Bulls @ Celtics 6:30pm CT Dec. 19th 2024

[Dan Z]

I think 95% of us wanted to go all in for Flagg. The reality of the situation is that this FO has no intention of tanking. If that's the reality of the situation, you might as well enjoy beating the defending champs.

Winning against Boston is great and doesn't necessarily have to effect the tank (if that's what we're calling it). However, I'm responding because of where the Bulls currently are in the standings and how the F.O has operated since they got here.

Let's say the Bulls end up giving their 2025 pick to the Spurs (either by losing in the play-in or the 1st round). What's the plan going forward?

In the off season Giddey will be up for a new contract. How much will he get? Giddey at 8 million (his current salary) has much different value than 20+ million a year.

Vucevic will be a year older (35 years old). Will he be able to have another career year (which he's currently having)? Probably not.

Will Zach still be here and, if so, will he be able to remain healthy next year (while playing at a high level)?

Ayo and Coby will be in the last year of their contracts. What's the plan with them? Re-sign them? Wait until the end of next year?

Next year could be essentially the same team, but a little older and most likely with less health luck. Maybe Ayo shows improvement? My guess is Coby is still inconsistent (seems to be who he is). Patrick Williams too (will he take a leap forward? He's been in the league for 5 years). Any development from Matas would be good, but probably won't change things in the next year or so.

I don't mean to sound negative, but the direction that the team has been in hasn't worked. AK has been here five seasons and only made the playoffs once (losing to the Bucks.). It could be two playoffs if they make it this season.

Amen to this.

On some of your questions - I think Zach can probably remain healthy and productive and keep playing at a high level.

I also view it as basically impossible that Vooch doesn't revert to the mean, at least to some degree.

Ayo & Coby, to my understanding, are not extension eligible and will be UFAs no matter what. So, the Bulls will have to compete with the market. This, IMO, is why one of them, preferably Coby, should get shipped off this season.

Broadly speaking, if no trades are made and the Bulls are good enough to lose the pick, then they project to have another year where they do not improve the team at all, except via internal improvements, and even those have downside if you're talking about Ayo and Coby, who may leave or you may not be able to pay.

Standing still definitely makes no sense. I prefer something in the tear-down direction, but doing something like trading Coby and Pat or whoever for some other piece probably makes more sense if you want immediate competitiveness than simply sitting on your hands.

I agree. If they're not going to rebuild then they might as well do what they can to be competitive. It's not my preference, but maybe try to trade for someone like Brandon Ingram? That is if the cost isn't high.

[jc23]

i wanna lose but also enjoy beating boston

[Red8911]

Bulls are bound to lose a pick to the spurs whether it’s this season, next season or the one after that.

There’s no getting away from it since the trade was made for Demar and no reason to lose on purpose every year just to keep the pick.

If the team isn’t good enough then by all means just give up for the season but if they are in a playoff position just let them keep winning and fk the pick.

I see it as a positive to be good enough to make the playoffs. All the young guys will grow and everyone’s value will be higher.

I get that another star is needed and that’s AKs job to figure out if it’s not through the draft. Who knows sooner or later you can trade a couple of those players for a star or a star will want to join this team after seeing them play good basketball.

Even Barkley had nothing but good things to say about the Bulls this season but we have our fans complaining about every win, it’s getting a lil ridiculous.

[WindyCityBorn]

Zach has to be strong consideration for all-star right? At first I didn’t think we would win enough games, but now it’s very possible we could be above .500 at the break.

[HomoSapien]

If the Bulls end up giving their 2025 pick to the Spurs then it'll be a wasted season (outside of any development from Matas). They need to think long term instead of short.

I think 95% of us wanted to go all in for Flagg. The reality of the situation is that this FO has no intention of tanking. If that's the reality of the situation, you might as well enjoy beating the defending champs.

Winning against Boston is great and doesn't necessarily have to effect the tank (if that's what we're calling it). However, I'm responding because of where the Bulls currently are in the standings and how the F.O has operated since they got here.

