NBA Trade Thread #11

[2weekswithpay]

Maybe Jimmy takes less with more time on the contract, not sure exactly what his position is. 3yrs/$140 might do it, more guaranteed money. Same with Carter, if he can get a 2-3 year offer from someone. And the stars thing is the point. Most of these high usage starters are missing 20% of their games, it's not uncommon now. This season NBA stars are projected to miss 35% more games than last year. I'd be willing to move Pat if we get Jimmy.

Out of the guys you mention that are worth it, Dame last three years 73, 58, 29. Giannis 73, 63, 67. Kat 62, 29, 74. Only Jokic (79, 69, 74) averaged more than 70 games. But the cost to even GET those guys would be FAR more than what we're talking about Butler, plus you're spending the money. Not arguing Butler is Giannis or Jokic, but he's not missing more games than most starters. There's a reason why they're giving awards for playing 70 games, that's never been an issue before. With Butler, we're mostly talking about cap and players we're thinking about trading anyway. Of those 4, only Giannis is making even close to the defensive impact.

Don't think Jimmy has to be the BEST $50 mill player in the league to be a good deal for us, top 5-10 is fine.

Butler from the looks of it wants to maximize his earnings. He probably would take a bit less annually for an extra year but there aren't many that would give him that.

Curry, Lebron, PG, and Durant are all 34/35 or older, and each one is either underperforming or has dealt with injuries. The only guys making close to 50M that are playing at an All-NBA level are the four I mention, Kat, Jokic, Giannis, and Dame. I'm saying these older guys aren't living up to their 50M contracts this season.

I get all that. But can you win a championship with Lebron, Curry or Durant performing at their present level? With them as the 1A, as long as they have support around them? I think so. Can't look at the Warriors or Lakers and say those teams are built to win. Saying they're not performing up to their contracts, based on what? Because they're the 9th and 10th best player in the league instead of number 2? 27 players will make over $40 mill this season, AD will make $60 mill. $50 mill is not going to automatically get you a top 5 player anymore.

It's not like if we don't spend $50 mill on Butler, we get Giannis or Jokic. We get whatever the Bulls decide to spend $50 mill on, probably Pat Will and another $25 mill mid player.

Lebron is putting up 23, 9 and 8, while shooting 36% from three, pretty high for him. Curry's putting up 22, 6 and 5 , 41% 3pt in only 30 minutes on a weak team. Durant: 26, 7 and 4, 42% from three. Hard to say they're not earning their money. Curry's getting double teamed all game, who's the second scorer on the Warriors now, Kuminga? If those guys were FA this summer, (like Lebron is), won't they all get at least $50 mill offers from multiple teams? And I mean, Lebron is 40, not 34. Kd and Steph are older too. Most of the NBA not on rookie contracts are making more than we'd say they're worth. On this team alone, Ball, Vuc, Lavine, Pat, Carter, Duarte, we're expecting to be mad at Giddey's contract and he hasn't even gotten it yet, lmao! Because it won't be lower than Pat's.

Are we locked in as a play in team with Butler, or could we be much more?

Lebron is a no right now. Curry and Durant, maybe if they were on better-constructed teams. I think you have to be a top-15 player in the NBA to be the best player on a title team. In som e circumstances, you could lower that to top 20-25, but Lebron just hasn't been that good this year. He was much better last season.

Well if you're paying someone 50M which would be a top 15 salary, I'd hope for All-NBA level play and availability. Lebron isn't playing at that level this season. Lebron is getting to the line less than ever before. Only 4.4 free throw attempts per game. His 2-point percentage is the lowest it's been in a decade. Durant was very good but he got hurt. He's already missed 10 games. Curry has been shooting under 40% from the field for the last month and has missed some games. Yeah, their teams are flawed but they've also declined as players. AD is better than Lebron this season and was better than him last season. AD is only making 43M this season, he'll be at 54M next season when his extension kicks in.

