Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[BlacJacMac]

The problem is Zach is even less of a PG than Ant is, so you'd have 2 guys trading off playing "the hero" while everyone else stands around.

[winforlose]

The problem is Zach is even less of a PG than Ant is, so you'd have 2 guys trading off playing "the hero" while everyone else stands around.

100% agree. It is fine to having a scoring PG (great in fact,) but they must look to create first and take advantage when they are left alone (picking your spots like Mike does.) We also need a PG who rebounds. Zach isn’t the gang rebound or find someone to box out guy. All Zach wants to be is a professional scorer.

[Klomp]

Alternative idea: Randle and something for Lonzo/Lavine?

Lavine’s shooting and scoring would be great for spacing and for Ant. Lonzo is a nice buy low and helps with the ball handling and defense if he can get healthy.

And Lavine would totally bring the vibes back

Nope. I think the only guy we can legally trade for LaVine is by trading Gobert.

[BlacJacMac]

Alternative idea: Randle and something for Lonzo/Lavine?

Lavine’s shooting and scoring would be great for spacing and for Ant. Lonzo is a nice buy low and helps with the ball handling and defense if he can get healthy.

And Lavine would totally bring the vibes back

Nope. I think the only guy we can legally trade for LaVine is by trading Gobert.

Correct. And it would have to be after the year as Rudy can't be traded before the deadline.

[Note30]

We didn’t. He is making 23 this year, he doesn’t make 30 until his last year which 28/29 and by then the cap will have exploded. Believe it or not, Jaden is on one of the best contracts in the NBA. It is true that he has a low floor, but he has an all star ceiling. The problem is we have a coach who failed him. Finch has also failed Ant. Jaden is still in his head a lot, and has not been given the chance to develop his offense in the flow of scheme. Ant is not a team player and doesn’t know how to take that final leap from being a Harden type scorer to Curry like champion. Jaden’s contract is probably our best asset outside of Ant, and other teams will develop him into a 20 ppg all NBA defense star. The issue for us is trying to figure out how to reinvent the wheel without selling the farm.


P.S. We are too good and too individually talented to play this badly this consistently.

No one said to hand him this contract. We could and should have just let him hit RFA and matched worse case or conducted a sign and trade for another player that we knew more about.

No way someone was going to offer Jaden this contract and if they were I'd be happy for them to take it, because he's clearly not worth his price tag atleast on this team.

I don't know if that's true. He definitely had potential, but his handle is so tight and he thinks too much when he gets the ball, which are huge mental and skill problems. It's possible that he's doesn't have the body or hand eye coordination to make it better as well. His BBIQ is also pretty low. It's really hard to make him better at this point. I think we also saw flashes of what he could be but he had to be setup super well.

It doesn't help that the has to really create his own shot. With Gobert and Randle hogging the paint there's no lanes. The same thing Ant complained about last night btw.

Our current bigs clog the lane way too much. He needed a Rubio esque point guard playing 5 out to be able to see things to point where he's effective. He's a tall guy and there isn't much spacing on our team especially considering we traded our best spacer and the guy who was supposed to do that is pouting on the bench.

If you want to have Gobert and another big you have to have a guy who can super effectively create his own shot on the perimeter or have a PG who can orchestrate things. We have neither.

This is a problem that predates the KAT trade.

1. Jaden McDaniels made all NBA defense last year (2nd team,) and was 23 at the time. That alone justifies real money. Add his size and the fact that he is on of the best non center shot blockers in the NBA, and that justifies money. Jaden had a season shooting quite well from the corners before regressing last year (after getting the contract.) Jaden has dropped 20 plus in multiple playoff games. He is also 24 years old and not yet in his prime. This deal was a steal. Even with cap smoothing in 3-4 years it will be the best contract in the NBA (with few if any exceptions.)

2. Consistency is the key to an NBA career. Jaden is inconsistent. Yet, his flashes of elite offensive potential demand coaching. It demands play designs to feature and get Jaden going. It demands a greater role in the offense than stand in the corner and shoot 3s. I just saw something on one of these threads that says Jaden has the best floater game on the team. Some of his slow development is on him, but some is on the team, and we need to fix that.

3. Jaden and Rudy playing together is only an issue when there is no elite scorer with them. You cannot run a lineup without Ant, Naz, or Randle if DDV is playing like this. NAW is someone who like Jaden can score in bunches but doesn’t typically create for himself. Dilly is not good enough at creating for anyone to be an offensive mainstay right now. In other words Dilly also needs that elite scorer to take pressure of him. That is why a lineup without one of the big 3 featuring Dilly went -15 in under 3 minutes and the game was lost.

