Cade Cunningham should be an all star

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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#61 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 21, 2024 8:04 pm

Mr Peanut wrote:With respect, you've admitted to watching only 6 out of Cade's 24 games this season so I'm not certain I have much faith in your opinion here. In the second game against the Knicks Cade dropped a 29 point 15 assist triple double and led the Pistons to a win, and you think Brunson outplayed him? And I'm the one being hyperbolic? I'm just going to assume you missed that game too.


It was an excellent game. You can argue either way, but if you don't want to respect what Brunson did in that game, then I'm not going to carry on that angle of conversation with you.

It's not that I don't like the advanced stats, it's that posters are using them as the sole measuring stick rather than as complementary data, which is what they should be. All the individual metrics are flawed to some extent, so someone saying "the EPM is X and therefore he's not an All-Star" is just incredibly close minded.


Sure, I get that. But that isn't actually the argument that I advanced. That was just part of it.

He's an inefficient volume scorer who does other things well on a sub-.500 team. That says several things, some of them good and some of them not. Like I said, his playmaking is something to appreciate, for sure. His scoring is very much not, even acknowledging the team environment in which he plays.

The main argument against Cade being an All-Star, at least from my POV, is about the other guys in the league at the moment. Not that Cade is bad. He certainly isn't an ATG in hiding, but he's still got very clear skill and is in the middle of what is the best season of his career so far. And that's great, and everything, but there is a LOT of talent in the league right now.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#62 » by Mr Peanut » Sat Dec 21, 2024 10:46 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Mr Peanut wrote:With respect, you've admitted to watching only 6 out of Cade's 24 games this season so I'm not certain I have much faith in your opinion here. In the second game against the Knicks Cade dropped a 29 point 15 assist triple double and led the Pistons to a win, and you think Brunson outplayed him? And I'm the one being hyperbolic? I'm just going to assume you missed that game too.


It was an excellent game. You can argue either way, but if you don't want to respect what Brunson did in that game, then I'm not going to carry on that angle of conversation with you.

It's not that I don't like the advanced stats, it's that posters are using them as the sole measuring stick rather than as complementary data, which is what they should be. All the individual metrics are flawed to some extent, so someone saying "the EPM is X and therefore he's not an All-Star" is just incredibly close minded.


Sure, I get that. But that isn't actually the argument that I advanced. That was just part of it.

He's an inefficient volume scorer who does other things well on a sub-.500 team. That says several things, some of them good and some of them not. Like I said, his playmaking is something to appreciate, for sure. His scoring is very much not, even acknowledging the team environment in which he plays.

The main argument against Cade being an All-Star, at least from my POV, is about the other guys in the league at the moment. Not that Cade is bad. He certainly isn't an ATG in hiding, but he's still got very clear skill and is in the middle of what is the best season of his career so far. And that's great, and everything, but there is a LOT of talent in the league right now.


Fair points. I think the inefficiency aspect is a little bit overblown though - definitely in his first and second seasons that was a fair criticism, but he is getting better. His TS is 55.1% this season with the NBA average being 58%, and that overall number is generally inflated by C/PFs and I suspect he is close to average for guards. His lower TS is also heavily influenced by the fact he gets one of the worst whistles in the league (even non-Pistons fans have said that), and if even a couple of those FGA attempts per game become FTA then his TS would jump quite heavily. He is shooting 39% from three on over 6 attempts per game which is impressive.

There is a lot of talent among East guards so I appreciate the path is difficult. He certainly deserves it over guys like Haliburton. Brunson likely gets it over him, which will also be influenced by reputation/team record. Lillard will get a spot. It might come down to him and LaMelo.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#63 » by tsherkin » Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:32 pm

Mr Peanut wrote:Fair points. I think the inefficiency aspect is a little bit overblown though - definitely in his first and second seasons that was a fair criticism, but he is getting better. His TS is 55.1% this season with the NBA average being 58%, and that overall number is generally inflated by C/PFs and I suspect he is close to average for guards.


No, this is also isn't an argument I tend to respect because the good scorers of the league are positive rTS guys. Being that far below league average is bad, big men notwithstanding; in fact, it is hot dog ass, one of only 9 of those dudes who is actually below league average (which is 57.4% TS at the moment). Among guys who have played 20+ games and are scoring 20+ ppg this season so far, Cade is 33rd of 37. That is terrible, and is not the product of his draw rate by proportion. He does have trouble getting a whistle, but he also isn't good at getting to the rim, and isn't good when he gets there. That is a much larger factor, though obviously the unfavorable whistle contributes.

