What's the deal with guards winning over half the DPOY's in the 80s?

[ScrantonBulls]

Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
Sidney Moncrief (1983-84)
Alvin Robertson (1985-86)
Michael Cooper (1986-87)
Michael Jordan (1987-88)

Guards won the first 5 out of 6 years when the award was created in 82-83. Since then, there have only been two guards that won (Gary Payton and Marcus Smart). What about the 80s led guards to win so frequently? Was it just a phase with the voters? Or did they truly impact the game more during the run-and-gun, high pace 80s?

[Doctor MJ]

Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
Sidney Moncrief (1983-84)
Alvin Robertson (1985-86)
Michael Cooper (1986-87)
Michael Jordan (1987-88)

Guards won the first 5 out of 6 years when the award was created in 82-83. Since then, there have only been two guards that won (Gary Payton and Marcus Smart). What about the 80s led guards to win so frequently? Was it just a phase with the voters? Or did they truly impact the game more during the run-and-gun, high pace 80s?

Pretty weird isn't it? I mean, it's not like people in the '80s didn't know that the best big men were more defensively impactful than perimeter players - that had been obvious since Bill Russell. So what was going on?

a) There was a serious dearth of quality defensive anchors when they happened to start giving the DPOY award in the early '80s. I've referred to this as the Walton-Eaton Gap. Basically from the moment Walton's injuries got the best of them until the moment Eaton emerged, I think it was actually reasonable to give DPOY award to non-bigs, not because the non-bigs could match an elite defensive big, but because the NBA just happened to be lacking those at that moment.

This then to say that I actually think Sidney Moncrief's win there was an entirely reasonable call - Eaton was more valuable per minute of course, but he didn't play big minutes until the next year.

b) I think the weakness of bigs when they began the DPOY got DPOY voters on the wrong track for a while where they seemed to be thinking in terms of "Guard A won DPOY, so shouldn't Guard B get one?" Robertson gets his on the back of insane steal numbers, Coop gets his with intense lobbying from the rest of the Lakers, Jordan gets his with intense lobbying from himself.

From my perspective, there's really no argument to be made that any of these guys were more valuable on defense than Eaton or Olajuwon once those guys got going, but for a while it seems like people weren't even really trying to make the comparison.

[tsherkin]

Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
Sidney Moncrief (1983-84)
Alvin Robertson (1985-86)
Michael Cooper (1986-87)
Michael Jordan (1987-88)

Guards won the first 5 out of 6 years when the award was created in 82-83. Since then, there have only been two guards that won (Gary Payton and Marcus Smart). What about the 80s led guards to win so frequently? Was it just a phase with the voters? Or did they truly impact the game more during the run-and-gun, high pace 80s?

Pretty weird isn't it? I mean, it's not like people in the '80s didn't know that the best big men were more defensively impactful than perimeter players - that had been obvious since Bill Russell. So what was going on?

a) There was a serious dearth of quality defensive anchors when they happened to start giving the DPOY award in the early '80s. I've referred to this as the Walton-Eaton Gap. Basically from the moment Walton's injuries got the best of them until the moment Eaton emerged, I think it was actually reasonable to give DPOY award to non-bigs, not because the non-bigs could match an elite defensive big, but because the NBA just happened to be lacking those at that moment.

This then to say that I actually think Sidney Moncrief's win there was an entirely reasonable call - Eaton was more valuable per minute of course, but he didn't play big minutes until the next year.

b) I think the weakness of bigs when they began the DPOY got DPOY voters on the wrong track for a while where they seemed to be thinking in terms of "Guard A won DPOY, so shouldn't Guard B get one?" Robertson gets his on the back of insane steal numbers, Coop gets his with intense lobbying from the rest of the Lakers, Jordan gets his with intense lobbying from himself.

From my perspective, there's really no argument to be made that any of these guys were more valuable on defense than Eaton or Olajuwon once those guys got going, but for a while it seems like people weren't even really trying to make the comparison.

Jordan didn't deserve his, and certainly by that point you had Ewing and Olajuwon, AND Eaton, all doing their thing. But rep is a powerful thing, and people love a filled box score, for sure.