Jesus dude. Are you Jon K or something? You're almost as much of a FO defender as Klomp.

First Team - Bam Adebayo, Anthony Davis, Rudy Gobert, Herb Jones, Victor Wembanyama

Second Team - Alex Caruso, Jrue Holiday, Jaden McDaniels, Jalen Suggs, Orlando Magic, Derrick White

Outside of four players on that list, (AD, Bam, Gobert,White) threeo of which actually provide an integral part of the offense, no one on that list is making as much as Jaden, except Derrick White. Dude is averaging 45/40 on 18 pts a game on a championship team as an actual contributor as arguably the the third most important player. Jaden should be doing that but he's not good enough.

His closest offensive comparison is Herb Jones. Who is only a few years older. You know how much he makes? $12M. Which is what McDaniels should be making.
OH AND YOU KNOW WHO WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO TRADE BECAUSE OF THE SALARY DIFF FOR THE SECOND APRON? KAT.

You're out of your mind if you think McDaniels should be making what JJJ, Mikal, Derrick White are making. Those guys are all significantly better than Jaden. Any one of them would actually make this team significantly better.

2. Have you watched Jaden play? Dude doesn't have a useful handle. It's too tight, all he can effectively pull off is straight line drives, unless you're Giannis that ain't working at this level. He's got one spin move, and he can't finish with his left hand at all. Always goes to his right. When a defender makes him go off a straight line he always takes a jump shot. He is able to make some behind the back moves but he can't move forward because he can't bring the ball back fast enough. He just doesn't have the balance or ball control. Even his straight line drives require strength which he doesn't have on every opponent.

Unless his player dev coach is a serious and concerned Allen Iverson or Gannon Baker and all Jaden does is work on his handle he's not gonna be able to do anything else. Jaden is being parked in the corner because that's all he can do. The few games he had were all a mix of this or mostly points off turnovers or backdoors. No idea where people gave him this best floater crap. It's low. Most of them aren't high or off the glass.

3. Then you shouldnt be tying up $60+M in two players who can't be on the floor at the same time regardless of the type of player. Ridiculous that we have such limited players tying up so much money for the "defense".

[winforlose]

No one said to hand him this contract. We could and should have just let him hit RFA and matched worse case or conducted a sign and trade for another player that we knew more about.

No way someone was going to offer Jaden this contract and if they were I'd be happy for them to take it, because he's clearly not worth his price tag atleast on this team.

I don't know if that's true. He definitely had potential, but his handle is so tight and he thinks too much when he gets the ball, which are huge mental and skill problems. It's possible that he's doesn't have the body or hand eye coordination to make it better as well. His BBIQ is also pretty low. It's really hard to make him better at this point. I think we also saw flashes of what he could be but he had to be setup super well.

It doesn't help that the has to really create his own shot. With Gobert and Randle hogging the paint there's no lanes. The same thing Ant complained about last night btw.

Our current bigs clog the lane way too much. He needed a Rubio esque point guard playing 5 out to be able to see things to point where he's effective. He's a tall guy and there isn't much spacing on our team especially considering we traded our best spacer and the guy who was supposed to do that is pouting on the bench.

If you want to have Gobert and another big you have to have a guy who can super effectively create his own shot on the perimeter or have a PG who can orchestrate things. We have neither.

This is a problem that predates the KAT trade.

1. Jaden McDaniels made all NBA defense last year (2nd team,) and was 23 at the time. That alone justifies real money. Add his size and the fact that he is on of the best non center shot blockers in the NBA, and that justifies money. Jaden had a season shooting quite well from the corners before regressing last year (after getting the contract.) Jaden has dropped 20 plus in multiple playoff games. He is also 24 years old and not yet in his prime. This deal was a steal. Even with cap smoothing in 3-4 years it will be the best contract in the NBA (with few if any exceptions.)

2. Consistency is the key to an NBA career. Jaden is inconsistent. Yet, his flashes of elite offensive potential demand coaching. It demands play designs to feature and get Jaden going. It demands a greater role in the offense than stand in the corner and shoot 3s. I just saw something on one of these threads that says Jaden has the best floater game on the team. Some of his slow development is on him, but some is on the team, and we need to fix that.

3. Jaden and Rudy playing together is only an issue when there is no elite scorer with them. You cannot run a lineup without Ant, Naz, or Randle if DDV is playing like this. NAW is someone who like Jaden can score in bunches but doesn’t typically create for himself. Dilly is not good enough at creating for anyone to be an offensive mainstay right now. In other words Dilly also needs that elite scorer to take pressure of him. That is why a lineup without one of the big 3 featuring Dilly went -15 in under 3 minutes and the game was lost.