Obviously, I would expect his specific numbers to improve with more passing support, better spacing, etc, etc. That seems natural. But guys who have the tools to be dominant scorers don't typically struggle this badly even on bad teams. What this does is illustrate a dearth of ability to sustain that volume. Obviously, someone needs to do it for the Pistons and no one else has even the tools that he's got, which is fine. He's better than he looks (as a scorer, since again, the rest of his game is very much of a different quality), to one degree or another, but that's still not terribly encouraging.

I don't want to harp on this too much because he's doing a lot of other positive things and he's a net-positive offensive player in a bad situation anyway. But no, arguing that position is a factor isn't really a helpful angle for him.

There are many reasons to be optimistic about him, and about his play over the first quarter of the season. His 3pt shooting has been quite good, and we've been sort of waiting for that for a while now based on his shooting ability elsewhere. He's a career 84.5% FT shooter with a strong mid-range game, he's over 40% on long 2s over his career and he's a career 37% shooter from the corners. The markers that he SHOULD be able to hit a decent percentage from 3 have been there for a minute. And last year he made a pretty big step forward up to 35.5%, which wasn't amazing, but was very encouraging. And seems to be carrying forward plus this year, which is nice to see.



There is a lot of talent among East guards so I appreciate the path is difficult. He certainly deserves it over guys like Haliburton. Brunson likely gets it over him, which will also be influenced by reputation/team record. Lillard will get a spot. It might come down to him and LaMelo.


Brunson is a better player. If he gets in over Cade, it will be well-earned. Between him and Ball, LaMelo has been having a considerably better offensive season. He has his own issues, of course, but is likewise playing in a bad situation. We'll see if he stays on the court enough to be around for an AS selection, though. Haliburton has been a huge disappointment compared to his last two seasons. His shot has just vanished and he hasn't been the same dynamo as a playmaker, which is interesting. And he remains... less than ideal on defense. xD Definitely not his year so far.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#64 » by Godymas » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:29 am

I'm looking at the East right now and the All Star selections are going to be quite interesting due to Orlando having injuries.

Starting 5 feels locked right now

G - Donovan Mitchell
G - Dame Lillard
F - Jayson Tatum
F - Giannis
C - KAT

Easy lock, doubt anything changes with that

then there comes the bench, and that's where things get a little interesting, I think Cleveland ends up being a 3-4 All Star team, mostly because the F and C position are AWFUL in the East right now.

G - Jalen Brunson - 100% a lock
G - Darius Garland/Cade/LaMelo/Herro/Trae/Maxey
G - Darius Garland/Cade/LaMelo/Herro/Trae/Maxey
F - Jimmy Butler
F - Evan Mobley
F - Pascal Siakam
C - Jarrett Allen

Now the F and C in the East are truthfully not good. It should have been Franz and Paolo with a Butler or Mobley, but it won't be due to injury. Also the only other C that sticks out in the East behind KAT and Allen is literally Vucevic but I REALLY doubt he gets the nod. I don't think Bam has been good enough to get any recognition.

The guard position is stacked. Of the guys I mentioned everyone has a major flaw.

Garland - he plays with a stacked team, but he should get one of the spots because he has been good.

Cade - he is good and has a case

Herro - he is having a career year and the Heat are better than the Pistons, 6ers, and Hawks

Young - he is the engine but his efficiency has been terrible so he likely doesn't get it and Johnson is the rep

Maxey - efficiency is not good and the 6ers suck, likely doesn't get the nod.

LolMelo - dude literally plays ignorant basketball, chucks shots on average efficiency, some might even say that it is disgraceful. Charlotte is not a good team at all despite his #s

So with that said, if Cade gets it, it's because Cleveland has so many guys in and the coaches choose to put him in. Does he deserve it? Yes he does imo, but winning matters too and Garland has been great this year overall.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#65 » by DCasey91 » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:41 am

G: Brunson
G: Mitchell
G: Lillard
G: Garland
G: White

F: Giannis
F: Tatum
F: Wagner
F: Butler

C: Towns
C: Mobley

Those are my locks. Definite chance but Herro, Young, Ball, Siakam, Brown, Adebayo make it a small one

.... I'd rather Pritchard get the ALL STAR because he is in my heart.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#66 » by One_and_Done » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:48 am

Sometimes guys in the East will sneak in undeservedly, just look at the last few years, but I think it'll be tough for Cade to get in this year.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#67 » by Mr Peanut » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:34 am

Cade goes into Phoenix: 28 points, 13 assists, 4 stocks on 63.4% TS and a wire to wire win. Even a few MVP chants on his final three throws :lol:.

In his last 8 games since returning from a brief injury - 25.3 ppg, 11.5 apg, 6.8 rpg (on 60% TS, just to satisfy the efficiency analyzers).