Robertson's 3.7 spg is the single-season record, so I can see why voters in that early era were drawn to him. Coop's DPOY shouldn't have gone to him in 87, but yeah, he had vocal support.

[mademan]

Pre advanced impact stats era. They couldnt quantify how little impact perimeter defenders had compared to elite defensive bigs

[Doctor MJ]

Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
Sidney Moncrief (1983-84)
Alvin Robertson (1985-86)
Michael Cooper (1986-87)
Michael Jordan (1987-88)

Guards won the first 5 out of 6 years when the award was created in 82-83. Since then, there have only been two guards that won (Gary Payton and Marcus Smart). What about the 80s led guards to win so frequently? Was it just a phase with the voters? Or did they truly impact the game more during the run-and-gun, high pace 80s?

Pretty weird isn't it? I mean, it's not like people in the '80s didn't know that the best big men were more defensively impactful than perimeter players - that had been obvious since Bill Russell. So what was going on?

a) There was a serious dearth of quality defensive anchors when they happened to start giving the DPOY award in the early '80s. I've referred to this as the Walton-Eaton Gap. Basically from the moment Walton's injuries got the best of them until the moment Eaton emerged, I think it was actually reasonable to give DPOY award to non-bigs, not because the non-bigs could match an elite defensive big, but because the NBA just happened to be lacking those at that moment.

This then to say that I actually think Sidney Moncrief's win there was an entirely reasonable call - Eaton was more valuable per minute of course, but he didn't play big minutes until the next year.

b) I think the weakness of bigs when they began the DPOY got DPOY voters on the wrong track for a while where they seemed to be thinking in terms of "Guard A won DPOY, so shouldn't Guard B get one?" Robertson gets his on the back of insane steal numbers, Coop gets his with intense lobbying from the rest of the Lakers, Jordan gets his with intense lobbying from himself.

From my perspective, there's really no argument to be made that any of these guys were more valuable on defense than Eaton or Olajuwon once those guys got going, but for a while it seems like people weren't even really trying to make the comparison.

Jordan didn't deserve his, and certainly by that point you had Ewing and Olajuwon, AND Eaton, all doing their thing. But rep is a powerful thing, and people love a filled box score, for sure.

Robertson's 3.7 spg is the single-season record, so I can see why voters in that early era were drawn to him. Coop's DPOY shouldn't have gone to him in 87, but yeah, he had vocal support.

Yup to all this stuff but I'll say:

The thing about steals is that the guys who go for them tend to be less focused on defense than offense. Steals are as valuable as they are on average because they tend to lead to high quality offensive possessions. They are playing defense when they go for the steal, but often they have their eyes on the undefended opponent basket they'll have a clear path to if they get the ball.

As such, I actually think Robertson's true defensive value was rather comically weak even compared to these other perimeter guys, and the fact that the Spur defense was a) bad in the year Robertson won DPOY and b) not really an improvement over the prior year and Robinson was a bench guy, really shows us how over-simplietic the thinking of the voters was at the time.

[tsherkin]

Yup to all this stuff but I'll say:

The thing about steals is that the guys who go for them tend to be less focused on defense than offense. Steals are as valuable as they are on average because they tend to lead to high quality offensive possessions. They are playing defense when they go for the steal, but often they have their eyes on the undefended opponent basket they'll have a clear path to if they get the ball.

As such, I actually think Robertson's true defensive value was rather comically weak even compared to these other perimeter guys, and the fact that the Spur defense was a) bad in the year Robertson won DPOY and b) not really an improvement over the prior year and Robinson was a bench guy, really shows us how over-simplietic the thinking of the voters was at the time.

Oh, I agree with all of that. I wasn't advocating for his DPOY, but was rather noting the appeal to the 1980s voter of Robertson's sexy SPG average. I think he was very far from a DPOY, and I think steals have significant variance in their value.

[Hellcrooner]

Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
Sidney Moncrief (1983-84)
Alvin Robertson (1985-86)
Michael Cooper (1986-87)
Michael Jordan (1987-88)

Guards won the first 5 out of 6 years when the award was created in 82-83. Since then, there have only been two guards that won (Gary Payton and Marcus Smart). What about the 80s led guards to win so frequently? Was it just a phase with the voters? Or did they truly impact the game more during the run-and-gun, high pace 80s?