Let's say the Bulls end up giving their 2025 pick to the Spurs (either by losing in the play-in or the 1st round). What's the plan going forward?

In the off season Giddey will be up for a new contract. How much will he get? Giddey at 8 million (his current salary) has much different value than 20+ million a year.

Vucevic will be a year older (35 years old). Will he be able to have another career year (which he's currently having)? Probably not.

Will Zach still be here and, if so, will he be able to remain healthy next year (while playing at a high level)?

Ayo and Coby will be in the last year of their contracts. What's the plan with them? Re-sign them? Wait until the end of next year?

Next year could be essentially the same team, but a little older and most likely with less health luck. Maybe Ayo shows improvement? My guess is Coby is still inconsistent (seems to be who he is). Patrick Williams too (will he take a leap forward? He's been in the league for 5 years). Any development from Matas would be good, but probably won't change things in the next year or so.

I don't mean to sound negative, but the direction that the team has been in hasn't worked. AK has been here five seasons and only made the playoffs once (losing to the Bucks.). It could be two playoffs if they make it this season.

No, I'm totally with you. In an ideal world, we're tanking and trading everyone that doesn't have a future here for draft capital. That SHOULD be the plan. But it's not... at least not yet. So given all that, I guess the only thing to do is to hope that this team is better than we all think it is.

I'm not sure what the plan is, but I think realistically it involves internal improvements from guys like Ayo, White, Giddey, Pat, and Buzelis. In order for this plan to work, the only path forward is if one of these guys takes a big Jimmy Butler-esque step forward. Most likely Buzelis is the guy who can make the biggest step, but I'm cautiously optimistic that Ayo has another level in him as well. Zach's still 29, so there's a good chance that there's a ton of all-star level basketball left in him if his health allows it.

If Zach stays, then we probably need to think about dangling Coby in trades. If Pat can find any sort of consistency, then maybe a package of Coby and Pat can bring back something notable. Pairing one of them with Ball's expiring contract might also be enough to bring back a guy like Ingram.

Other than that, I think you have to keep targeting underappreciated young guys like Jalen Smith with the MLE and hope that their lottery talent starts to come through.

Again, this isn't my ideal plan but the one I think is being executed by AKME.

[Dan Z]

Bulls are bound to lose a pick to the spurs whether it’s this season, next season or the one after that.

There’s no getting away from it since the trade was made for Demar and no reason to lose on purpose every year just to keep the pick.

If the team isn’t good enough then by all means just give up for the season but if they are in a playoff position just let them keep winning and fk the pick.

I see it as a positive to be good enough to make the playoffs. All the young guys will grow and everyone’s value will be higher.

I get that another star is needed and that’s AKs job to figure out if it’s not through the draft. Who knows sooner or later you can trade a couple of those players for a star or a star will want to join this team after seeing them play good basketball.

Even Barkley had nothing but good things to say about the Bulls this season but we have our fans complaining about every win, it’s getting a lil ridiculous.

Nobody wants to lose every year. The reason why fans want to keep the pick is because it's suppose to be a good draft and developing a player takes time. Might as well start that process asap rather than delay it.

Which stars do you see in the near future that will ask to be traded to the Bulls?

As for the current young players on the roster how much more room do you think they have to grow? Patrick Williams is his 5th season in the NBA. Coby is in his 6th and Ayo is in his 4th. Giddey id in his 4th.

In the off season Giddey is up for a contract extension. Giddey at his current salary (8 million) will most likely be more valuable than whatever he gets going forward (20+ a year?).

I don't think star players are looking at an easy first round exit team and thinking it'd be a great place to go.

[Repeat 3-peat]

This team simply needs to pick a lane. No BS'ing around and trying to stay in the middle of the Play-in spot all season. Either make a move to be a legit playoff team(6th seed) or sell players off. The latter is the correct decision Imo.

[Dan Z]

I think 95% of us wanted to go all in for Flagg. The reality of the situation is that this FO has no intention of tanking. If that's the reality of the situation, you might as well enjoy beating the defending champs.

