Miami - Detroit

[Godaddycurse]

So IMO the TOR-SAC deal is more indicative of how to value deals whose motivation is solely to save money under the current CBA. In that deal, SAC saved a total of about $7M, and for that it gave up a prospect of weak/neutral value (Davion Mitchell) plus 3 SRPs

sacramento gave up POR 2025 2nd and pick #45 IIRC

I think the poster is referring to they then traded him to the Spurs with a second round pick.

thats for a total of about 13M after getting rid of mcdaniels. Toronto the trade netted them about 7M at the time

[chrbal]

sacramento gave up POR 2025 2nd and pick #45 IIRC

I think the poster is referring to they then traded him to the Spurs with a second round pick.

thats for a total of about 13M after getting rid of mcdaniels. Toronto the trade netted them about 7M at the time

Ok. I was just trying to guess why you referred to it as three second round picks.

And even with Davion having a very solid Killian Hayes type season, I still kind of wish Detroit was the team that traded for him. Detroit, having the cap space, could’ve got three seconds out of the kings for him and the PF (name escapes me) who eventually voided his contract

[Mr Peanut]

And Dallas traded THJ/3 3nds for Grimes. a player Detroit had just paid a good 2nd for and whom Detroit fans were asking multiple 2nds for prior to him getting traded. So Dallas absolutely didn't pay significantly higher than 2 2nds.

It's kind of a side point but Detroit didn't pay any seconds to get Grimes. He was the return (along with two seconds) in the trade where we sent Bojan Bogdanovic and Alec Burks to New York. I think a lot of us were underwhelmed with the return at the time but then both Bojan and Burks played terribly for NY and Bojan has missed all of this season to injury so far so doesn't feel like they were a huge loss after all.

I for one was a fan of Grimes and disappointed we traded him away without seeing him play a full healthy season, but there were also rumors that he asked for a trade. THJ is a spacing vet that has been helpful next to Cade and the 2025 Toronto second rounder in particular is a reasonable asset. I think it could be one of those rare trades where both teams made out better off.

[oldncreaky]

I literally said the opposite though. You said Detroit should get paid based on what Miami saved. I say they should not. So I'm confused now.

And I never remotely said Detroit had zero opportunity cost. There is always opportunity cost. That's baked into every deal.

You quote part of my post, cutting out the part where I said DET should get roughly half the value created -- not all, half. Now you're moving the goal posts, as well as miss-stating my original argument in this post, and doing yet another partial quote which muddies the water even more.

You have a bad part of quoting a single sentence or phrase from a post, removing the context, and then 3 replies later arguing about the ignored part. If you skim read, fine, I know you're busy and read/post a lot. But so do I, and I'm not going to waste more time on this.

The part that neither of you is considering is the other teams in this league. Robinson isn't valueless, which means we're not going to pay to get rid of him (not even a couple of seconds). If we wanted to move him, it would be pretty easy and likely for smaller, more moveable contracts plus an asset (even a couple of seconds). You cannot tell me that a contender wouldn't have interest.

The other part of this is his value to Miami. He is a gravity player. His constant motion, incredible shot, and surprisingly complete offensive game make him crucial to what we do offensively. That makes it less likely we'd want to move him, especially as nothing but a salary dump.

Haven't given much thought to Robinson's value -- for a good reason. Yes, in the discussion, it is assumed that Miami needs to dump salary at the TDL and Miami hasn't found a better way to do it.

If your primary reason to move him is to get value, or improve your team, then DET isn't in the conversation. We have financial flexibility, tons of it, and only the Jazz are close in terms of DET's willingess and ability to taek on enough salary to get under the tax. So if you find yourself needing to cut $12.4M to slide under the tax, it's Langdon in DET, or Ainge in UTA you have to talk to.

If your primary reason for moving him -- or anyone else -- is to shave salary, then the financial breakdown is what will determine the values exchanged. That's really all I'm saying. DET doesn't need to take on extra salary, and doesn't value short-term wins, so unless DET has incentive, they probably wait to leverage their cap space when teams are more desperate to cut their tax bill right around the draft.

[BBallFreak]

You quote part of my post, cutting out the part where I said DET should get roughly half the value created -- not all, half. Now you're moving the goal posts, as well as miss-stating my original argument in this post, and doing yet another partial quote which muddies the water even more.

You have a bad part of quoting a single sentence or phrase from a post, removing the context, and then 3 replies later arguing about the ignored part. If you skim read, fine, I know you're busy and read/post a lot. But so do I, and I'm not going to waste more time on this.

The part that neither of you is considering is the other teams in this league. Robinson isn't valueless, which means we're not going to pay to get rid of him (not even a couple of seconds). If we wanted to move him, it would be pretty easy and likely for smaller, more moveable contracts plus an asset (even a couple of seconds). You cannot tell me that a contender wouldn't have interest.

The other part of this is his value to Miami. He is a gravity player. His constant motion, incredible shot, and surprisingly complete offensive game make him crucial to what we do offensively. That makes it less likely we'd want to move him, especially as nothing but a salary dump.