Pretty weird isn't it? I mean, it's not like people in the '80s didn't know that the best big men were more defensively impactful than perimeter players - that had been obvious since Bill Russell. So what was going on?

a) There was a serious dearth of quality defensive anchors when they happened to start giving the DPOY award in the early '80s. I've referred to this as the Walton-Eaton Gap. Basically from the moment Walton's injuries got the best of them until the moment Eaton emerged, I think it was actually reasonable to give DPOY award to non-bigs, not because the non-bigs could match an elite defensive big, but because the NBA just happened to be lacking those at that moment.

This then to say that I actually think Sidney Moncrief's win there was an entirely reasonable call - Eaton was more valuable per minute of course, but he didn't play big minutes until the next year.

b) I think the weakness of bigs when they began the DPOY got DPOY voters on the wrong track for a while where they seemed to be thinking in terms of "Guard A won DPOY, so shouldn't Guard B get one?" Robertson gets his on the back of insane steal numbers, Coop gets his with intense lobbying from the rest of the Lakers, Jordan gets his with intense lobbying from himself.

From my perspective, there's really no argument to be made that any of these guys were more valuable on defense than Eaton or Olajuwon once those guys got going, but for a while it seems like people weren't even really trying to make the comparison.

mmm

Parish?
Mo Malone?
Tree rollins?
Sikma?
Caldwell Jones?
MChale?
Dan Roundfield?
Bobby Jones?


all those were Great at D big men ( pf and c)

[Doctor MJ]

Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
Sidney Moncrief (1983-84)
Alvin Robertson (1985-86)
Michael Cooper (1986-87)
Michael Jordan (1987-88)

Guards won the first 5 out of 6 years when the award was created in 82-83. Since then, there have only been two guards that won (Gary Payton and Marcus Smart). What about the 80s led guards to win so frequently? Was it just a phase with the voters? Or did they truly impact the game more during the run-and-gun, high pace 80s?

Pretty weird isn't it? I mean, it's not like people in the '80s didn't know that the best big men were more defensively impactful than perimeter players - that had been obvious since Bill Russell. So what was going on?

a) There was a serious dearth of quality defensive anchors when they happened to start giving the DPOY award in the early '80s. I've referred to this as the Walton-Eaton Gap. Basically from the moment Walton's injuries got the best of them until the moment Eaton emerged, I think it was actually reasonable to give DPOY award to non-bigs, not because the non-bigs could match an elite defensive big, but because the NBA just happened to be lacking those at that moment.

This then to say that I actually think Sidney Moncrief's win there was an entirely reasonable call - Eaton was more valuable per minute of course, but he didn't play big minutes until the next year.

b) I think the weakness of bigs when they began the DPOY got DPOY voters on the wrong track for a while where they seemed to be thinking in terms of "Guard A won DPOY, so shouldn't Guard B get one?" Robertson gets his on the back of insane steal numbers, Coop gets his with intense lobbying from the rest of the Lakers, Jordan gets his with intense lobbying from himself.

From my perspective, there's really no argument to be made that any of these guys were more valuable on defense than Eaton or Olajuwon once those guys got going, but for a while it seems like people weren't even really trying to make the comparison.

mmm

Parish?
Mo Malone?
Tree rollins?
Sikma?
Caldwell Jones?
MChale?
Dan Roundfield?
Bobby Jones?


all those were Great at D big men ( pf and c)

Reasonable to have the discussion about these guys.

First, Parish never even made All-D 2nd team. If we were looking at the bigs on the '82-83 & '83-84 All-D teams it would be:

'82-83: (Bobby) Jones, Malone, Roundfield, McHale, Rollins
'83-84: (Boddy) Jones, Rollins, Kareem, Roundfield

Feel free to make the specific case for Parish, but I'd say it would involve significant focus on why teammates McHale, Larry Bird & Dennis Johnson got singled out for All-D when Parish didn't.