Winning against Boston is great and doesn't necessarily have to effect the tank (if that's what we're calling it). However, I'm responding because of where the Bulls currently are in the standings and how the F.O has operated since they got here.

Let's say the Bulls end up giving their 2025 pick to the Spurs (either by losing in the play-in or the 1st round). What's the plan going forward?

In the off season Giddey will be up for a new contract. How much will he get? Giddey at 8 million (his current salary) has much different value than 20+ million a year.

Vucevic will be a year older (35 years old). Will he be able to have another career year (which he's currently having)? Probably not.

Will Zach still be here and, if so, will he be able to remain healthy next year (while playing at a high level)?

Ayo and Coby will be in the last year of their contracts. What's the plan with them? Re-sign them? Wait until the end of next year?

Next year could be essentially the same team, but a little older and most likely with less health luck. Maybe Ayo shows improvement? My guess is Coby is still inconsistent (seems to be who he is). Patrick Williams too (will he take a leap forward? He's been in the league for 5 years). Any development from Matas would be good, but probably won't change things in the next year or so.

I don't mean to sound negative, but the direction that the team has been in hasn't worked. AK has been here five seasons and only made the playoffs once (losing to the Bucks.). It could be two playoffs if they make it this season.

No, I'm totally with you. In an ideal world, we're tanking and trading everyone that doesn't have a future here for draft capital. That SHOULD be the plan. But it's not... at least not yet. So given all that, I guess the only thing to do is to hope that this team is better than we all think it is.

I'm not sure what the plan is, but I think realistically it involves internal improvements from guys like Ayo, White, Giddey, Pat, and Buzelis. In order for this plan to work, the only path forward is if one of these guys takes a big Jimmy Butler-esque step forward. Most likely Buzelis is the guy who can make the biggest step, but I'm cautiously optimistic that Ayo has another level in him as well. Zach's still 29, so there's a good chance that there's a ton of all-star level basketball left in him if his health allows it.

If Zach stays, then we probably need to think about dangling Coby in trades. If Pat can find any sort of consistency, then maybe a package of Coby and Pat can bring back something notable. Pairing one of them with Ball's expiring contract might also be enough to bring back a guy like Ingram.

Other than that, I think you have to keep targeting underappreciated young guys like Jalen Smith with the MLE and hope that their lottery talent starts to come through.

Again, this isn't my ideal plan but the one I think is being executed by AKME.

One issue with trading Patrick Williams is: who plays PF? Then again thats been an ongoing issue.

I agree with everything you said and its a sad direction for the team. Too much hope that a current player on the roster, or over looked free agent, will take a leap forward to all-star. Right now I dont see that with anyone on the roster.

[cocktailswith_2short]

Winning against Boston is great and doesn't necessarily have to effect the tank (if that's what we're calling it). However, I'm responding because of where the Bulls currently are in the standings and how the F.O has operated since they got here.

Let's say the Bulls end up giving their 2025 pick to the Spurs (either by losing in the play-in or the 1st round). What's the plan going forward?

In the off season Giddey will be up for a new contract. How much will he get? Giddey at 8 million (his current salary) has much different value than 20+ million a year.

Vucevic will be a year older (35 years old). Will he be able to have another career year (which he's currently having)? Probably not.

Will Zach still be here and, if so, will he be able to remain healthy next year (while playing at a high level)?

Ayo and Coby will be in the last year of their contracts. What's the plan with them? Re-sign them? Wait until the end of next year?

Next year could be essentially the same team, but a little older and most likely with less health luck. Maybe Ayo shows improvement? My guess is Coby is still inconsistent (seems to be who he is). Patrick Williams too (will he take a leap forward? He's been in the league for 5 years). Any development from Matas would be good, but probably won't change things in the next year or so.

I don't mean to sound negative, but the direction that the team has been in hasn't worked. AK has been here five seasons and only made the playoffs once (losing to the Bucks.). It could be two playoffs if they make it this season.

No, I'm totally with you. In an ideal world, we're tanking and trading everyone that doesn't have a future here for draft capital. That SHOULD be the plan. But it's not... at least not yet. So given all that, I guess the only thing to do is to hope that this team is better than we all think it is.

