Cade Cunningham should be an all star

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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#81 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:37 pm

tmorgan wrote:Here’s a point, then, tsherkin — you see his playmaking as the strongest part of his game, and I agree. Trying to be an elite playmaker on a dumpster fire of a team (which describes the Pistons during Cade’s tenure until this year — now they’re mildly competitive) is REALLY difficult. Even on this team, the only real shooting bright spot outside of Cade is Malik Beasley, who has been pretty awesome in his role. THJ started well, got knocked around, and has since been just ok. Tobias Harris has disappointed, Fontecchio’s hot streak hasn’t carried over from last year, and a lot of the rest of the roster are just poor shooters in general.


I'm with you so far.

As I started this response with, his team is holding him back.


I have acknowledged this repeatedly ITT, yes.

He’s certainly elevating the squad, but perhaps not yet far enough.


I said as much in my post recent post, so yes, still with you.

I take a conservative stance with him, but as I've prolifically noted ITT, I also acknowledge that he's improving and that his team context isn't helping him any. I don't think it's impossible that he'll improve... I'm just waiting for there to be a substantial sample from which to draw better inference about his shooting and other things. 8 games means nothing to me, so when people talk about that, I dismiss their remarks immediately, most especially when the shooting percentage is so wildly above someone's prior best and when there were atypical shooting performances involved, you know? It's just trivial nonsense at that point.

But Cade is clearly putting in the work and showing improvement, which is why I remarked about how much time we have before the ASB. We'll see what happens as things settle down. He's clearly putting in the time and showing capacity to improve, and that's excellent stuff.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#82 » by Han Solo » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:57 pm

Lmfao - let’s bump this all-star week tsherkin. We’ll see how smart you are then.

Cade is an all-star. Deal with it.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#83 » by MavsDirk41 » Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:58 pm

DCasey91 wrote:G: Brunson
G: Mitchell
G: Lillard
G: Garland
G: White

F: Giannis
F: Tatum
F: Wagner
F: Butler

C: Towns
C: Mobley

Those are my locks. Definite chance but Herro, Young, Ball, Siakam, Brown, Adebayo make it a small one

.... I'd rather Pritchard get the ALL STAR because he is in my heart.


Cade Cunningham deserves a spot over White and Lilliard.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#84 » by SpurNani » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:00 pm

Cade is that guy he has taken the next step. Franchise player
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#85 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:09 pm

SpurNani wrote:Cade is that guy he has taken the next step. Franchise player


Ugh. This is the kind of post which forces me to be more negative than I want about a developing player.

He has not taken a step enough to be called a franchise player. Not while his scoring its where it does right now. This should be extremely obvious at this point. Right now, the best-case framing for the top-end level of player he could be is Trae Young. That isn't a franchise player, that's a dude heavily over-taxed by his role. We'd need to see MAJOR improvement from Cade as a scorer before that label would become appropriate. It isn't something which every team has, they're rare.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#86 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:11 pm

Han Solo wrote:Lmfao - let’s bump this all-star week tsherkin. We’ll see how smart you are then.


This isn't about being smart. This is about opinion of player quality. Whether he gets selected or not is immaterial; we know the ASG is a farce. We see old guys getting voted in as a career achievement reward all the time.

Cade is an all-star. Deal with it.


No, that's not how this works. I voice my opinion, even if it is in disagreement with yours, and YOU deal with it.

It's fine if you want to believe that he's at that level, but I do not. And there's nothing you can do about it, so settle down.

And yes, as you say, we'll revisit it come the All-Star Weekend. If he's made it, there it is. If he's deserved it, which is a different matter entirely, then that's great for Detroit and nothing for me to be sad about.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#87 » by brackdan70 » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:12 pm

Looks like he is 15th ranked East guard In LEBRON and 7th is EPM
If you look at EPM Wins he climbs to 4th behind Brunson, White and Mitchell.
4.5 turnovers a game and a well below average TS% bring him down.
Box score stats look nice but there is more to the story.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#88 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:15 pm

brackdan70 wrote:Looks like he is 15th ranked East guard In LEBRON and 7th is RPM.
If you look at EPM Wins he climbs to 4th behind Brunson, White and Mitchell.
4.5 turnovers a game and a well below average TS% bring him down.
Box score stats look nice but there is more to the story.