KD and Curry yes should get offers, especially for a team like Orlando that needs the scoring/shooting but Lebron I'm not sure. Realistically how many teams does Lebron help right now? The bad teams need to be better in 3-4 years not now. It doesn't make sense for them to pay a 40 year old Lebron. The very good teams, OKC, Celtics, Knicks, Cavs, Mavs, etc, don't need Lebron at the expense of depth.

With Butler, I think the Bulls can win 40-44 games. Maybe a second-round appearance if everything goes right. No reason to believe we'd be any better than the current Miami Heat.

[sco]

Coby White + Patrick Williams for John Collins

Collins can opt out after this year but the Bulls would have his bird rights. Utah probably can't get much for him. Who says no?

Ayo
Lavine
Giddey
Collins
Vucevic

No. All day long.

Lots of much better trades out there for Coby alone.

OK, Coby and Patrick for Zion. Remember, Zion's huge contract has riders in it for his weight and injury status. If he let's himself go, his deal can be released.

Ayo / Ball
Lavine
Giddey / Matas
Zion
Vucevic / Smith

I am admittedly hot and cold on Zion. I will admit to loving the name/post draft hype, but the reality is his game may not translate well to the NBA. He is a powerful dunker and can handle the ball, but he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he doesn't block shots, and while he gets to the line a lot...he's only a 70% ft shooter. On a per 36 basis, you aren't too far off Horton-Tucker, except THT can shoot 3's. Then you add in that he misses soooooo many games.

[coldfish]

No. All day long.

Lots of much better trades out there for Coby alone.

OK, Coby and Patrick for Zion. Remember, Zion's huge contract has riders in it for his weight and injury status. If he let's himself go, his deal can be released.

Ayo / Ball
Lavine
Giddey / Matas
Zion
Vucevic / Smith

I am admittedly hot and cold on Zion. I will admit to loving the name/post draft hype, but the reality is his game may not translate well to the NBA. He is a powerful dunker and can handle the ball, but he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he doesn't block shots, and while he gets to the line a lot...he's only a 70% ft shooter. On a per 36 basis, you aren't too far off Horton-Tucker, except THT can shoot 3's. Then you add in that he misses soooooo many games.

Yeah, I was a huge Zion fan coming into the league but when you look at his career its really on a fast trajectory down. He was able to make up for his lack of 3p shooting with his high FG% but this year its gone in the tank. He looks like a net negative right now and I'm not sure that changes.

IMO, the team basically needs to upgrade its PF if it wants to compete this year. Obviously not title or anything but maybe a competitive first round series. Not the best long term team planning but it is what it is.

Not sure who else is out there that fits the bill. Ironically, Patrick Williams should. He just doesn't.

[sco]

OK, Coby and Patrick for Zion. Remember, Zion's huge contract has riders in it for his weight and injury status. If he let's himself go, his deal can be released.

Ayo / Ball
Lavine
Giddey / Matas
Zion
Vucevic / Smith

I am admittedly hot and cold on Zion. I will admit to loving the name/post draft hype, but the reality is his game may not translate well to the NBA. He is a powerful dunker and can handle the ball, but he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he doesn't block shots, and while he gets to the line a lot...he's only a 70% ft shooter. On a per 36 basis, you aren't too far off Horton-Tucker, except THT can shoot 3's. Then you add in that he misses soooooo many games.

Yeah, I was a huge Zion fan coming into the league but when you look at his career its really on a fast trajectory down. He was able to make up for his lack of 3p shooting with his high FG% but this year its gone in the tank. He looks like a net negative right now and I'm not sure that changes.

IMO, the team basically needs to upgrade its PF if it wants to compete this year. Obviously not title or anything but maybe a competitive first round series. Not the best long term team planning but it is what it is.

Not sure who else is out there that fits the bill. Ironically, Patrick Williams should. He just doesn't.

I'm with you, but to be fair to "NPC Pat", he's working his way back into shape after going long stretches with activity restrictions due to his foot. He may actually get there by Feb. That said, MPJ next to Pat is interesting.