I'm not sure what the plan is, but I think realistically it involves internal improvements from guys like Ayo, White, Giddey, Pat, and Buzelis. In order for this plan to work, the only path forward is if one of these guys takes a big Jimmy Butler-esque step forward. Most likely Buzelis is the guy who can make the biggest step, but I'm cautiously optimistic that Ayo has another level in him as well. Zach's still 29, so there's a good chance that there's a ton of all-star level basketball left in him if his health allows it.

If Zach stays, then we probably need to think about dangling Coby in trades. If Pat can find any sort of consistency, then maybe a package of Coby and Pat can bring back something notable. Pairing one of them with Ball's expiring contract might also be enough to bring back a guy like Ingram.

Other than that, I think you have to keep targeting underappreciated young guys like Jalen Smith with the MLE and hope that their lottery talent starts to come through.

Again, this isn't my ideal plan but the one I think is being executed by AKME.

One issue with trading Patrick Williams is: who plays PF? Then again thats been an ongoing issue.

I agree with everything you said and its a sad direction for the team. Too much hope that a current player on the roster, or over looked free agent, will take a leap forward to all-star. Right now I dont see that with anyone on the roster.

Ayo has leveled up . Matas is just a rookie but I suspect it won't be long before he levels up himself . We need them to put in the work but if they do well have a very deep team with some toughness and grit . It's better than bottoming out . Will this group win a chip probably not . We need a lucky trade or fa strike to really contend . Far easier than draft luck .

[Chi town]

Harper - 62% TS% and a 0.95 Ast/Usg ratio. Does appear to be a good scorer, not so much a good playmaker

Flagg - 50% TS% and a 0.77 Ast/Usg ratio. Bad scorer and and bad playmaker

Kasparas - 64% TS% and 1.36 Ast/Usg - someone who at the college level is living up to your claim of a lead handler/scorer/playmaker

Tre Johnson - 60% TS% and a 0.44 Ast/Usg ratio. Another good scorer but bad playmaker. 31 minutes a night, a 30% usage rate and only 2 assists per game. This guys a black hole.

Ace Bailey - 52% TS% and a 0.12 Ast/Usg rate. Currently doesn't do anything at a high level.

Ben Saraf - 51% TS% and a 1.14 Ast/Usg ratio - terrible scorer

Egor Dmin - 61% TS% and a 1.5 Ast/Usg ratio. Probably the first guy you named who's been good as both a playmaker and a scorer - but his production has recently tanked as his schedule has gotten harder. Will be interesting to see how that trends.


The stats don't back up your claims

How many games have you watched?

Have you seen the systems these teams run? The talent or lack thereof?

Stats tell a story but def not the full story.

I have watched enough to know that the talent level in college is so far below the NBA that unless a guy is dominant in college he isn't going to be a first option in the NBA. You have 3 guys on that list with a TS& between 50 and 52. Not FG%. TS%. No reason to believe that can ever translate to a number 1 option in the NBA.

Zach wasn’t dominant in college. He was a skinny freshman that put up pedestrian numbers. The skill and body of work was there though.

That’s what you look for in these guys.

[ImSlower]

One issue with trading Patrick Williams is: who plays PF? Then again thats been an ongoing issue.

I agree with everything you said and its a sad direction for the team. Too much hope that a current player on the roster, or over looked free agent, will take a leap forward to all-star. Right now I dont see that with anyone on the roster.

My own vision is to move Smith to starting PF and back him up with a serious rim protector - who can still drift out to his 3's. I hear there's a skinny French guy that'd be perfect! My ideal, non-MVP target would be JJJ, or even just Myles Turner. Alas those are not going to happen, either - nor do I see a draft prospect in that mold even if we secure an ~8ish pick.

I'm also incredibly biased as I haven't liked Pat Williams since he put on the Bulls cap, and he's only impressed me less and less every year. Guy might be a bottom 5, most disliked Bull ever for me at this point. So it's tough for me to be objective about trade possibilities involving him. Even if all three guys hit a good level on their projections, I don't know if the Buzelis/Williams/Smith frontcourt can stop an All-NBA big.

