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2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2

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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#701 » by Shewasfly » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:05 am

AirP. wrote:
Shewasfly wrote:
AirP. wrote:
Spoiler:
It's about maximizing a known quantity that Miami is giving the max to vs using him as a spacer. What scares a defense more, a 3pt shooter like Herro with the ball with a guy like Bam spacing or Bam having the ball with a 3pt shooter like Herro spacing? Then again, maybe it's a 3pt shooter like Herro with a 3pt shooting as his spacer (which isn't Bam). The offense isn't built for Bam, it's putting up nearly 40 3s a game which teams have to worry about more than Bam getting a shot here or there. I personally think Bam won't be in Miami in a few seasons, I think he's being phased out of the offense because of the lack of 3pt shooting.

BTW, I think Bam is a limited offensive player, I'm just wanting him to become a bigger threat (which means the ball in his hands, doesn't mean he's shooting it) for teams to worry about vs being a below average spacer.

It just seems odd people don't think roles have anything to do with player's effectiveness. Sometimes a player needs to be in the flow of the offense to be effective and it could take a while if it ever happens to being good without being in the flow of the offense, that's where why some people excel as role-players even if they're not the most talented players.


You say it's about maximizing a known quantity and I say that's exactly what we're doing. What we've been doing. He has the ball in his hands a ton, but he mostly ends up just facilitating for better offensive players like Tyler or shooters who are willing to shoot like Duncan. But we have all seen and called out during games times where Bam will get the ball, have a wide open lane or jumper, and do nothing with it. Or he'll be so hesitant that he just ends up messing it up. Essentially a turnover. And he knows it, which is why the majority of the time he makes the choice he does to pass. Keep in mind, we are also small because of Bam. That thing we all complain about ad nauseam on here? Yeah, a huge part of that is to accommodate Bam's limitations on offense.

The fact is, you can't draw blood from a stone. Bam is not a player that you can give the ball and look to to get a bucket. He's also not a guy who defenses will start inching towards and looking to collapse on when he has the ball in his hands, making it easier for other guys. He's the guy who sets great screens for others, DHOs, and here and there can take a less athletic big off the dribble, if they're not too tall or solid physically. I would actually like to see Bam develop more of a UD style game, where he is that outlet to a #1, spotting up immediately after a screen to take a mid range standstill J. That's about the ONLY thing I can say we don't see enough of out of him. But even that is mostly a decision Bam is making when the ball gets kicked back to him (and to be fair, we don't have a #1 kicking it to him).

Its not about not acknowledging roles, it's about using your eyes to see what a player is capable of and accepting it for what it is. The conversation continually being framed as if the coaching staff is doing something to prevent some offensive juggernaut that is lying within Bam is laughable and needs to stop. They're working with what they have with Bam as far as his capabilities.


I don't think Bam is some offensive juggernaut, I think he can score some near the basket and is a good passer as a center, back when he was more of a focus of the offense Bam's career average calculated ORTG, is 117 in 8 seasons. Herro, having the best season by far of his career is putting up a calculated ORTG of... 118. Bams has had 2 seasons of over 120 so far in his career, the reason for previous years being so low in scoring was Herro's shot diet of loving the midrange shot while being a very good 3pt shooter.

Right now, Miami has an ORTG of 114.1, previous season in descending order... 114.0, 113.0, 113.7, 111.2, and 111.5, the issue, the defense has become worse at a higher rate than the offense has gotten good.

Maybe it's time to sell not only Butler but Bam too and just lean into 3pt shooting with a big rim protector. I don't think you're going to like the success that does/doesn't bring Miami.

Keep using your eyes, I'll continue to look at actual production and success.


Well, it must be Jimmy eyes too. You are free to keep looking at your numbers and calculations though. I just know what I see as far as Bam's offensive limitations and how the coaching tries to accommodate for it.

I'm not even dumping on Bam. I actually think keeping Jimmy helps Bam, and I prefer to keep Jimmy if we can. Jimmy keeps the focus off of Bam underperforming, so you should love that. But more than that, I actually think it's going to be too hard, damn near impossible, to replace Jimmy with a player of his caliber that will be able to carry he and Tyler the way Jimmy often does come playoff time. None of those types of players are available and they are hard to come by. I think the people clamoring to get rid of Jimmy for picks are underestimating that. It should be the absolute last resort.