[Dan Z]

OK, Coby and Patrick for Zion. Remember, Zion's huge contract has riders in it for his weight and injury status. If he let's himself go, his deal can be released.

Ayo / Ball
Lavine
Giddey / Matas
Zion
Vucevic / Smith

I am admittedly hot and cold on Zion. I will admit to loving the name/post draft hype, but the reality is his game may not translate well to the NBA. He is a powerful dunker and can handle the ball, but he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he doesn't block shots, and while he gets to the line a lot...he's only a 70% ft shooter. On a per 36 basis, you aren't too far off Horton-Tucker, except THT can shoot 3's. Then you add in that he misses soooooo many games.

Yeah, I was a huge Zion fan coming into the league but when you look at his career its really on a fast trajectory down. He was able to make up for his lack of 3p shooting with his high FG% but this year its gone in the tank. He looks like a net negative right now and I'm not sure that changes.

IMO, the team basically needs to upgrade its PF if it wants to compete this year. Obviously not title or anything but maybe a competitive first round series. Not the best long term team planning but it is what it is.

Not sure who else is out there that fits the bill. Ironically, Patrick Williams should. He just doesn't.

What about Lauri Markkanen? Haha. Actually I don't think he can be traded this year...? Plus, the Jazz will want too much for him.

I wonder if there's an underrated player AK can target in a trade (I know you recently suggested John Collins).

[coldfish]

I am admittedly hot and cold on Zion. I will admit to loving the name/post draft hype, but the reality is his game may not translate well to the NBA. He is a powerful dunker and can handle the ball, but he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he doesn't block shots, and while he gets to the line a lot...he's only a 70% ft shooter. On a per 36 basis, you aren't too far off Horton-Tucker, except THT can shoot 3's. Then you add in that he misses soooooo many games.

Yeah, I was a huge Zion fan coming into the league but when you look at his career its really on a fast trajectory down. He was able to make up for his lack of 3p shooting with his high FG% but this year its gone in the tank. He looks like a net negative right now and I'm not sure that changes.

IMO, the team basically needs to upgrade its PF if it wants to compete this year. Obviously not title or anything but maybe a competitive first round series. Not the best long term team planning but it is what it is.

Not sure who else is out there that fits the bill. Ironically, Patrick Williams should. He just doesn't.

What about Lauri Markkanen? Haha. Actually I don't think he can be traded this year...? Plus, the Jazz will want too much for him.

I wonder if there's an underrated player AK can target in a trade (I know you recently suggested John Collins).

Markkanen as you said would cost too much. There is only one ball too. Ideally you want a good defensive 4 who can hit 3's. Basically Matas +15lb +5%3p.

Collins has really upped his 3p shot.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collijo01.html
He isn't a defensive 4 but he does play off ball well.

I'll change up my trade from before:

Collins for Williams plus Jevon Carter. Works in the trade machine. Chicago loses Patrick for a tryout with Collins. Utah gets a young player on a cheap long term deal instead of a guy about to walk.

Ayo / Ball
Lavine / Coby
Giddey
Collins / Matas
Vucevic / Smith

Should be enough to make the playoffs.

[sco]

Saw another rumor LAL interested in Vuc.

I'd still love a Vandy deal, but would take expirings plus a '29 1st if that's still available.

[Infinity2152]

Butler from the looks of it wants to maximize his earnings. He probably would take a bit less annually for an extra year but there aren't many that would give him that.

Curry, Lebron, PG, and Durant are all 34/35 or older, and each one is either underperforming or has dealt with injuries. The only guys making close to 50M that are playing at an All-NBA level are the four I mention, Kat, Jokic, Giannis, and Dame. I'm saying these older guys aren't living up to their 50M contracts this season.

I get all that. But can you win a championship with Lebron, Curry or Durant performing at their present level? With them as the 1A, as long as they have support around them? I think so. Can't look at the Warriors or Lakers and say those teams are built to win. Saying they're not performing up to their contracts, based on what? Because they're the 9th and 10th best player in the league instead of number 2? 27 players will make over $40 mill this season, AD will make $60 mill. $50 mill is not going to automatically get you a top 5 player anymore.