On Bobby Jones:

By this point in time Jones was a bench guy playing very limited minutes to the point there's good reason to be skeptical he should have made All-D. That said, I would consider Jones to be a more valuable defender per minute than Moncrief and am in general not at all a Jones skeptic. He's never my choice for DPOY, but he was a DPOY-worthy guy at his best, and a DPOY-per-minute level guy as a rule.

On Malone: In general, I don't see Malone as a defensive anchor like what we expect from DPOY level guys. Like, '82-83 is maybe his best case for being DPOY, and he's still only getting 2 BPG in an era where great shot-blockers could get 4+. That said, I don't think Malone would have been an unreasonable choice in '82-83.

On Roundfield: I think he's pretty clearly 2nd fiddle to Rollins.

On McHale: He's a 6th man in these early years.

On Kareem: DPOY guy in his prime, but I don't think he was that at this point in his career. He still had strengths, but increasingly had weaknesses to explot.

On Tree Rollins: Definitely a reasonable guy to consider particularly for these years and clearly he almost won in '82-83 when he led the league in BPG. Had voters been thinking that the big shot-blocker is always the DPOY he'd have won it that year. I think the fact that the Hawks were a middling team is what held him back.

Further, I think the fact that in general we were seeing teams without huge shot blockers leading top defensive teams helped non-defensive anchors get embraced.

Last note: I want to give Buck Williams a shout out as the guy I see as the most valuable defensive player on the #1 DRtg team in '82-83. I think he's someone who deserved more consideration than he got.

This then to say I'm not looking to die on the "Moncrief was the only reasonable choice for DPOY!" hill, but I don't think him winning DPOY was unreasonable in those years the way Robertson/Cooper/Jordan was when they were going up against Eaton/Olajuwon.

[Bloodbather]

Perimeter defenders were always overrated before the advent of advanced stats. Many thought they were comparable to interior defenders, so when there was no standout interior defender in a season a perimeter defender who stood out had a chance. In reality, perimeter defenders are pretty much never as impactful as interior defenders, they only can be if they are versatile and have some interior defense impact also. This was even more so the case back then compared to now, because the game was far less perimeter oriented. The less advanced stats conscious casual fans still overrate perimeter defenders. Voters are more advanced stats conscious nowadays.

There is also the influence of high SPG and BPG, especially in the pre-advanced stats era. SPG was clearly very overrated as a metric for defense back then. BPG was, too, but BPG usually has a better correlation to impact than SPG does - SPG usually says very little.

DPOY and All-Defensive Teams are historically the worst NBA awards in terms of having cases where they were awarded to the wrong people. Many snubs, many undeserved nods.

[Capn'O]

Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
Sidney Moncrief (1983-84)
Alvin Robertson (1985-86)
Michael Cooper (1986-87)
Michael Jordan (1987-88)

Guards won the first 5 out of 6 years when the award was created in 82-83. Since then, there have only been two guards that won (Gary Payton and Marcus Smart). What about the 80s led guards to win so frequently? Was it just a phase with the voters? Or did they truly impact the game more during the run-and-gun, high pace 80s?

Pretty weird isn't it? I mean, it's not like people in the '80s didn't know that the best big men were more defensively impactful than perimeter players - that had been obvious since Bill Russell. So what was going on?

a) There was a serious dearth of quality defensive anchors when they happened to start giving the DPOY award in the early '80s. I've referred to this as the Walton-Eaton Gap. Basically from the moment Walton's injuries got the best of them until the moment Eaton emerged, I think it was actually reasonable to give DPOY award to non-bigs, not because the non-bigs could match an elite defensive big, but because the NBA just happened to be lacking those at that moment.

This then to say that I actually think Sidney Moncrief's win there was an entirely reasonable call - Eaton was more valuable per minute of course, but he didn't play big minutes until the next year.

b) I think the weakness of bigs when they began the DPOY got DPOY voters on the wrong track for a while where they seemed to be thinking in terms of "Guard A won DPOY, so shouldn't Guard B get one?" Robertson gets his on the back of insane steal numbers, Coop gets his with intense lobbying from the rest of the Lakers, Jordan gets his with intense lobbying from himself.

From my perspective, there's really no argument to be made that any of these guys were more valuable on defense than Eaton or Olajuwon once those guys got going, but for a while it seems like people weren't even really trying to make the comparison.