Not an All-Star though.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#68 » by TroubleS0me » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:43 am

He's is an all star. He's playing better than the most forwards in the East
its only Tatum, Giannis that are ahead of him.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#69 » by Han Solo » Sun Dec 22, 2024 11:06 am

He’s an all-star. Right now he will be all-nba if he keeps up his pace. Pistons have won almost as many games as they won all last year.

Proud of Cade and what he’s doing. By the end of the year, he will be one of the top players in the NBA.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#70 » by Han Solo » Sun Dec 22, 2024 11:07 am

Mr Peanut wrote:Cade goes into Phoenix: 28 points, 13 assists, 4 stocks on 63.4% TS and a wire to wire win. Even a few MVP chants on his final three throws :lol:.

In his last 8 games since returning from a brief injury - 25.3 ppg, 11.5 apg, 6.8 rpg (on 60% TS, just to satisfy the efficiency analyzers).

Not an All-Star though.

This is literally the only forum I’ve found on the internet saying Cade isn’t an all-star. Lmfao.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#71 » by Han Solo » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:21 pm

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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#72 » by zeebneeb » Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:27 pm

Han Solo wrote:
Mr Peanut wrote:Cade goes into Phoenix: 28 points, 13 assists, 4 stocks on 63.4% TS and a wire to wire win. Even a few MVP chants on his final three throws :lol:.

In his last 8 games since returning from a brief injury - 25.3 ppg, 11.5 apg, 6.8 rpg (on 60% TS, just to satisfy the efficiency analyzers).

Not an All-Star though.

This is literally the only forum I’ve found on the internet saying Cade isn’t an all-star. Lmfao.
As someone mentioned previously, it's ego. It's tough to admit you may have been wrong.

We'll see.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#73 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:18 pm

zeebneeb wrote:
Han Solo wrote:
Mr Peanut wrote:Cade goes into Phoenix: 28 points, 13 assists, 4 stocks on 63.4% TS and a wire to wire win. Even a few MVP chants on his final three throws :lol:.

In his last 8 games since returning from a brief injury - 25.3 ppg, 11.5 apg, 6.8 rpg (on 60% TS, just to satisfy the efficiency analyzers).

Not an All-Star though.

This is literally the only forum I’ve found on the internet saying Cade isn’t an all-star. Lmfao.
As someone mentioned previously, it's ego. It's tough to admit you may have been wrong.

We'll see.


Certainly isn't ego for me. It's just that I think other guys are better.

Mr Peanut wrote:Cade goes into Phoenix: 28 points, 13 assists, 4 stocks on 63.4% TS and a wire to wire win. Even a few MVP chants on his final three throws :lol:.

In his last 8 games since returning from a brief injury - 25.3 ppg, 11.5 apg, 6.8 rpg (on 60% TS, just to satisfy the efficiency analyzers).

Not an All-Star though.


Using a single game to justify anything rarely goes anywhere useful. It was an excellent game.

In his last 8 games, he's shooting 43.6% from 3 on 6.9 3PA/g. I doubt very much that he maintains that level of shooting proficiency from deep over the remainder of the season, minding that he's never shot 36% from 3 before. Trusting small samples like that is problematic at best; we see it every season, year after year after year.

When that shot cools down, he'll settle back to where he was before. Which is still quite good.

He's been better than Tyrese Maxey, worse than Darius Garland. So has Ball. Trae has been pretty rough as a scorer so far, which leaves him an interesting debate. Herro is definitely the better scorer, so then you have to start weighing playing with inefficient scoring vs highly efficient scoring (like +5% rTS on comparable volume) with limited playmaking.

But now we're starting to see the depth of talent Cade has to overcome in order to get onto the team and it's pretty significant. If he does, then it's probably a bad move (though the ASG is known for those), at least IMHO, barring major change between now and the ASB.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#74 » by ValvPiti » Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:50 pm

Why would he settle into where he was before? He's just turned 23. Players are improving.

I personally think its laughable to pick Herro over Cade at this point. That would be insulting. Lillard, Mitchell and Brunson I can understand (although they also clearly have the good team-buff), but Cade is next in line. Look at what Maxey is when he's alone to fend for himself like Cade is most nights. Trae? Hell naw. If Hawks should have an all-star, it should be JJ.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#75 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 2:03 pm

ValvPiti wrote:Why would he settle into where he was before? He's just turned 23. Players are improving.


I was specifically talking about his 3pt shooting with that remark.