It's not like if we don't spend $50 mill on Butler, we get Giannis or Jokic. We get whatever the Bulls decide to spend $50 mill on, probably Pat Will and another $25 mill mid player.

Lebron is putting up 23, 9 and 8, while shooting 36% from three, pretty high for him. Curry's putting up 22, 6 and 5 , 41% 3pt in only 30 minutes on a weak team. Durant: 26, 7 and 4, 42% from three. Hard to say they're not earning their money. Curry's getting double teamed all game, who's the second scorer on the Warriors now, Kuminga? If those guys were FA this summer, (like Lebron is), won't they all get at least $50 mill offers from multiple teams? And I mean, Lebron is 40, not 34. Kd and Steph are older too. Most of the NBA not on rookie contracts are making more than we'd say they're worth. On this team alone, Ball, Vuc, Lavine, Pat, Carter, Duarte, we're expecting to be mad at Giddey's contract and he hasn't even gotten it yet, lmao! Because it won't be lower than Pat's.

Are we locked in as a play in team with Butler, or could we be much more?

Lebron is a no right now. Curry and Durant, maybe if they were on better-constructed teams. I think you have to be a top-15 player in the NBA to be the best player on a title team. In som e circumstances, you could lower that to top 20-25, but Lebron just hasn't been that good this year. He was much better last season.

Well if you're paying someone 50M which would be a top 15 salary, I'd hope for All-NBA level play and availability. Lebron isn't playing at that level this season. Lebron is getting to the line less than ever before. Only 4.4 free throw attempts per game. His 2-point percentage is the lowest it's been in a decade. Durant was very good but he got hurt. He's already missed 10 games. Curry has been shooting under 40% from the field for the last month and has missed some games. Yeah, their teams are flawed but they've also declined as players. AD is better than Lebron this season and was better than him last season. AD is only making 43M this season, he'll be at 54M next season when his extension kicks in.

KD and Curry yes should get offers, especially for a team like Orlando that needs the scoring/shooting but Lebron I'm not sure. Realistically how many teams does Lebron help right now? The bad teams need to be better in 3-4 years not now. It doesn't make sense for them to pay a 40 year old Lebron. The very good teams, OKC, Celtics, Knicks, Cavs, Mavs, etc, don't need Lebron at the expense of depth.

With Butler, I think the Bulls can win 40-44 games. Maybe a second-round appearance if everything goes right. No reason to believe we'd be any better than the current Miami Heat.

40 games? The Bulls have been winning that many games WITHOUT Butler. So you really think adding Giddey, defensive center and Jimmy Butler, plus Matas, plus our rookie this summer, while losing Vuc, Derozan, and Caruso makes us only slightly better? Definitely think Lebron is still playing like top 15, there aren't 15 guys putting up 23, 9, and 8. If you swap Lebron with Tatum, the best player on the Celtics, they're still the favorite, maybe even more so. Lebron's playmaking and vision are not going to leave him. Davis makes $58.5 mill in two years and $62.7 mill the year after that, at age 34. AAV is $59.93 mill, or $60 mill over next 3 years. He's putting up 28, 11, and 3 vs Lebron's 23, 9, and 8, that's pretty much a wash. Last year he was 25, 13 and 3 vs Lebron's 26, 7 and 8, I'm giving that to Bron. Seeing how Lebron also had to function as the engine of the team, his 8 assists/gm help Davis reach his point total, vs Davis 3 assists. He's SUPPOSED to be the top scorer, Lebron is more focused on playmaking.

Again, it's HARD to acquire star players, and damn near all of them, by your own admission, are overpaid. So you either overpay to get a star, or you don't have stars. Tatum's AAV over his contract is $62 mill. Jaylen Brown AAV $57 mill. If you need to be top 15 to get 50 mill, what do they need to be to be worth $57mill and $62 mill, top 3? Should the Celtics not have them because they're not worth their contract? Are they better as a team without Brown or Tatum on their cap? It's the norm now that 2A stars get max or near max. I view Butler in that tiny gap between 2A and 1A, 2A player with 1A impact when you factor in defense.