As I said earlier, I don't think his turnovers are much cause for concern with his assist output. At almost 10 apg and better than 2:1 AST:TOV, he's not hurting too much with that. And all of Ben's passing/playmaking data suggests what watching him does as well, that he's doing an excellent job of creating for others.

His scoring is the biggest anchor weight on him right now, unquestionably. Hopefully, Detroit can add some pieces to ease the burden a bit, because he'd obviously look better with more off-ball action and less isolation.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#89 » by cupcakesnake » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:50 pm

tsherkin wrote:
brackdan70 wrote:Looks like he is 15th ranked East guard In LEBRON and 7th is RPM.
If you look at EPM Wins he climbs to 4th behind Brunson, White and Mitchell.
4.5 turnovers a game and a well below average TS% bring him down.
Box score stats look nice but there is more to the story.


As I said earlier, I don't think his turnovers are much cause for concern with his assist output. At almost 10 apg and better than 2:1 AST:TOV, he's not hurting too much with that. And all of Ben's passing/playmaking data suggests what watching him does as well, that he's doing an excellent job of creating for others.

His scoring is the biggest anchor weight on him right now, unquestionably. Hopefully, Detroit can add some pieces to ease the burden a bit, because he'd obviously look better with more off-ball action and less isolation.


I mostly agree with this but I think the turnovers are worse that you're characterising. By my eye, Cade can be very careless with the ball. These turnovers aren't simply a product of hyper aggressive playmaking. More James Harden than Steve Nash. His passing game is fairly pristine in the pick & roll, but sometimes when he's improvising he's goes a little brain dead and loses the ball in all kinds of strange ways.

I'm definitely of the school of thought that high-turnovers are fine from high assists guys, but only if those turnovers are coming from passing attempts. Plenty of Cade's turnovers come from forcing scoring attempts and doing dumb stuff. I find him very inconsistent. He looks genius for some stretches and clueless for others.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#90 » by JackTalkThai » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:54 pm

Points + Assists + Rebounds…

Which players on this list deserve to be All Stars and which do not?

https://ibb.co/p1KrKn1

Image
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#91 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:57 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:I mostly agree with this but I think the turnovers are worse that you're characterising. By my eye, Cade can be very careless with the ball. These turnovers aren't simply a product of hyper aggressive playmaking. More James Harden than Steve Nash. His passing game is fairly pristine in the pick & roll, but sometimes when he's improvising he's goes a little brain dead and loses the ball in all kinds of strange ways.


Yeah, I mean, he's not without capacity for improvement, right? But that's very different from "not being a problem," which is what I was saying. And I was also separating scoring turnovers from his playmaking, to be fair.

I'm definitely of the school of thought that high-turnovers are fine from high assists guys, but only if those turnovers are coming from passing attempts. Plenty of Cade's turnovers come from forcing scoring attempts and doing dumb stuff. I find him very inconsistent. He looks genius for some stretches and clueless for others.


Yeah, that's fine. His scoring isn't an area where he is excelling. This we know, it isn't subtle. He also lacks elite athleticism, which makes things harder. He can't just burn jets and/or jump over guys the way some players can, and he isn't an ATG shooter, though is much improved over the first quarter of the season at least. And his middle game is actually pretty nice.

I just think that his turnovers are offset by his playmaking to enough an extent that they shouldn't be a main focus of discussion. He needs to get to the rim more and finish better when he gets there. SOME of that is surely related to decision-making which generates some of those turnovers, of course, but in general, I think he has other areas on which to focus right now and we have more to babble on about than his turnovers.

Know what I mean?
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#92 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:58 pm

JackTalkThai wrote:Points + Assists + Rebounds…

Which players on this list deserve to be All Stars and which do not?

https://ibb.co/p1KrKn1

Image


Not a hot premise to begin with... You learn so little from those numbers.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#93 » by oldncreaky » Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:19 pm

tsherkin wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:I mostly agree with this but I think the turnovers are worse that you're characterising. By my eye, Cade can be very careless with the ball. These turnovers aren't simply a product of hyper aggressive playmaking. More James Harden than Steve Nash. His passing game is fairly pristine in the pick & roll, but sometimes when he's improvising he's goes a little brain dead and loses the ball in all kinds of strange ways.