[Chi town]

If the Bulls end up giving their 2025 pick to the Spurs then it'll be a wasted season (outside of any development from Matas). They need to think long term instead of short.

I fully agree. However, I wouldn’t call it a waste if we get a 1st round win. Not play in win. 1st round win.

I think this team when healthy could have a very competitive 1st round series. Don’t know if they could win.

If the Bulls make to the first round of the playoffs there's a good chance that they'll easily lose. After that then what does the team do? Continue more of the same? AK has been here five years and only made the playoffs once (losing to the Bucks). It'll be twice if you count this season.

Bulls can still trade all of their players on draft night for picks. Not Giddey as he will be a RFA. Not Zo he will be UFA.

Zach will have a lot more suitors then as he’s much easier to trade for.

Don’t think Vuc gets you anything unless you take back bad money.

Coby only has one year left on his deal. Same for Ayo.

This would be classic AK of waiting for all his assets to diminish to basement level prices. It’s totally what I see him doing.

[Dan Z]

No, I'm totally with you. In an ideal world, we're tanking and trading everyone that doesn't have a future here for draft capital. That SHOULD be the plan. But it's not... at least not yet. So given all that, I guess the only thing to do is to hope that this team is better than we all think it is.

I'm not sure what the plan is, but I think realistically it involves internal improvements from guys like Ayo, White, Giddey, Pat, and Buzelis. In order for this plan to work, the only path forward is if one of these guys takes a big Jimmy Butler-esque step forward. Most likely Buzelis is the guy who can make the biggest step, but I'm cautiously optimistic that Ayo has another level in him as well. Zach's still 29, so there's a good chance that there's a ton of all-star level basketball left in him if his health allows it.

If Zach stays, then we probably need to think about dangling Coby in trades. If Pat can find any sort of consistency, then maybe a package of Coby and Pat can bring back something notable. Pairing one of them with Ball's expiring contract might also be enough to bring back a guy like Ingram.

Other than that, I think you have to keep targeting underappreciated young guys like Jalen Smith with the MLE and hope that their lottery talent starts to come through.

Again, this isn't my ideal plan but the one I think is being executed by AKME.

One issue with trading Patrick Williams is: who plays PF? Then again thats been an ongoing issue.

I agree with everything you said and its a sad direction for the team. Too much hope that a current player on the roster, or over looked free agent, will take a leap forward to all-star. Right now I dont see that with anyone on the roster.

Ayo has leveled up . Matas is just a rookie but I suspect it won't be long before he levels up himself . We need them to put in the work but if they do well have a very deep team with some toughness and grit . It's better than bottoming out . Will this group win a chip probably not . We need a lucky trade or fa strike to really contend . Far easier than draft luck .

Statisically Ayo isn't better this year than last, but I think he'll keep improving and that will change by seasons end. Do you think he has all-star potential going forward? I don't, even though I think he's a good player.

Matas has potential, but right now it's unknown. He's the new guy. I agree that AK should keep both and continue to develop them.

As for a lucky trade or FA signing where do you see that happening? In recent years most players re-sign with their team and then ask for a trade. That means the Bulls will have to have assets to trade, plus be a desireable location. Right now they have a few assets (that will change once Giddey signs a new deal and Coby/Ayos value goes down the closer they are to extensions) and the Bulls aren't a destination that players want to go to (losing seasons, the weather, etc...I say that and like Chicago).

[jnrjr79]

Bulls are bound to lose a pick to the spurs whether it’s this season, next season or the one after that.

There’s no getting away from it since the trade was made for Demar and no reason to lose on purpose every year just to keep the pick.

If the team isn’t good enough then by all means just give up for the season but if they are in a playoff position just let them keep winning and fk the picks.

I think the idea is 1) when you have a mediocre team like the Bulls that needs a talent infusion, a pick this year is worth more than a pick next year or the year after, so there is a time value to keeping it now and losing it later, and 2) this draft seems to be particularly strong, so there is additional incentive to have a first rounder this year as compared to other years.