That said, if Jimmy goes...You don't have to tell me twice about selling high on Bam. He's never been untouchable to me. I'm just one of the few that has been willing to say it. Although, I think it might be too late to sell high anyway. But you've set up a false dichotomy that selling on him would mean the only option is to get a big rim protector, which certainly isn't the case.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#702 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:07 am

marson wrote:Did anyone catch OKC’s game plan against Herro yesterday? Y’all are wild if you’re still hating on him. He went up against a top-5 defense and still delivered, even without another scoring threat on the floor. As a former Herro critic, I have to admit, the improvements are undeniable.

Teams are now focusing their game plans on Herro more than Bam.


Who was hating on Herro?
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#703 » by al bondiga » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:45 am

spo man... I'm Getting the distinct feeling that Your cycle in the heat is done.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#704 » by Shewasfly » Sun Dec 22, 2024 2:46 am

Shewasfly wrote:
AirP. wrote:
Shewasfly wrote:
You say it's about maximizing a known quantity and I say that's exactly what we're doing. What we've been doing. He has the ball in his hands a ton, but he mostly ends up just facilitating for better offensive players like Tyler or shooters who are willing to shoot like Duncan. But we have all seen and called out during games times where Bam will get the ball, have a wide open lane or jumper, and do nothing with it. Or he'll be so hesitant that he just ends up messing it up. Essentially a turnover. And he knows it, which is why the majority of the time he makes the choice he does to pass. Keep in mind, we are also small because of Bam. That thing we all complain about ad nauseam on here? Yeah, a huge part of that is to accommodate Bam's limitations on offense.

The fact is, you can't draw blood from a stone. Bam is not a player that you can give the ball and look to to get a bucket. He's also not a guy who defenses will start inching towards and looking to collapse on when he has the ball in his hands, making it easier for other guys. He's the guy who sets great screens for others, DHOs, and here and there can take a less athletic big off the dribble, if they're not too tall or solid physically. I would actually like to see Bam develop more of a UD style game, where he is that outlet to a #1, spotting up immediately after a screen to take a mid range standstill J. That's about the ONLY thing I can say we don't see enough of out of him. But even that is mostly a decision Bam is making when the ball gets kicked back to him (and to be fair, we don't have a #1 kicking it to him).

Its not about not acknowledging roles, it's about using your eyes to see what a player is capable of and accepting it for what it is. The conversation continually being framed as if the coaching staff is doing something to prevent some offensive juggernaut that is lying within Bam is laughable and needs to stop. They're working with what they have with Bam as far as his capabilities.


I don't think Bam is some offensive juggernaut, I think he can score some near the basket and is a good passer as a center, back when he was more of a focus of the offense Bam's career average calculated ORTG, is 117 in 8 seasons. Herro, having the best season by far of his career is putting up a calculated ORTG of... 118. Bams has had 2 seasons of over 120 so far in his career, the reason for previous years being so low in scoring was Herro's shot diet of loving the midrange shot while being a very good 3pt shooter.

Right now, Miami has an ORTG of 114.1, previous season in descending order... 114.0, 113.0, 113.7, 111.2, and 111.5, the issue, the defense has become worse at a higher rate than the offense has gotten good.

Maybe it's time to sell not only Butler but Bam too and just lean into 3pt shooting with a big rim protector. I don't think you're going to like the success that does/doesn't bring Miami.

Keep using your eyes, I'll continue to look at actual production and success.


Well, it must be Jimmy eyes too. You are free to keep looking at your numbers and calculations though. I just know what I see as far as Bam's offensive limitations and how the coaching tries to accommodate for it.

I'm not even dumping on Bam. I actually think keeping Jimmy helps Bam, and I prefer to keep Jimmy if we can. Jimmy keeps the focus off of Bam underperforming, so you should love that. But more than that, I actually think it's going to be too hard, damn near impossible, to replace Jimmy with a player of his caliber that will be able to carry he and Tyler the way Jimmy often does come playoff time. None of those types of players are available and they are hard to come by. I think the people clamoring to get rid of Jimmy for picks are underestimating that. It should be the absolute last resort.

That said, if Jimmy goes...You don't have to tell me twice about selling high on Bam. He's never been untouchable to me. I'm just one of the few that has been willing to say it. Although, I think it might be too late to sell high anyway. But you've set up a false dichotomy that selling on him would mean the only option is to get a big rim protector, which certainly isn't the case.