He isn't just going to suddenly going from bad/mediocre to "Steph Curry." There will be normalization after a shooting streak like that. In four of the 8 games, he went 4/6, 3/6, 3/6 and 5/8, which dominates the shooting sample (which is otherwise 3/9, 0/4, 3/8 and 3/8). That heavily influences the overall average.

I personally think its laughable to pick Herro over Cade at this point. That would be insulting.


I don't agree. I think the choice between the two of them is quite debatable, though, which is why I phrased things as I did.

Lillard, Mitchell and Brunson I can understand (although they also clearly have the good team-buff), but Cade is next in line. Look at what Maxey is when he's alone to fend for himself like Cade is most nights. Trae? Hell naw. If Hawks should have an all-star, it should be JJ.


And again with Trae, that's why I left it open. He's a better playmaker, but his scoring has always been a problem and when his 3 isn't falling, he's a disaster on that front. And it isn't right now. And while he continues to draw fouls well (and far better than Cade), it isn't good enough to make up for his inability to hit shots. Or how he's even worse than Cade at getting to the basket (though he finishes better when he gets there).
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#76 » by JackTalkThai » Sun Dec 22, 2024 2:40 pm

Cade on the season:
24-10-7-1-1 — 46/39/78

Cade in December:
25 PPG
12 APG
7 RPG
1 SPG
1 BPG
42% 3PT
50% FG


Cade’s last 10 games…
28 PTS 13 ASTS 2 BLKS
33 PTS 7 ASTS 4 REBS 4 BLKS
20 PTS 18 ASTS 11 REBS
18 PTS 8 ASTS 8 REBS 1 BLK
29 PTS 15 ASTS 10 REBS
27 PTS 13 ASTS 9 REBS
23 PTS 6 ASTS 5 REBS 1 STL
24 PTS 11 ASTS 6 REBS 2 STLS
27 PTS 10 ASTS 7 REBS
26 PTS 10 ASTS 6 REBS
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#77 » by whitehops » Sun Dec 22, 2024 2:51 pm

i think cade's problem is just that a lot of people don't watch the pistons. i don't blame them, they've been a dumpster fire the last few years (seems like forever for pistons fans). but now they have some capable vets and they're trying to win, hopefully people start tuning in so they can appreciate what a talent he is.

he's made some noticeable leaps in a bunch of aspects of his game and he's fun to watch.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#78 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:12 pm

whitehops wrote:i think cade's problem is just that a lot of people don't watch the pistons.


I don't think that is really it. I think it's primarily that he doesn't stack up with a lot of the other AS-level guys out there, many of whom are playing in fairly rough environments as well.

I think most people here who don't think that he's an AS are sitting on a similar stance, though, that he's not THAT far away from it, he's just not doing enough to advance himself ahead of the competition at the moment. We're halfway or so to the ASB, though, so we'll see what happens over the next 20, 30 games. Things can change over that sort of sample easily enough.

he's made some noticeable leaps in a bunch of aspects of his game and he's fun to watch.


This is certainly true, and it's nice to see. He's still quite young, and his playmaking is something to really keep an eye on, because it's the best feature of his game. Seems to have improved on D as well, which is nice, though not the deciding factor in anything.

We've seen good guys on bad teams before. A lot. And we've seen what they have looked like as scorers, and that leaves a pretty good estimation of what we should expect from a guy in that type of situation. And I think we're all aware of the athleticism/skill curve relationship, too, and where Cade sits on that relative to the big guns in the league.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#79 » by tmorgan » Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:54 pm

Here’s a point, then, tsherkin — you see his playmaking as the strongest part of his game, and I agree. Trying to be an elite playmaker on a dumpster fire of a team (which describes the Pistons during Cade’s tenure until this year — now they’re mildly competitive) is REALLY difficult. Even on this team, the only real shooting bright spot outside of Cade is Malik Beasley, who has been pretty awesome in his role. THJ started well, got knocked around, and has since been just ok. Tobias Harris has disappointed, Fontecchio’s hot streak hasn’t carried over from last year, and a lot of the rest of the roster are just poor shooters in general.

Cade has been trying to lead a dysfunctional team, often with dysfunctional coaching and upper management, and the results have been poor. He finally has some semblance of a roster and a coach that both cares and knows his stuff, and lo and behold, we look decent.

I believe Cade is highly regarded by other players and teams. He looked strong leading the Select Team before the Olympics, and he does often look like the best player on the floor against higher quality teams. He still has work to do (things I mentioned earlier in the thread), and he indeed may not make the All-Star Team this year, but I think he would if it was player-only voting, executive-only voting, or stats-only voting. As I started this response with, his team is holding him back. He’s certainly elevating the squad, but perhaps not yet far enough.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#80 » by cgf » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:00 pm

I'm in.
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