Yeah, I mean, he's not without capacity for improvement, right? But that's very different from "not being a problem," which is what I was saying. And I was also separating scoring turnovers from his playmaking, to be fair.

I'm definitely of the school of thought that high-turnovers are fine from high assists guys, but only if those turnovers are coming from passing attempts. Plenty of Cade's turnovers come from forcing scoring attempts and doing dumb stuff. I find him very inconsistent. He looks genius for some stretches and clueless for others.


Yeah, that's fine. His scoring isn't an area where he is excelling. This we know, it isn't subtle. He also lacks elite athleticism, which makes things harder. He can't just burn jets and/or jump over guys the way some players can, and he isn't an ATG shooter, though is much improved over the first quarter of the season at least. And his middle game is actually pretty nice.

I just think that his turnovers are offset by his playmaking to enough an extent that they shouldn't be a main focus of discussion. He needs to get to the rim more and finish better when he gets there. SOME of that is surely related to decision-making which generates some of those turnovers, of course, but in general, I think he has other areas on which to focus right now and we have more to babble on about than his turnovers.

Know what I mean?


I'll add one observation, and an optimistic take. I think some of Cade's turnovers, which are the Achilles heel of his game, are due to a lack of strength; he can get bullied. Assuming he gains a bit of strength as he goes through his mid-to-late-twenties, and gets a bit wiser as he ages too, the turnovers should come down.

For the record: I think he's on the cusp of being an all-star, and might make it this year depending on how many injury reserves are selected.

(Aside: I always enjoy reading posts and back-and-forth between you two, and often learn a lot. Thanks.)
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#94 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:23 pm

oldncreaky wrote:
I'll add one observation, and an optimistic take. I think some of Cade's turnovers, which are the Achilles heel of his game, are due to a lack of strength; he can get bullied. Assuming he gains a bit of strength as he goes through his mid-to-late-twenties, and gets a bit wiser as he ages too, the turnovers should come down.


Quite possible, for sure. Strength helps in many ways.

For the record: I think he's on the cusp of being an all-star, and might make it this year depending on how many injury reserves are selected.


I'm inclined to believe that if he keeps playing as he has thus far, he isn't far away, yes. He's not like super distant from being that level of player, I just don't think he's quite there yet with the way guys are playing in the league right now. But as discussed earlier, there are some guys who are quite a bit more debatable than others so far, like Herro and Trae.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#95 » by cupcakesnake » Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:59 pm

oldncreaky wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:I mostly agree with this but I think the turnovers are worse that you're characterising. By my eye, Cade can be very careless with the ball. These turnovers aren't simply a product of hyper aggressive playmaking. More James Harden than Steve Nash. His passing game is fairly pristine in the pick & roll, but sometimes when he's improvising he's goes a little brain dead and loses the ball in all kinds of strange ways.


Yeah, I mean, he's not without capacity for improvement, right? But that's very different from "not being a problem," which is what I was saying. And I was also separating scoring turnovers from his playmaking, to be fair.

I'm definitely of the school of thought that high-turnovers are fine from high assists guys, but only if those turnovers are coming from passing attempts. Plenty of Cade's turnovers come from forcing scoring attempts and doing dumb stuff. I find him very inconsistent. He looks genius for some stretches and clueless for others.


Yeah, that's fine. His scoring isn't an area where he is excelling. This we know, it isn't subtle. He also lacks elite athleticism, which makes things harder. He can't just burn jets and/or jump over guys the way some players can, and he isn't an ATG shooter, though is much improved over the first quarter of the season at least. And his middle game is actually pretty nice.

I just think that his turnovers are offset by his playmaking to enough an extent that they shouldn't be a main focus of discussion. He needs to get to the rim more and finish better when he gets there. SOME of that is surely related to decision-making which generates some of those turnovers, of course, but in general, I think he has other areas on which to focus right now and we have more to babble on about than his turnovers.

Know what I mean?


I'll add one observation, and an optimistic take. I think some of Cade's turnovers, which are the Achilles heel of his game, are due to a lack of strength; he can get bullied. Assuming he gains a bit of strength as he goes through his mid-to-late-twenties, and gets a bit wiser as he ages too, the turnovers should come down.

