewhere else, he counts as 25M on the cap. There's no way we get Butler while keeping Giddey unless they dump Pat. Vuc, Lonzo, and either Giddey or Pat all need to be off the books without any returning salary to give Butler an offer of at least 40M.

Maybe Jimmy takes less with more time on the contract, not sure exactly what his position is. 3yrs/$140 might do it, more guaranteed money. Same with Carter, if he can get a 2-3 year offer from someone. And the stars thing is the point. Most of these high usage starters are missing 20% of their games, it's not uncommon now. This season NBA stars are projected to miss 35% more games than last year. I'd be willing to move Pat if we get Jimmy.

Out of the guys you mention that are worth it, Dame last three years 73, 58, 29. Giannis 73, 63, 67. Kat 62, 29, 74. Only Jokic (79, 69, 74) averaged more than 70 games. But the cost to even GET those guys would be FAR more than what we're talking about Butler, plus you're spending the money. Not arguing Butler is Giannis or Jokic, but he's not missing more games than most starters. There's a reason why they're giving awards for playing 70 games, that's never been an issue before. With Butler, we're mostly talking about cap and players we're thinking about trading anyway. Of those 4, only Giannis is making even close to the defensive impact.

Don't think Jimmy has to be the BEST $50 mill player in the league to be a good deal for us, top 5-10 is fine.

Butler from the looks of it wants to maximize his earnings. He probably would take a bit less annually for an extra year but there aren't many that would give him that.

Curry, Lebron, PG, and Durant are all 34/35 or older, and each one is either underperforming or has dealt with injuries. The only guys making close to 50M that are playing at an All-NBA level are the four I mention, Kat, Jokic, Giannis, and Dame. I'm saying these older guys aren't living up to their 50M contracts this season.

[Dan Z]

You don't think the Heat make the playoffs losing Butler and getting Pat and Vuc, the way Vuc is playing? Think they might have the most dominant frontcourt in the league, three point shooting goes way up, then you add in Pat playing his natural position at SF, no need for rebounds. Rozier, Herro, Williams, Bam, Vuc. They have decent depth on the bench too. Williams is waaaay younger and way cheaper. Not sure, but thought I read awhile ago the problem between Butler and the Heat was years, not money. Heat don't give older players 3 years. If that's the case, and he's insistent on getting three years, they're getting more assets trading him now than this summer, whether it's from us or not.

I think they still make the playoffs, but without Butler they'd no longer have a star player who can push further (I know he"s older now, but Butler helped get them to two finals. PW and Vucevic aren't doing that).

You're damn right, that's why I want him! I see the downsides, but that ceiling could be pretty damn high. Would be a great homecoming, lot of Bulls fans still have a lot of love for Butler, myself included. Come back to the team that drafted you and lead them to greatness, HOF career. Be more worried about his personality than anything ability or age wise. But practices between him and Zach, two stars who got traded for each other, could be epic.

I bet his personality would be fine. Maybe he'd even help the young guys push themselves?

It's a shame that they didn't build a better team with Jimmy when he was here. Why did anyone think old Wade was a good idea? Bleh.

[Chi town]

Coby White + Patrick Williams for John Collins

Collins can opt out after this year but the Bulls would have his bird rights. Utah probably can't get much for him. Who says no?

Ayo
Lavine
Giddey
Collins
Vucevic

No. All day long.

Lots of much better trades out there for Coby alone.

[jnrjr79]

I think they still make the playoffs, but without Butler they'd no longer have a star player who can push further (I know he"s older now, but Butler helped get them to two finals. PW and Vucevic aren't doing that).

You're damn right, that's why I want him! I see the downsides, but that ceiling could be pretty damn high. Would be a great homecoming, lot of Bulls fans still have a lot of love for Butler, myself included. Come back to the team that drafted you and lead them to greatness, HOF career. Be more worried about his personality than anything ability or age wise. But practices between him and Zach, two stars who got traded for each other, could be epic.

I bet his personality would be fine. Maybe he'd even help the young guys push themselves?

It's a shame that they didn't build a better team with Jimmy when he was here. Why did anyone think old Wade was a good idea? Bleh.

Worth noting Jimmy Butler is a year older than Wade was when the Bulls signed him.

[WindyCityBorn]

Coby White + Patrick Williams for John Collins

Collins can opt out after this year but the Bulls would have his bird rights. Utah probably can't get much for him. Who says no?

Ayo
Lavine
Giddey
Collins
Vucevic

Me say Hell no.