Jesus dude. Are you Jon K or something? You're almost as much of a FO defender as Klomp.

First Team - Bam Adebayo, Anthony Davis, Rudy Gobert, Herb Jones, Victor Wembanyama

Second Team - Alex Caruso, Jrue Holiday, Jaden McDaniels, Jalen Suggs, Orlando Magic, Derrick White

Outside of four players on that list, (AD, Bam, Gobert,White) threeo of which actually provide an integral part of the offense, no one on that list is making as much as Jaden, except Derrick White. Dude is averaging 45/40 on 18 pts a game on a championship team as an actual contributor as arguably the the third most important player. Jaden should be doing that but he's not good enough.

His closest offensive comparison is Herb Jones. Who is only a few years older. You know how much he makes? $12M. Which is what McDaniels should be making.
OH AND YOU KNOW WHO WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO TRADE BECAUSE OF THE SALARY DIFF FOR THE SECOND APRON? KAT.

You're out of your mind if you think McDaniels should be making what JJJ, Mikal, Derrick White are making. Those guys are all significantly better than Jaden. Any one of them would actually make this team significantly better.

2. Have you watched Jaden play? Dude doesn't have a useful handle. It's too tight, all he can effectively pull off is straight line drives, unless you're Giannis that ain't working at this level. He's got one spin move, and he can't finish with his left hand at all. Always goes to his right. When a defender makes him go off a straight line he always takes a jump shot. He is able to make some behind the back moves but he can't move forward because he can't bring the ball back fast enough. He just doesn't have the balance or ball control. Even his straight line drives require strength which he doesn't have on every opponent.

Unless his player dev coach is a serious and concerned Allen Iverson or Gannon Baker and all Jaden does is work on his handle he's not gonna be able to do anything else. Jaden is being parked in the corner because that's all he can do. The few games he had were all a mix of this or mostly points off turnovers or backdoors. No idea where people gave him this best floater crap. It's low. Most of them aren't high or off the glass.

3. Then you shouldnt be tying up $60+M in two players who can't be on the floor at the same time regardless of the type of player. Ridiculous that we have such limited players tying up so much money for the "defense".

Before we go further I need to ask, Jaden is making 23 this year, what do you think he should be making?

[Note30]

1. Jaden McDaniels made all NBA defense last year (2nd team,) and was 23 at the time. That alone justifies real money. Add his size and the fact that he is on of the best non center shot blockers in the NBA, and that justifies money. Jaden had a season shooting quite well from the corners before regressing last year (after getting the contract.) Jaden has dropped 20 plus in multiple playoff games. He is also 24 years old and not yet in his prime. This deal was a steal. Even with cap smoothing in 3-4 years it will be the best contract in the NBA (with few if any exceptions.)

2. Consistency is the key to an NBA career. Jaden is inconsistent. Yet, his flashes of elite offensive potential demand coaching. It demands play designs to feature and get Jaden going. It demands a greater role in the offense than stand in the corner and shoot 3s. I just saw something on one of these threads that says Jaden has the best floater game on the team. Some of his slow development is on him, but some is on the team, and we need to fix that.

3. Jaden and Rudy playing together is only an issue when there is no elite scorer with them. You cannot run a lineup without Ant, Naz, or Randle if DDV is playing like this. NAW is someone who like Jaden can score in bunches but doesn’t typically create for himself. Dilly is not good enough at creating for anyone to be an offensive mainstay right now. In other words Dilly also needs that elite scorer to take pressure of him. That is why a lineup without one of the big 3 featuring Dilly went -15 in under 3 minutes and the game was lost.

Jesus dude. Are you Jon K or something? You're almost as much of a FO defender as Klomp.

First Team - Bam Adebayo, Anthony Davis, Rudy Gobert, Herb Jones, Victor Wembanyama

Second Team - Alex Caruso, Jrue Holiday, Jaden McDaniels, Jalen Suggs, Orlando Magic, Derrick White

Outside of four players on that list, (AD, Bam, Gobert,White) threeo of which actually provide an integral part of the offense, no one on that list is making as much as Jaden, except Derrick White. Dude is averaging 45/40 on 18 pts a game on a championship team as an actual contributor as arguably the the third most important player. Jaden should be doing that but he's not good enough.

His closest offensive comparison is Herb Jones. Who is only a few years older. You know how much he makes? $12M. Which is what McDaniels should be making.
OH AND YOU KNOW WHO WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO TRADE BECAUSE OF THE SALARY DIFF FOR THE SECOND APRON? KAT.