Haven't given much thought to Robinson's value -- for a good reason. Yes, in the discussion, it is assumed that Miami needs to dump salary at the TDL and Miami hasn't found a better way to do it.

If your primary reason to move him is to get value, or improve your team, then DET isn't in the conversation. We have financial flexibility, tons of it, and only the Jazz are close in terms of DET's willingess and ability to taek on enough salary to get under the tax. So if you find yourself needing to cut $12.4M to slide under the tax, it's Langdon in DET, or Ainge in UTA you have to talk to.

If your primary reason for moving him -- or anyone else -- is to shave salary, then the financial breakdown is what will determine the values exchanged. That's really all I'm saying. DET doesn't need to take on extra salary, and doesn't value short-term wins, so unless DET has incentive, they probably wait to leverage their cap space when teams are more desperate to cut their tax bill right around the draft.

That's great.

What I'm saying is Miami doesn't need to do that, and certainly not involving Robinson.

But again, even if they wanted to trade Robinson and to dump salary, wouldn't they be smarter to link in a third team who actually values the player, get two smaller contacts, trade one of them to you for a lesser asset (a second round pick) and get a guy they actually want?

[Godaddycurse]

I think robinsons value is negative. No defense 3 pt shooters go for sub 10 mil this past offseason

[wadenation305]

The Heat FO would laugh this off the phone

[oldncreaky]

I think the poster is referring to they then traded him to the Spurs with a second round pick.

thats for a total of about 13M after getting rid of mcdaniels. Toronto the trade netted them about 7M at the time

Ok. I was just trying to guess why you referred to it as three second round picks.

And even with Davion having a very solid Killian Hayes type season, I still kind of wish Detroit was the team that traded for him. Detroit, having the cap space, could’ve got three seconds out of the kings for him and the PF (name escapes me) who eventually voided his contract

Aside: I watched a lot of Killian Hayes, and I've watched Davion this season. They are far apart in terms of on-court contribution in their respective 4th years. I was relieved when DET released Hayes; OTOH I like Davion as a 3rd or 4th guard, and if Toronto can extend him for something like 3yrs/$25-$30M if think that's a decent deal. Hayes was released because he had no value, or even negative value; OTOH Mitchell has a value of maybe a decent SRP, give or take.

Clarifying: I was referring to the June 2024 SAC-TOR trade of Davion Mitchell, Sasha Vezenkov and 2 decent SRPs for McDaniels (not the good one, the unplayable one) as a good measuring stick for trades made purely for financial reasons. That trade also shaved about $7M off of SAC's salary cap and allowed SAC to duck the tax, with IIRC a total financial impact of SAC (gain) of around $25M in salary, tax and distribution

Getting back to the OP: Miami gives up Player(s) X and receives Player(s) Y, and saves $12.5M in salary, ducks the tax, qualifies for a tax payout, and shave $20M off next year's salary -- something around $75M in total financial gain for Miami. For trying to value the trade, I'm assuming that, given each team's situation, financial reasons are the only reason Miami and Detroit are motivated to trade with each other. It's about the money, not the players.

If you take the SAC-TOR trade as a measuring stick for how to value financial relief, TOR got around 3-4 SRPs of value for providing $25M in financial benefit to SAC. If Miami were to get roughly 3 times as much financial relief for a mere couple of SRPs, that's an outstanding deal for MIA. I think DET could and would try and negotiate for more of the benefit, with the midpoint being around $35-$40M of "value" for each team, whatever that works out to in SRPs or equivalent sent to DET (4? 5?)

[breezypeezy]

I do not believe Detroit will include Beasley in any package outgoing.

[oldncreaky]

I do not believe Detroit will include Beasley in any package outgoing.

He's been a huge pleasant surprise

However, he has an expiring contract, and I really don't expect him back in DET, and even if he did come back, we probably wouldn't need his bird rights to sign him. Beasley at $6M, who looks playable, could look very enticing to a team that is desperate to cut their tax bill and is willing to cough up some FRPs to offload a bad contract or two.

[GreekAlex]

I do not believe Detroit will include Beasley in any package outgoing.

He's been a huge pleasant surprise

However, he has an expiring contract, and I really don't expect him back in DET, and even if he did come back, we probably wouldn't need his bird rights to sign him. Beasley at $6M, who looks playable, could look very enticing to a team that is desperate to cut their tax bill and is willing to cough up some FRPs to offload a bad contract or two.

I might be overvaluing Beasley as a Pistons fan but I see him as a long term piece.

He’s young enough to stick with this group and his contributions exceed his stats.

His timely 3’s swing the momentum of games and his personality keeps his younger teammates loose.

Obviously he’s not untouchable but I think he’s worth more to the Pistons than another team at this stage of their core’s development.

[Laimbeer]

If the Piston front office was smart (they aren't) they'd stop giving cap for overpaid vet shooters and SRPs. Cap space is at such a premium I'd insist on a FRP for any salary relief.

[GreekAlex]

If the Piston front office was smart (they aren't) they'd stop giving cap for overpaid vet shooters and SRPs. Cap space is at such a premium I'd insist on a FRP for any salary relief.

I’m cautiously optimistic that Trajon will be better than Weaver.