Like I said...
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#705 » by Slot Machine » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:18 am

Hey guys, why aren’t we running the offense more through Bam? Surely it has nothing do with his TS% being 6% below league average and his complete lack of offensive bag or jump shot. It must be the coaching staff holding him back!
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#706 » by RexBoyWonder » Sun Dec 22, 2024 8:22 am

I know this team doesn't have elite talent, but you can't tell coaching has nothing to do with collapsing like we did in the Magic game.

Spo looks helpless out there, There's no clear direction with anything.

Are we a defending team? are we focused on out-scoring teams? are we playing our vets to maximize winning or are we playing struggling rookies? Is Highsmith a starter or out of the rotation? and Jovic?
And why isn't Ware getting a real chance? Why is Jamie getting guaranteed minutes? Why isn't Keshad Johnson getting a trial run?

There's no clear direction with anything, not Jimmy's future, not the rotation, not the timeline, not the team's makeup.

I think it's time for a philosophical change - build back the old school Heat identity.

players that don't fit that mold should be sent out ASAP - we should be prioritizing size, toughness, defense, athleticism and youth.

Herro is the only one that should be kept despite not fliting that mold. Because he enough scoring talent to justify it. Unlike Duncan and Rozier and Love.

Smith/Larsson
Herro/
Jimmy/Keshad
Highsmith/
Bam/Ware

I don't know how many wins this rotation will get But I'll tell you this much - they won't give up 120 points to chit teams, and the'll be a tough physical team with a clear plan and identity. A team to root for.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#707 » by 3ballbomber » Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:05 am

Beenie wrote:Can we agree that once Jimmy eventually leaves the team that it will have no real impact on Bam’s production

The guy simply doesn’t want to be the focus on offense nor is he good enough to warrant that

And he knows it

Bam just ain’t like that. I’ve said it many times over, he needs to work w/ a mindset trainer like Grover to build a killer instinct. His not cut from that cloth. You just have to look at all the hugs & hand shakes he invests post gm, even after heated matches.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#708 » by 3ballbomber » Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:09 am

VaDe255 wrote:
contract wrote:
Hallstar wrote:If we believed Jimmy could still carry the team in the reg season he would have his extension. Contract was still talking about Herro taking shots from our "best player"

Jimmy is our best player. Easily. Jimmy is better at 35 than Herro will ever be. That doesn't mean he should be extended because players get real old real fast once they hit their mid 30s.


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Catch-all metrics show Herro as their best offensive player and Bam as their best defensive player. Herro’s more skilled offensively, while Butler relies on craftiness and playing the “old man game” and his defense is not what it used to be.

Bam and Herro have also been there every night, at this point he isn't their undisputed best player.


While there’s no doubt Herro is far more skilled, Jimmy is our best player. His grit, competitiveness & toughness is unmatched. Those are traits of elite players. You just have to look at what we have achieved since we signed him. Remarkable achievements.
If u don't want 2b here, the way things work, u don't like it, then don't b here. U have 2 stand on something. If Miami ain't standing on something, they become alot of these organizations trying 2 find their identity. This is the culture, bro -Wade
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#709 » by 3ballbomber » Sun Dec 22, 2024 10:13 am

AirP. wrote:
VaDe255 wrote:
contract wrote:Jimmy is our best player. Easily. Jimmy is better at 35 than Herro will ever be. That doesn't mean he should be extended because players get real old real fast once they hit their mid 30s.


Image

Catch-all metrics show Herro as their best offensive player and Bam as their best defensive player. Herro’s more skilled offensively, while Butler relies on craftiness and playing the “old man game” and his defense is not what it used to be.

Bam and Herro have also been there every night, at this point he isn't their undisputed best player.

The issue with this is... welcome to the middle with little to no chance in the playoffs.

IMO, the offense should be built around Bam but instead it's built around spreading the court out and Bam is mostly a spacer. For the 3rd season in a row Bam and Butler's rate of shots, scoring and usage (they're all tied together) are dropping which also coincides with Herro starting, seems like the wrong direction to be utilizing max players as Bam as he's in his prime now and Butler seems to be playing at a pretty high level. On Herro although he isn't a good defender, it is encouraging that he's being more active on the defensive side which helps his effectiveness as a team defender.

Who knows, maybe with the drafting of and developing of Ware the FO is preparing to move on from Bam in the next few season since as a 4 he's not a good 3pt shooter which Spoelstra and the league seems to want to go towards at as many positions as possible. Ware's size should help some of the defense that isn't really there when Bam's off the court, especially in the zone as he won't be so eager to defend parameter players looking to switch to get closer to the basket.