Only reason Bulls fans are so concerned with cap is because ownership is notoriously unwilling to pay the tax. We act like a broke, small market team and it hurts us. Reason Ball's contract hurt us so much is because the Bulls would not go into the tax to replace him, even though they had already made a ton of moves to be in win-now mode. Very hard to penny pinch in the NBA and build a winning team, unless you have one max player that outplays their max contract (Luka, SGA, Giannis, Jokic, maybe Embid).

[Chi town]

Coby White + Patrick Williams for John Collins

Collins can opt out after this year but the Bulls would have his bird rights. Utah probably can't get much for him. Who says no?

Ayo
Lavine
Giddey
Collins
Vucevic

No. All day long.

Lots of much better trades out there for Coby alone.

OK, Coby and Patrick for Zion. Remember, Zion's huge contract has riders in it for his weight and injury status. If he let's himself go, his deal can be released.

Ayo / Ball
Lavine
Giddey / Matas
Zion
Vucevic / Smith

Zion is a loser who doesn’t even want to play.

No way you trade for him because he won’t even play.

[Infinity2152]

I still would like to see how Patrick plays at wing next to a good PF for an extended period. Everything about him, from size to playstyle, screams good 3 and D SF. Out of all the Bulls, person I'd want to trade most is Coby. Could probably get a good return, we're overloaded at guard and only have two guys basically that should play big minutes at SF/PF (Matas and Pat). Coby's probably going to be a career great sixth man, like Crawford and Lou Williams, but he's going to keep getting starter minutes here. Vuc is next, at his highest value, but wouldn't rush. Craig after that.

[2weekswithpay]

I get all that. But can you win a championship with Lebron, Curry or Durant performing at their present level? With them as the 1A, as long as they have support around them? I think so. Can't look at the Warriors or Lakers and say those teams are built to win. Saying they're not performing up to their contracts, based on what? Because they're the 9th and 10th best player in the league instead of number 2? 27 players will make over $40 mill this season, AD will make $60 mill. $50 mill is not going to automatically get you a top 5 player anymore.

It's not like if we don't spend $50 mill on Butler, we get Giannis or Jokic. We get whatever the Bulls decide to spend $50 mill on, probably Pat Will and another $25 mill mid player.

Lebron is putting up 23, 9 and 8, while shooting 36% from three, pretty high for him. Curry's putting up 22, 6 and 5 , 41% 3pt in only 30 minutes on a weak team. Durant: 26, 7 and 4, 42% from three. Hard to say they're not earning their money. Curry's getting double teamed all game, who's the second scorer on the Warriors now, Kuminga? If those guys were FA this summer, (like Lebron is), won't they all get at least $50 mill offers from multiple teams? And I mean, Lebron is 40, not 34. Kd and Steph are older too. Most of the NBA not on rookie contracts are making more than we'd say they're worth. On this team alone, Ball, Vuc, Lavine, Pat, Carter, Duarte, we're expecting to be mad at Giddey's contract and he hasn't even gotten it yet, lmao! Because it won't be lower than Pat's.

Are we locked in as a play in team with Butler, or could we be much more?

Lebron is a no right now. Curry and Durant, maybe if they were on better-constructed teams. I think you have to be a top-15 player in the NBA to be the best player on a title team. In some circumstances, you could lower that to top 20-25, but Lebron just hasn't been that good this year. He was much better last season.

Well if you're paying someone 50M which would be a top 15 salary, I'd hope for All-NBA level play and availability. Lebron isn't playing at that level this season. Lebron is getting to the line less than ever before. Only 4.4 free throw attempts per game. His 2-point percentage is the lowest it's been in a decade. Durant was very good but he got hurt. He's already missed 10 games. Curry has been shooting under 40% from the field for the last month and has missed some games. Yeah, their teams are flawed but they've also declined as players. AD is better than Lebron this season and was better than him last season. AD is only making 43M this season, he'll be at 54M next season when his extension kicks in.