For the record: I think he's on the cusp of being an all-star, and might make it this year depending on how many injury reserves are selected.

(Aside: I always enjoy reading posts and back-and-forth between you two, and often learn a lot. Thanks.)


I don't think we're far apart on our opinion of his turnovers, Tsherk. I felt his turnovers were worthy of a deeper dive, but I don't think they're the main crux of Cade right now.

I agree with Creaky's assessment of him lacking strength, but I'm maybe less optimistic? I think the vision of Cade has always involved some bully ball ability. The problem is that we've never actually seen it. Yes, he's likely to add strength over the next few years of his career, but will he ever be strong enough that it's a real advantage. Guys who play bull ball at the NBA level usually show that ability early. I'm not sure it's in the cards for Cade. However, him getting enough strength to be a little stronger on the ball feels like a realistic expectation.

We're still looking at a guy who is surviving through a megadose of on-ball reps, while doing a hell of a job making plays on a weak roster. He's in the 99th percentile in terms of load and box creation right now. He's delivering on some of the promise of his game: oversized guard who can really pass the ball and is a good shooter. He's showing some goods on defense (and some bads).

I can't help but imagine Cade in a secondary role (ala Jalen Williams, Garland, Kyrie), or at least playing with another star. On nights where Jaden Ivey is playing like a star, you can see it a little bit.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#96 » by tsherkin » Sun Dec 22, 2024 7:07 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:I don't think we're far apart on our opinion of his turnovers, Tsherk. I felt his turnovers were worthy of a deeper dive, but I don't think they're the main crux of Cade right now.


I agree.

I agree with Creaky's assessment of him lacking strength, but I'm maybe less optimistic? I think the vision of Cade has always involved some bully ball ability. The problem is that we've never actually seen it. Yes, he's likely to add strength over the next few years of his career, but will he ever be strong enough that it's a real advantage. Guys who play bull ball at the NBA level usually show that ability early. I'm not sure it's in the cards for Cade. However, him getting enough strength to be a little stronger on the ball feels like a realistic expectation.


I suspect it's a little bit more about being able to absorb contact that it is about bullying his way places, personally. Not getting stalled trying to turn the corner, maybe improving his ability to finish inside.

I can't help but imagine Cade in a secondary role (ala Jalen Williams, Garland, Kyrie), or at least playing with another star. On nights where Jaden Ivey is playing like a star, you can see it a little bit.


Envisioning him with a lighter scoring load while emphasizing his playmaking is where I see his best performance, yes.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#97 » by Han Solo » Sun Dec 22, 2024 11:23 pm

Echo chamber with one person pushing their narrative.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#98 » by Mr Peanut » Mon Dec 23, 2024 4:38 am

brackdan70 wrote:Looks like he is 15th ranked East guard In LEBRON and 7th is EPM
If you look at EPM Wins he climbs to 4th behind Brunson, White and Mitchell.
4.5 turnovers a game and a well below average TS% bring him down.
Box score stats look nice but there is more to the story.


These are honestly the worst types of post on this forum. Just admit you haven't watched him and don't wade into the debate with a few niche advanced stats that you think are going to trump all of the other data/eye test.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#99 » by brackdan70 » Mon Dec 23, 2024 4:43 am

Mr Peanut wrote:
brackdan70 wrote:Looks like he is 15th ranked East guard In LEBRON and 7th is EPM
If you look at EPM Wins he climbs to 4th behind Brunson, White and Mitchell.
4.5 turnovers a game and a well below average TS% bring him down.
Box score stats look nice but there is more to the story.


These are honestly the worst types of post on this forum. Just admit you haven't watched him and don't wade into the debate with a few niche advanced stats that you think are going to trump all of the other data/eye test.

Just some pertinent Data. Not really niche. They are the most respected impact metrics.
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Re: Cade Cunningham should be a all star 

Post#100 » by zimpy27 » Mon Dec 23, 2024 5:21 am

He's definitely convinced me that he's a player on the rise and I think on the borderline for deserving an all star appearance. Still I don't think that debate should distract from the great season he is having.

I think his season is akin to the DLo season with Brooklyn it was also his 4th in the league, he took was scoring under league average efficiency but he was an all star.
Very similar numbers to Cade across the board but Cade is a better rebounder and DLo took care of the ball better.
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