The Walton-Eaton Gap sounds like an important Civil War battle.

It's weird to think since there were so many great defensive bigs by the time I started watching but you're right. I guess there was Tree Rollins and to a lesser extent Sampson but none of the guys I watched in the 90s were established and Kareem was slowing down.

[bledredwine]

I can’t take posts seriously that try to downplay 88’ Jordan’s defense. And to anyone who doesn’t believe Jordan wasn’t highly impactful on both sides of the court that year, it’s time to rewatch because he changed the trajectory of games with defense alone at times, and made many players including bigs look foolish that year. He was DPOY Kawhi if Kawhi was quicker, leaped quicker and had quicker hands; quick to pick off passes, locking guys down (just lookup his matchups and what they put up and you’ll find yourself enlightened), had 200 steals 100 blocks.

4 years new to the league and winning from reputation? Yeah, that makes no sense.

88’ Jordan is in the argument for best defensive season from a perimeter player, easy.

If anything, many posters here just know MJ by reputation instead of accurately remembering his game.

Watch on YouTube

As for the amazing perimeter defenders of the time, that’s because defense was prioritized among players drafted over threes, so you had way more defensively talented perimeter players in the 70s and 80s than now. It’s a matter of what you prioritize when you draft. Back then, a defensively strong perimeter player was much more important than a three point specialist who couldn’t play d. They also played a lot of man to man defense where this could be displayed.

How shocking that it’s the same crew of Lebron fans creating this thread and agreeing with each other. It’s over man. Just let it go.

[Johnny Bball]

Sidney Moncrief (1982-83)
Sidney Moncrief (1983-84)
Alvin Robertson (1985-86)
Michael Cooper (1986-87)
Michael Jordan (1987-88)

Guards won the first 5 out of 6 years when the award was created in 82-83. Since then, there have only been two guards that won (Gary Payton and Marcus Smart). What about the 80s led guards to win so frequently? Was it just a phase with the voters? Or did they truly impact the game more during the run-and-gun, high pace 80s?

Only man to man defense allowed.

[falcolombardi]

I can’t take posts seriously that try to downplay 88’ Jordan’s defense. And to anyone who doesn’t believe Jordan wasn’t highly impactful on both sides of the court that year, it’s time to rewatch because he changed the trajectory of games with defense alone at times, and made many players including bigs look foolish that year. He was DPOY Kawhi if Kawhi was quicker, leaped quicker and had quicker hands; quick to pick off passes, locking guys down (just lookup his matchups and what they put up and you’ll find yourself enlightened), had 200 steals 100 blocks.

4 years new to the league and winning from reputation? Yeah, that makes no sense.

88’ Jordan is in the argument for best defensive season from a perimeter player, easy.

If anything, many posters here just know MJ by reputation instead recalling his game.

Watch on YouTube

As for the amazing perimeter defenders of the time, that’s because defense was prioritized among players drafted over threes, so you had way more defensively talented perimeter players in the 70s and 80s than now. It’s a matter of what you prioritize when you draft. Back then, a defensively strong perimeter player was much more important than a three point specialist who couldn’t play d. They also played a lot of man to man defense where this could be displayed.

How shocking that it’s the same crew of Lebron fans creating this thread and agreeing with each other. It’s over man. Just let it go.

88 jordan didnt deserve dpoy, let it go

[tsherkin]

I can’t take posts seriously that try to downplay 88’ Jordan’s defense.

It's obvious he was a good defender. The contest, though, is that he couldn't exert as much pressure as Olajuwon or Ewing or Eaton individually. Jordan's main claim as an individual defender was turnover generation, but Chicago's defense was predicated considerably more on defensive rebounding than on that. They were below average at generating turnovers in 88 but the BEST defensive rebounding team in the league, and that was more Oakley than Jordan. And Choke was also a very good defender. They were also enjoying rookie seasons from Ho Grant and Scottie that year, albeit in limited minutes.

As for the amazing perimeter defenders of the time, that’s because defense was prioritized among players drafted over threes, so you had way more defensively talented perimeter players in the 70s and 80s than now. It’s a matter of what you prioritize when you draft. Back then, a defensively strong perimeter player was much more important than a three point specialist who couldn’t play d. They also played a lot of man to man defense where this could be displayed.