[Infinity2152]

Is Butler willing to take that? Butler is already signed to 48M this season and 52M next season if he accepts his player option. Butler wants to opt out and get a 2 year 113M extension. If he was willing to opt out and take 2 years 100M instead I think he'd be extended already.

How many of those stars are on good contracts? The players being paid close to 50M or more aren't exactly living up to their contracts. Jokic, Giannis, Dame, and Kat are the only ones I'd say are worth it this season.

With awards being tied to games played stars aim to play 70 games again.

Carter would be stupid to decline his option since he's overpaid despite making only 6-7M. Giddey has a cap hold of 25M. Meaning until we sign Giddey to a new contract, renounce his rights, or Giddey signs somewhere else, he counts as 25M on the cap. There's no way we get Butler while keeping Giddey unless they dump Pat. Vuc, Lonzo, and either Giddey or Pat all need to be off the books without any returning salary to give Butler an offer of at least 40M.

Maybe Jimmy takes less with more time on the contract, not sure exactly what his position is. 3yrs/$140 might do it, more guaranteed money. Same with Carter, if he can get a 2-3 year offer from someone. And the stars thing is the point. Most of these high usage starters are missing 20% of their games, it's not uncommon now. This season NBA stars are projected to miss 35% more games than last year. I'd be willing to move Pat if we get Jimmy.

Out of the guys you mention that are worth it, Dame last three years 73, 58, 29. Giannis 73, 63, 67. Kat 62, 29, 74. Only Jokic (79, 69, 74) averaged more than 70 games. But the cost to even GET those guys would be FAR more than what we're talking about Butler, plus you're spending the money. Not arguing Butler is Giannis or Jokic, but he's not missing more games than most starters. There's a reason why they're giving awards for playing 70 games, that's never been an issue before. With Butler, we're mostly talking about cap and players we're thinking about trading anyway. Of those 4, only Giannis is making even close to the defensive impact.

Don't think Jimmy has to be the BEST $50 mill player in the league to be a good deal for us, top 5-10 is fine.

Butler from the looks of it wants to maximize his earnings. He probably would take a bit less annually for an extra year but there aren't many that would give him that.

Curry, Lebron, PG, and Durant are all 34/35 or older, and each one is either underperforming or has dealt with injuries. The only guys making close to 50M that are playing at an All-NBA level are the four I mention, Kat, Jokic, Giannis, and Dame. I'm saying these older guys aren't living up to their 50M contracts this season.

I get all that. But can you win a championship with Lebron, Curry or Durant performing at their present level? With them as the 1A, as long as they have support around them? I think so. Can't look at the Warriors or Lakers and say those teams are built to win. Saying they're not performing up to their contracts, based on what? Because they're the 9th and 10th best player in the league instead of number 2? 27 players will make over $40 mill this season, AD will make $60 mill. $50 mill is not going to automatically get you a top 5 player anymore.

It's not like if we don't spend $50 mill on Butler, we get Giannis or Jokic. We get whatever the Bulls decide to spend $50 mill on, probably Pat Will and another $25 mill mid player.

Lebron is putting up 23, 9 and 8, while shooting 36% from three, pretty high for him. Curry's putting up 22, 6 and 5 , 41% 3pt in only 30 minutes on a weak team. Durant: 26, 7 and 4, 42% from three. Hard to say they're not earning their money. Curry's getting double teamed all game, who's the second scorer on the Warriors now, Kuminga? If those guys were FA this summer, (like Lebron is), won't they all get at least $50 mill offers from multiple teams? And I mean, Lebron is 40, not 34. Kd and Steph are older too. Most of the NBA not on rookie contracts are making more than we'd say they're worth. On this team alone, Ball, Vuc, Lavine, Pat, Carter, Duarte, we're expecting to be mad at Giddey's contract and he hasn't even gotten it yet, lmao! Because it won't be lower than Pat's.

Are we locked in as a play in team with Butler, or could we be much more?

[coldfish]

Coby White + Patrick Williams for John Collins

Collins can opt out after this year but the Bulls would have his bird rights. Utah probably can't get much for him. Who says no?

Ayo
Lavine
Giddey
Collins
Vucevic

No. All day long.

Lots of much better trades out there for Coby alone.

OK, Coby and Patrick for Zion. Remember, Zion's huge contract has riders in it for his weight and injury status. If he let's himself go, his deal can be released.

Ayo / Ball
Lavine
Giddey / Matas
Zion
Vucevic / Smith