You're out of your mind if you think McDaniels should be making what JJJ, Mikal, Derrick White are making. Those guys are all significantly better than Jaden. Any one of them would actually make this team significantly better.

2. Have you watched Jaden play? Dude doesn't have a useful handle. It's too tight, all he can effectively pull off is straight line drives, unless you're Giannis that ain't working at this level. He's got one spin move, and he can't finish with his left hand at all. Always goes to his right. When a defender makes him go off a straight line he always takes a jump shot. He is able to make some behind the back moves but he can't move forward because he can't bring the ball back fast enough. He just doesn't have the balance or ball control. Even his straight line drives require strength which he doesn't have on every opponent.

Unless his player dev coach is a serious and concerned Allen Iverson or Gannon Baker and all Jaden does is work on his handle he's not gonna be able to do anything else. Jaden is being parked in the corner because that's all he can do. The few games he had were all a mix of this or mostly points off turnovers or backdoors. No idea where people gave him this best floater crap. It's low. Most of them aren't high or off the glass.

3. Then you shouldnt be tying up $60+M in two players who can't be on the floor at the same time regardless of the type of player. Ridiculous that we have such limited players tying up so much money for the "defense".

Before we go further I need to ask, Jaden is making 23 this year, what do you think he should be making?

It's literally in the reply I gave you. If you're not going to read it, I'm not going to answer.

[winforlose]

Jesus dude. Are you Jon K or something? You're almost as much of a FO defender as Klomp.

First Team - Bam Adebayo, Anthony Davis, Rudy Gobert, Herb Jones, Victor Wembanyama

Second Team - Alex Caruso, Jrue Holiday, Jaden McDaniels, Jalen Suggs, Orlando Magic, Derrick White

Outside of four players on that list, (AD, Bam, Gobert,White) threeo of which actually provide an integral part of the offense, no one on that list is making as much as Jaden, except Derrick White. Dude is averaging 45/40 on 18 pts a game on a championship team as an actual contributor as arguably the the third most important player. Jaden should be doing that but he's not good enough.

His closest offensive comparison is Herb Jones. Who is only a few years older. You know how much he makes? $12M. Which is what McDaniels should be making.
OH AND YOU KNOW WHO WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO TRADE BECAUSE OF THE SALARY DIFF FOR THE SECOND APRON? KAT.

You're out of your mind if you think McDaniels should be making what JJJ, Mikal, Derrick White are making. Those guys are all significantly better than Jaden. Any one of them would actually make this team significantly better.

2. Have you watched Jaden play? Dude doesn't have a useful handle. It's too tight, all he can effectively pull off is straight line drives, unless you're Giannis that ain't working at this level. He's got one spin move, and he can't finish with his left hand at all. Always goes to his right. When a defender makes him go off a straight line he always takes a jump shot. He is able to make some behind the back moves but he can't move forward because he can't bring the ball back fast enough. He just doesn't have the balance or ball control. Even his straight line drives require strength which he doesn't have on every opponent.

Unless his player dev coach is a serious and concerned Allen Iverson or Gannon Baker and all Jaden does is work on his handle he's not gonna be able to do anything else. Jaden is being parked in the corner because that's all he can do. The few games he had were all a mix of this or mostly points off turnovers or backdoors. No idea where people gave him this best floater crap. It's low. Most of them aren't high or off the glass.

3. Then you shouldnt be tying up $60+M in two players who can't be on the floor at the same time regardless of the type of player. Ridiculous that we have such limited players tying up so much money for the "defense".

Before we go further I need to ask, Jaden is making 23 this year, what do you think he should be making?

It's literally in the reply I gave you. If you're not going to read it, I'm not going to answer.

My bad I did read it but I missed that. So you think coming off the 22/23 season where he shot 39.8% from deep, better from the corners, played elite defense, and is close with Ant, he should get a contract starting at 12. So by that logic he made an extra 11. That begs the question what if Jaden had shot like Greyson Allen from the corners (and only from the corners,) last year. Would the 23 be justified? I want to remind you, the contract was signed in 22/23. Know I now you said he should have gone into RFA, but I also want to remind you, Ant very likely wanted Jaden to stick around, and 7 foot 1-4 elite defenders who shoot 40% from deep are not common in the NBA.

[shrink]

I have no problems with Jaden McDaniels contract. He is already elite at half the game, and he has potential on the other half.

He’s 24, and we have him locked in for five full years as the cap rises the full 10% for the foreseeable future.