[Stratmaster]

How many games have you watched?

Have you seen the systems these teams run? The talent or lack thereof?

Stats tell a story but def not the full story.

I have watched enough to know that the talent level in college is so far below the NBA that unless a guy is dominant in college he isn't going to be a first option in the NBA. You have 3 guys on that list with a TS& between 50 and 52. Not FG%. TS%. No reason to believe that can ever translate to a number 1 option in the NBA.

Zach wasn’t dominant in college. He was a skinny freshman that put up pedestrian numbers. The skill and body of work was there though.

That’s what you look for in these guys.

Lavine was a #13 pick and his ts٪ in college was .545. No one tanked to draft Zach. Zach is not a franchise player and no one here seems to think he can ever be a first option. And more than likely maybe one of those players will emerge and get to Zach's level.

[WindyCityBorn]

This team simply needs to pick a lane. No BS'ing around and trying to stay in the middle of the Play-in spot all season. Either make a move to be a legit playoff team(6th seed) or sell players off. The latter is the correct decision Imo.

Which players get sold off assuming Zach is here to stay? Vuc and who else?

Also tanking is already ruined.

[Dan Z]

One issue with trading Patrick Williams is: who plays PF? Then again thats been an ongoing issue.

I agree with everything you said and its a sad direction for the team. Too much hope that a current player on the roster, or over looked free agent, will take a leap forward to all-star. Right now I dont see that with anyone on the roster.

My own vision is to move Smith to starting PF and back him up with a serious rim protector - who can still drift out to his 3's. I hear there's a skinny French guy that'd be perfect! My ideal, non-MVP target would be JJJ, or even just Myles Turner. Alas those are not going to happen, either - nor do I see a draft prospect in that mold even if we secure an ~8ish pick.

I'm also incredibly biased as I haven't liked Pat Williams since he put on the Bulls cap, and he's only impressed me less and less every year. Guy might be a bottom 5, most disliked Bull ever for me at this point. So it's tough for me to be objective about trade possibilities involving him. Even if all three guys hit a good level on their projections, I don't know if the Buzelis/Williams/Smith frontcourt can stop an All-NBA big.

He's not in the same mold, but New Orleans just drafted Yves Missi at #21, so it might be possible to find a decent center in the draft.

Even Myles Turner was taken at #11, which is where the Bulls picked in the last draft.

I agree that the team needs better bigs overall

[Dan Z]

This team simply needs to pick a lane. No BS'ing around and trying to stay in the middle of the Play-in spot all season. Either make a move to be a legit playoff team(6th seed) or sell players off. The latter is the correct decision Imo.

Which players get sold off assuming Zach is here to stay? Vuc and who else?

Also tanking is already ruined.

Coby seems like obvious choice. What kind of value does he have?

Maybe Lonzo for contract reasons?

I think the tank can still work, but they need luck. Last year Atlanta wasn't the worst team in the league.

[Chi town]

I have watched enough to know that the talent level in college is so far below the NBA that unless a guy is dominant in college he isn't going to be a first option in the NBA. You have 3 guys on that list with a TS& between 50 and 52. Not FG%. TS%. No reason to believe that can ever translate to a number 1 option in the NBA.

Zach wasn’t dominant in college. He was a skinny freshman that put up pedestrian numbers. The skill and body of work was there though.

That’s what you look for in these guys.

Lavine was a #13 pick and his ts٪ in college was .545. No one tanked to draft Zach. Zach is not a franchise player and no one here seems to think he can ever be a first option. And more than likely maybe one of those players will emerge and get to Zach's level.

Every team has a 1st option. They may not be elite but they nonetheless are a 1st option. Many of these players were not tanked for. They can be found all over the draft. SGA and Joker and Giannis show that.

The point is there is in this draft players that have the offensive skill and game to develop (ceiling) into that offensive engine of a 1st option. This draft is stacked with these type of players.

Could you get one outside the top 10? Sure. Maybe. If we keep our pick we get one for sure.

[chitownsports4ever]

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