KD and Curry yes should get offers, especially for a team like Orlando that needs the scoring/shooting but Lebron I'm not sure. Realistically how many teams does Lebron help right now? The bad teams need to be better in 3-4 years not now. It doesn't make sense for them to pay a 40 year old Lebron. The very good teams, OKC, Celtics, Knicks, Cavs, Mavs, etc, don't need Lebron at the expense of depth.

With Butler, I think the Bulls can win 40-44 games. Maybe a second-round appearance if everything goes right. No reason to believe we'd be any better than the current Miami Heat.

The Bulls have been winning that many games WITHOUT Butler. So you really think adding a defensive center and Jimmy Butler, plus Matas, plus our rookie this summer. definitely think Lebron is still playing like top 15, there aren't 15 guys putting up 23, 9, and 8. If you swap Lebron with Tatum, the best player on the Celtics, they're still the favorite, maybe even more so. Lebron's playmaking and vision are not going to leave him. Davis makes $58.5 mill in two years and $62.7 mill the year after that, at age 34. AAV is $59.93 mill, or $60 mill over next 3 years.

Again, it's HARD to acquire star players, and damn near all of them, by your own admission, are overpaid. So you either overpay to get a star, or you don't have stars. Tatum's AAV over his contract is $62 mill. Jaylen Brown AAV $57 mill. If you need to be top 15 to get 50 mill, what do they need to be to be worth $57mill and $62 mill. Should the Celtics not have them because they're not worth their contract? Are they better as a team without Brown or Tatum on their cap?

The Bulls are 2 games under .500 with the 19th-best net rating in the league. They've outperformed expectations but are still mediocre. A -2.5 net rating which they currently have projects around 37 wins. The Heat had a more talented roster than the Bulls in the last 2-3 season and still only won around 44-45 games. Why would you expect to outperform the current Heat with an older Butler, a less talented roster, and a worse coach? Me saying that with Butler the Bulls perform similarly to the Heat was being very fair.

What defensive center, who exactly do you have in mind because teams aren't going to hand you a solid starting center. Acquiring someone like Gafford took one first round pick. Rookies are bad NBA players expecting a rookie to play a significant role in helping you win games is unlikely. Coaches prefer not to play rookies for a reason. You normally lose the minutes when they're on the court. You're making a big assumption thinking Matas and whoever we draft will contribute to winning. Bulls fans were very optimistic about Pat at one point too. You can't make any assumptions with player development.

I don't know what to tell you but Tatum is flat out better than Lebron right now. Replacing Tatum with Lebron would be a noticeable downgrade.

Tatum has made the All-NBA first team 3 straight seasons. His next contract isn't an overpay. Brown is overpaid but certainly worth it to keep the team together. The Celtics did make the conference finals in 6 of the last 8 seasons so it's certainly a justifiable decision.

I don't have an issue with paying guys. I'm pointing out that paying players on the wrong side of 30 like Butler 50M has massive drawbacks. That's why I mention older vets like Lebron, KD, and Curry struggling and that's why the Heat don't want to give him a max extension.

[Infinity2152]

Not going to keep the long repost going. The Heat have been more talented BECAUSE of Butler. If you swap Lavine for Derozan for instance, the Heat don't win more games and the Bulls do the last 2-3 years. Bam and Herro would probably be considered roughly equal to Zach (far better than Herro) and Vuc (Far worse than Bam defensively, better shooter/rebounder). I'd take Coby, Pat Will, Caruso, Ball, Drummond, the rest of our team, over the rest of their castoffs. The Bulls were winning more than the Heat when Lonzo was healthy. Add in the fact that Zach has been injured a good deal during that time. If we acknowledge that Butler contributes more to winning than say Lavine, around equivalent salary and level player, then factor in the fact that the Heat only won more games than the Bulls after the Bulls developed a $20 million hole in their roster even with Butler, then it would seem the Heat team WITHOUT Butler was not better than the Bulls team without an equivalent player. Bulls had more/longer injuries to significant players. Pat Will has missed a TON of time too. Total starter games lost to injuries for Bulls over last three years is staggering. Swap Giddey, the guy basically replacing Derozan's minutes, with Butler or just take both guys off the court. Lonzo and Pat both play. We'd kick the Heat's ass. Take out Zach, our best player, and Butler. We still have a very good chance of winning.