I would also caution against making salary comparisons based on a single player. Each individual negotiation is between one player and one team. For example, Herb Jones at $12 mil is a crappy deal compared to NAW at $4 mil.

[Norseman79]

Connolly had a rough off-season...no doubt ...Kat trade (not that he traded him, but the return), free agency? Draft....

He has time to adjust some things

[Loaf_of_bread]

Jaden was solid in the postseason. His contract is fine.

[younggunsmn]

I was hoping the Hawks would be worse so maybe they would be a destination for Randle.

Randle for Hunter + Nance and Hunter becomes a small ball 4 and another switchable defender and shooter.
Wish he were a little better rebounder.

Looking through each team, not a lot of options for a 30+ million dollar PF to take Randle.

Maybe Atlanta. Maybe Chicago.
Something like Ball+ Jalen Smith but then you're getting back essentially cap space and a backup big for KAT.

Not a whole lot of good options to salvage that debacle.

[younggunsmn]

I have no problems with Jaden McDaniels contract. He is already elite at half the game, and he has potential on the other half.

He’s 24, and we have him locked in for five full years as the cap rises the full 10% for the foreseeable future.

I would also caution against making salary comparisons based on a single player. Each individual negotiation is between one player and one team. For example, Herb Jones at $12 mil is a crappy deal compared to NAW at $4 mil.

Jaden's contract is a little underwater at the moment but he is young and has time to improve.
We need more consistently from him on the offensive end but that gets kind of hard with And and Randle taking the air out of the ball for the entire game and relegating the rest of the team to spot up shooters.

[cmoss84]

My pipe dream is Scottie Barnes. But would have to get rid of the seatbelt or others.

[younggunsmn]

DeAaron Fox about to hit the trade market and we have no assets left.
And as a 2nd apron team can't even salary match.
Gobert untradeable until next offseason.

Gonna be fun when Spurs get him using those draft assets we gave them for Rob Dillingham.

[m2002brian]

DeAaron Fox about to hit the trade market and we have no assets left.
And as a 2nd apron team can't even salary match.
Gobert untradeable until next offseason.

Gonna be fun when Spurs get him using those draft assets we gave them for Rob Dillingham.

Sure we can.

Randle and Rob to Sac - Fox to MN
DDV to Washington - 2 or 3 SRP to MN

Below 2nd apron after trade.

Obviously Sac says no, but maybe Randle can be rerouted somewhere else. Miami?

Let’s make this wild:

https://imgur.com/a/urNpzmD

[Note30]

Before we go further I need to ask, Jaden is making 23 this year, what do you think he should be making?

It's literally in the reply I gave you. If you're not going to read it, I'm not going to answer.

My bad I did read it but I missed that. So you think coming off the 22/23 season where he shot 39.8% from deep, better from the corners, played elite defense, and is close with Ant, he should get a contract starting at 12. So by that logic he made an extra 11. That begs the question what if Jaden had shot like Greyson Allen from the corners (and only from the corners,) last year. Would the 23 be justified? I want to remind you, the contract was signed in 22/23. Know I now you said he should have gone into RFA, but I also want to remind you, Ant very likely wanted Jaden to stick around, and 7 foot 1-4 elite defenders who shoot 40% from deep are not common in the NBA.

If he could create his own shot like Vassell (even at one level) and play elite defense he'd be worth it. Paying 23 million for a spot shooter who can defend is horrible money management. So is paying 37 million for a declining center with a super limited offensive bag. I'm not saying pay for only offense but paying for only defense is stupid too.

[Note30]

I have no problems with Jaden McDaniels contract. He is already elite at half the game, and he has potential on the other half.

He’s 24, and we have him locked in for five full years as the cap rises the full 10% for the foreseeable future.

I would also caution against making salary comparisons based on a single player. Each individual negotiation is between one player and one team. For example, Herb Jones at $12 mil is a crappy deal compared to NAW at $4 mil.

Jaden's contract is a little underwater at the moment but he is young and has time to improve.
We need more consistently from him on the offensive end but that gets kind of hard with And and Randle taking the air out of the ball for the entire game and relegating the rest of the team to spot up shooters.

He's young we definitely don't have time

[Note30]

Jaden was solid in the postseason. His contract is fine.

12 pts a game and 4 rebs for 148 million is not fine. But you're also the same person who thinks trading an MVP candidate level player for scrubs is okay.

[Loaf_of_bread]

Jaden was solid in the postseason. His contract is fine.

12 pts a game and 4 rebs for 148 million is not fine. But you're also the same person who thinks trading an MVP candidate level player for scrubs is okay.

Chill out bro