The whole league is heading towards almost having a whole lineup on the court who can shoot 3s since there are currently 100 different players shooting over the league average at 3pt range of 36% and 129 shooting 34% or higher (1.2 pts per shot, 120 points per 100 possessions). With so many people able to make that shot, it needs to be made more difficult to be worth 50% more than a regular shot. The game needs to evolve before over half the shots a night is the average, right now 11 teams (including Miami at 39.1 3pa) have a shot to get to 40 3s per game for the season.


This is crazy. Riles & Spo laud Bam
If u don't want 2b here, the way things work, u don't like it, then don't b here. U have 2 stand on something. If Miami ain't standing on something, they become alot of these organizations trying 2 find their identity. This is the culture, bro -Wade
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#710 » by Beenie » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:42 pm

Jimmy’s IQ is savant-like contrasted to the rest of the Tito’s who all have pea brains by comparison.

The stupid mistakes that lead to turnovers, low percentage shots, or empty possessions is an epidemic amongst the rest of the team
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#711 » by RexBoyWonder » Sun Dec 22, 2024 2:11 pm

Beenie wrote:Jimmy’s IQ is savant-like contrasted to the rest of the Tito’s who all have pea brains by comparison.

The stupid mistakes that lead to turnovers, low percentage shots, or empty possessions is an epidemic amongst the rest of the team

Bam and Hero are both not great decision makers.

Smith and Larsson seem to be high IQ.

The issue is more about size and talent then BBIQ though.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#712 » by MartianTimeSlip » Sun Dec 22, 2024 2:16 pm

I would trade Jimmy to a contender to give him a chance to win because, he's not winning anything with this team.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#713 » by twix2500 » Sun Dec 22, 2024 2:56 pm

RexBoyWonder wrote:
Beenie wrote:Jimmy’s IQ is savant-like contrasted to the rest of the Tito’s who all have pea brains by comparison.

The stupid mistakes that lead to turnovers, low percentage shots, or empty possessions is an epidemic amongst the rest of the team

Bam and Hero are both not great decision makers.

Smith and Larsson seem to be high IQ.

The issue is more about size and talent then BBIQ though.
Need another guy with size that can help rebound in traffic. Jovic is just still too young, Ware is way too young also. He helps but he still gets punked too much. Michael Porter Jr might be a player thou expensive that can be a good mature player with size next to Bam

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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#714 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:15 pm

You would think Bam had 8 points on 17 shots the way mfers are acting like the entire loss was on him :lol:

I just laugh at it, this fanbase is ass
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#715 » by wadenation305 » Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:16 pm

Spo never changes, when the players can run his system he looks amazing, and is a defensive savant. But when the personnel does not fit his game plan. He will NEVER ADJUST IT. It is evident by his favorite mantra "Dont let go of the rope" he only changes things when he has not other option and is forced. If There was only 2 guys available from the bench, one being Smith and the other Ware. Spo would sub in Smith at the 5!

Deep down everyone knows this is the truth. And what would happen. Spo has an obsession with winning "his way". I hope when Riley retires if spo stays as coach that the new guy grabs him by the neck and tells him to play size or he'll find someone who will.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#716 » by DayofMourning » Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:35 pm

With the way Ware changed the game once he came in, Im thinking we need to find another Ware. These guys really balance our team out.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#717 » by twix2500 » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:08 pm

I feel bad because I didnt want to tell you guys to not get too high off that four game winning streak, now many have a lot of hurt emotions
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#718 » by marson » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:24 pm

Bam getting a lot of flaks in X and Reddit. He is becoming overrated in many eyes. 50 million per annum.
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#719 » by 3ammy3uck3ts » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:26 pm

twix2500 wrote:I feel bad because I didnt want to tell you guys to not get too high off that four game winning streak, now many have a lot of hurt emotions


Everyone should know by now what to expect with this group. Mediocre regular season leading to the play in where they usually flip the switch and make a run. In the end regardless of how far they go they will ultimately fall short relying on too many guys that could arguably not be in the league after we made no improvements to the roster. Rinse and repeat
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Re: 2024-25 Regular Season Thread Vol. 2 

Post#720 » by eddieheatfan » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:26 pm

marson wrote:Bam getting a lot of flaks in X and Reddit. He is becoming overrated in many eyes. 50 million per annum.
could you send me the links pls nevermind i found it

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