Of course it would be better to go get some 25 yr old superstar with Jimmy's level of impact for only $50 mill. Cost is 5 first round picks, 5 pick swaps and three good players. Of course, if they're on their second contract they're getting rookie max. Every team's situation is different. Some players are really different. That Heat team did not have enough talent to make a Finals, on paper. I don't think Jimmy leads us to the championship, but I think if we have Jimmy, Zach, Giddey, Matas, Ayo, I mean we have a lot of players who could be damn good, but they need a leader. I think if Jimmy buys in, we'd have a damn good looking team as long as we have decent health. The whole point of us having all these young guys is we expect them to be better each year, so can't really compare to Coby or Pat two years ago, next year they'll be three years better. Heat might have only won 44 games, but you can bet Jokic, Luka, Tatum, Durant, everybody knows when they're matching up against Jimmy, and it's going to be a long night.

And of course he's not going to be the Jimmy of old. But dynamics have changed. Siakam's are getting contracts AAV $50 mill. 2A's will be getting $50 mill AAV or close to it this summer. 1A contracts will look like Tatum's or more, 5 years 314 million. And that was an extension. Who would you target with $50 mill cap space, and what's the additional cost of acquiring them if not a FA?

[sco]

I'm not sure I get the whole $50M contract debate, but I will note that guys like Jimmy, Tatum and Brown are so valuable in the playoffs because they are good 2-way players, and it's really only in the playoffs that defense starts to matter a lot, IMO.

I look at our roster and if somehow we could take the assets/cap space from Zach and Vuc deals and turn them into a true #1 option, we COULD have enough pieces in Giddey, Ball, Coby, Ayo, Matas, Pat, Smith to have a legit playoff team, and IF we luck into Matas becoming a legit #2 option, perhaps a contending team. Honestly, I'd like to see (this season) what happens if/when Smith/Ball/Matas give bigger roles.

[Infinity2152]

Imagine if we had an ownership that we felt would spend to win. We keep trying to imagine scenarios where we stay under the cap and still have a legit contender. When you're starting from that premise, you're so limited. The only legit contender not in the tax is OKC, and that's because a lot of guys are still on rookie contracts. Every other major market pays the tax. A willingness to spend an extra $10 mill or so can really change your trade and FA dynamics. The Butler thing I was throwing out there, he's the best trade target available and will be the highest rated available free agent this summer, when we hope to have money.

We talk about getting that number 1 option, but who can we REALISTICALLY get better than Jimmy? Outside of draft luck? I'd take Jimmy over Ingram or MPJ or Zion for roughly the same price over the next three years, especially if I don't have to send assets. Not just overall, but especially for this particular team. I don't think Banchero or Wemby or Haliburton or Edwards will be on the block any time soon.

[HomoSapien]

OK, Coby and Patrick for Zion. Remember, Zion's huge contract has riders in it for his weight and injury status. If he let's himself go, his deal can be released.

Ayo / Ball
Lavine
Giddey / Matas
Zion
Vucevic / Smith

I am admittedly hot and cold on Zion. I will admit to loving the name/post draft hype, but the reality is his game may not translate well to the NBA. He is a powerful dunker and can handle the ball, but he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he doesn't block shots, and while he gets to the line a lot...he's only a 70% ft shooter. On a per 36 basis, you aren't too far off Horton-Tucker, except THT can shoot 3's. Then you add in that he misses soooooo many games.