This is as much nostalgia as true.

Defense was very, very different in the 80s compared to now. Considerably less complex schemes, for one. Considerably simpler in the paint by virtue of the things you just couldn't do. Less overall mobility required. Teams crashed the O-boards a lot, so there was even MORE transition action than in today's game. And you could generally rest until guys got inside the arc, which is far from true today.

Crapping on today's guys without contextual acknowledgement of the differences in the game is poor form.

[Lalouie]

BECAUSE MONCRIEF WAS GREAT!!!!

maybe all the offensive talent were in the sf's and sg's

[kcktiny]

I think the weakness of bigs when they began the DPOY got DPOY voters on the wrong track for a while where they seemed to be thinking in terms of "Guard A won DPOY, so shouldn't Guard B get one?" Robertson gets his on the back of insane steal number

I actually think Robertson's true defensive value was rather comically weak even compared to these other perimeter guys

I agree with all of that. I wasn't advocating for his DPOY, but was rather noting the appeal to the 1980s voter of Robertson's sexy SPG average. I think he was very far from a DPOY

Perimeter defenders were always overrated before the advent of advanced stats... perimeter defenders are pretty much never as impactful as interior defenders... the less advanced stats conscious casual fans still overrate perimeter defenders...

There is also the influence of high SPG and BPG, especially in the pre-advanced stats era

Robertson's true defensive value was rather comically weak??

My God what a collective crew of clueless people. This collective has NO clue what they are talking about - have no idea who Alvin Robertson was, likely never even saw him ever play a complete game as a Spur, and most likely were not alive or were just a toddler when he did in fact play.

Robertson is considered one of the greatest perimeter defenders in league history - try actually watching him play, like those of us that saw him in the 80s/90s. He was great at forcing turnovers, he was great at denying his man the ball, and he was great at stopping his mans' shots from going in.

The idea that he was DPOY and also NBA all-defensive team 6 straight seasons simply because of his high steal rate clearly shows you all did not watch him play during his heyday, nor have you taken the time to watch him play full games via available video (like YouTube).

Try reading the "Talent vs. specialty, beat this talent defensive team defensively" thread before claiming your "advanced stats" - let me guess, RAPM or some other plus/minus variation concocted by people that also never saw these players play - represents real life.

DPOY and All-Defensive Teams are historically the worst NBA awards in terms of having cases where they were awarded to the wrong people. Many snubs, many undeserved nods.

Wow, sooo many.

So all those coaches, sportswriters, and broadcasters that watched the NBA on a regular basis for their jobs and that voted for these awards know less as to who was deserving that you do?

Fine. How about you start explaining who in your opinion did not deserve to be named DPOY or to the all-defensive teams and why, and then who did deserve to, so we can discuss.

This should be interesting.

I can’t take posts seriously that try to downplay 88’ Jordan’s defense. And to anyone who doesn’t believe Jordan wasn’t highly impactful on both sides of the court that year, it’s time to rewatch because he changed the trajectory of games with defense alone at times... 88’ Jordan is in the argument for best defensive season from a perimeter player, easy...

That year? Try every year as a Bull. This statement is absolutely spot-on. And rewatch is the wrong word here, try just watch, because I highly doubt that anyone who actually watched Jordan all that season would say he wasn't deserving of that defensive award.

It's obvious he was a good defender.

Good? Jordan was a great defender, pretty much throughout his entire Bulls career.

Jordan's main claim as an individual defender was turnover generation

Chicago's defense was predicated considerably more on defensive rebounding than on that

Did you know that in the 6 seasons the Bulls won titles, 90-91 to 92-93 and 95-06 to 97-98, it was Jordan that lead the Bulls in most steals and most defensive rebounds?