Yeah, I was a huge Zion fan coming into the league but when you look at his career its really on a fast trajectory down. He was able to make up for his lack of 3p shooting with his high FG% but this year its gone in the tank. He looks like a net negative right now and I'm not sure that changes.

IMO, the team basically needs to upgrade its PF if it wants to compete this year. Obviously not title or anything but maybe a competitive first round series. Not the best long term team planning but it is what it is.

Not sure who else is out there that fits the bill. Ironically, Patrick Williams should. He just doesn't.

I actually think your Collins idea is pretty good, though I feel like Coby + Williams may be an overpay if it's just for Collins.

Pat at the 4 isn't doing much for us. Yes, he's providing solid defense and spacing but he doesn't provide rebounding, rim protection, a lob threat, etc. Given these short-comings, Pat should be primarily a three although now he may be too heavy to do that full-time. I have to imagine that this Bulls team is more firmly in the playoff hunt with Collins over Pat.

[HomoSapien]

It seems like there's a lot more people open to bringing back Butler than I was expecting. My initial thought is that he's too old for it to make sense for us, but I love Butler so much that I could be talked into rolling the dice for him.

[sco]

I am admittedly hot and cold on Zion. I will admit to loving the name/post draft hype, but the reality is his game may not translate well to the NBA. He is a powerful dunker and can handle the ball, but he doesn't have a 3pt shot, he doesn't block shots, and while he gets to the line a lot...he's only a 70% ft shooter. On a per 36 basis, you aren't too far off Horton-Tucker, except THT can shoot 3's. Then you add in that he misses soooooo many games.

Yeah, I was a huge Zion fan coming into the league but when you look at his career its really on a fast trajectory down. He was able to make up for his lack of 3p shooting with his high FG% but this year its gone in the tank. He looks like a net negative right now and I'm not sure that changes.

IMO, the team basically needs to upgrade its PF if it wants to compete this year. Obviously not title or anything but maybe a competitive first round series. Not the best long term team planning but it is what it is.

Not sure who else is out there that fits the bill. Ironically, Patrick Williams should. He just doesn't.

I actually think your Collins idea is pretty good, though I feel like Coby + Williams may be an overpay if it's just for Collins.

Pat at the 4 isn't doing much for us. Yes, he's providing solid defense and spacing but he doesn't provide rebounding, rim protection, a lob threat, etc. Given these short-comings, Pat should be primarily a three although now he may be too heavy to do that full-time. I have to imagine that this Bulls team is more firmly in the playoff hunt with Collins over Pat.

I think Pat's weight is a temporary situation tied to his inability to do much aerobicly since he injured his foot last season. Pat previously talked about playing at a lighter weight. That all said, I like the idea of a switchable Matas/Pat pairing next season. I like Collins (more than MPJ) though. That said, on paper IMO, Utah should be better. Maybe it's playing George at PG, but 2-5 seems pretty good.

[sco]

Playing with the Den for Zach idea:

Bulls out:Zach, THT in: THJ, Thompson, Saric, DET 1st (lightly protected)
Nuggets out:MPJ, Saric in:Zach, THT
Pistons out: THJ, Thompson, DET 1st (lightly protected) in:MPJ

At least the $ work. MPJ would seem to be a good fit with DET. I don't love Thompson, but doubt we could get Holland instead.

[HomoSapien]

Not going to keep the long repost going. The Heat have been more talented BECAUSE of Butler.

No question that Butler is a floor raiser, but you also have to give Heat culture a lot of credit. They're regularly developing guys in a meaningful way. The same can't be said for us. Pat hasn't improved since he came in the league. Dalen has been slow to improve. Coby improved last season tremendously, but otherwise has been more inconsistent than consistent. Lauri and Wendell went in the wrong direction with us as well.

We might have more talent pound for pound on the roster, but I don't think it's a given that we out-perform Miami with the addition of Butler.

[sco]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-spurs-positioning-themselves-kings-184110965.html