I actually think Robertson's true defensive value was rather comically weak

You by chance play against him? B.J. Armstrong played against him for 4 seasons.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3uMsFBvdyI0

[trickshot]

-less long shooting so backcourts were technically part of interior defense. You got to build a wall and the guards were the first line of defense. People underrate how much modern shooting got us where we are now, for good or bad.
-pre-advanced stats era to measure defensive impact in volume stats. Steals was still a gold standard metric for defense. As early as 06 steals+blocks was as good as an advanced metric.
- More flashy. Combine with number one and it was less punishing to aggressively gamble on defense.

[Doctor MJ]

I can’t take posts seriously that try to downplay 88’ Jordan’s defense. And to anyone who doesn’t believe Jordan wasn’t highly impactful on both sides of the court that year, it’s time to rewatch because he changed the trajectory of games with defense alone at times, and made many players including bigs look foolish that year. He was DPOY Kawhi if Kawhi was quicker, leaped quicker and had quicker hands; quick to pick off passes, locking guys down (just lookup his matchups and what they put up and you’ll find yourself enlightened), had 200 steals 100 blocks.

4 years new to the league and winning from reputation? Yeah, that makes no sense.

88’ Jordan is in the argument for best defensive season from a perimeter player, easy.

If anything, many posters here just know MJ by reputation instead recalling his game.

Watch on YouTube

As for the amazing perimeter defenders of the time, that’s because defense was prioritized among players drafted over threes, so you had way more defensively talented perimeter players in the 70s and 80s than now. It’s a matter of what you prioritize when you draft. Back then, a defensively strong perimeter player was much more important than a three point specialist who couldn’t play d. They also played a lot of man to man defense where this could be displayed.

How shocking that it’s the same crew of Lebron fans creating this thread and agreeing with each other. It’s over man. Just let it go.

I highlighted two parts.

For the first: If you can provide significant data showing how Jordan was locking down guys on the regular, that could be a fantastic argument.

My assessment of Jordan in this time period is of a guy more focus on stocks than on man defense, and in fact I'd say this is how I see pretty much any perimeter player who racks up stocks. Doesn't mean he's not insanely valuable on defense, but it does mean he's gambling away from his man.

This was something that stuck in my craw about the way Jordan went after Coop in the press during the season in question. Jordan would talk about being a better defender than Coop because Coop didn't get steals & blocks, but of course it wasn't Coop's job to gamble. It was his job to be the lock down defender so that Magic could gamble and kickstart the fast break.

This then to say that if we have data on Jordan getting tons of stocks AND specifically locking down a specific man he was tasked with locking down, that's very impressive indeed, but in general, those stocks come at the expense of lock down man defense because they are coming by playing the passing lanes or blocking the shots of guys he isn't guarding.

Of course any time there's a successful steal or block that's great, but sometimes you go for it, miss, and you give the defense an easy bucket. That's not in the business Coop was in.

Re: winning form reputation after 4 years not realistic. ftr, what I said is that he got the award by lobbying HARD for it in the press. I'm not making a vague statement about how people idealized Jordan, I'm literally saying that this was a case where someone was actively campaigning for a specific award.

And yeah, maybe a bit selfish to be lobbying like that for an aware at all, let alone relatively early in your career, but that's what Mike was Like.

[Warspite]

BECAUSE MONCRIEF WAS GREAT!!!!

maybe all the offensive talent were in the sf's and sg's

Bingo:

The NBA has 24 teams with +20 wings who are 20ppg or more. Seems like most teams had that Tree Rollins type who was good for 2bpg so maybe the variation from elite shot blockers to the median wasn't that impressive to the voters? Of course, having a guy that can lock down DrJ, Bird, English, Gervin, MJ, Aguirre, King, Nique, Worthy, Marques Johnson, Dantley, Mullin for just a few possessions to help close the game is much more valuable than having a defensive big who can guard a big who is a 3rd or 4th option.

[giberish]

Even with advanced stats, while top bigs are going to have higher absolute defensive ratings than top guards the difference between a top big and an average big may not be any larger than the difference between a top guard and an average guard. With that position normalization in mind a top guard could be seen as just as valuable on defense as a top big.

Especially in the first two years with Moncrief being so elite combined with the top bigs being more good than great on D (and the defensive specialists playing less minutes) going for a guard first made sense.

Then with the precedence that DPOY defaults to big men having other guys get the award in part due to fame (one way or another) was more possible.