Game 28: Bucks @ Cavs 12/20/2024

[toooskies]

Are you being intentionally lazy these days?

The lineup data is on BBR, and the Strus+4 lineup is our top lineup with 367 minutes.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024/lineups/

Look at the data, draw your own conclusions.

At 36 mpg that equates to a 10 game sample size - over the course of an 82 game season. The fact that it's the biggest sample size we have suggests nothing other than the the Cavs were truly injury riddled last season.

This isn't about pretending we can make an accurate future prediction based on data, we're talking about what happened on the floor last season and the lineup data is a snapshot of exactly what happened.

You watched the games - feel free to draw you own conclusions for why those lineups with Strus didn't perform as well as the lineups with LeVert or Okoro the season before and why Strus was so much more effective in other lineups.

Personally, I don't find it hard to come up with plausible explanations.

The good news is Max should improve quite a bit this season under Kenny who understands what to do with a movement shooter, manages spacing so much better, and doesn't wear out his players.

Whether that makes him a better option in the starting lineup, though, is tbd.

All the lineup data from last year is biased by injuries and fluctuating schedule difficulty. We never saw the real DG last year, and Mitchell played a lot in games he shouldn’t have after the All-Star break, too.

[JujitsuFlip]

We don't really run a spread offense that relies on gravity. That's the little bit of magic that Kenny has sprinkled on the team, they create enough chaos for the defense that someone ends up open.

We'll see when we have to face some of the better teams, but at the moment almost everything is working.

I mean, Kenny actually utilizes the corner the right way and puts the ball in Mobley's hands to remove the twin towers clogging the lane.

Wade and Strus are better options. Especially Wade with his size.

Wade needs to play 10-15 minutes a night to reduce his risk of injury before the playoffs, and those minutes need to all be at the 4/5. He’s too important there.

I feel like the 5th starter is the spot in the rotation that needs Strus’s all-around game the least and benefits from point-of-attack defense the most, so I’d start Okoro. But I don’t feel that there’s a right or wrong answer.

Kenny likes to close halves/games with LeVert even when Okoro starts, so if Max does get the starting job back I wonder if that’ll continue.

If the Cavs get fully healthy, maybe Wade can play that few minutes the rest of the way but I highly doubt it.

If the POA defender was bigger, I may agree with ya but as I've been saying for the 3+ years I've been on the forum, the archetype Okoro can lockdown is VERY limited. I'd rather have the volume shooting threat and in Wade's case, size.

[toooskies]

I mean, Kenny actually utilizes the corner the right way and puts the ball in Mobley's hands to remove the twin towers clogging the lane.

Wade and Strus are better options. Especially Wade with his size.

Wade needs to play 10-15 minutes a night to reduce his risk of injury before the playoffs, and those minutes need to all be at the 4/5. He’s too important there.

I feel like the 5th starter is the spot in the rotation that needs Strus’s all-around game the least and benefits from point-of-attack defense the most, so I’d start Okoro. But I don’t feel that there’s a right or wrong answer.

Kenny likes to close halves/games with LeVert even when Okoro starts, so if Max does get the starting job back I wonder if that’ll continue.

If the Cavs get fully healthy, maybe Wade can play that few minutes the rest of the way but I highly doubt it.

If the POA defender was bigger, I may agree with ya but as I've been saying for the 3+ years I've been on the forum, the archetype Okoro can lockdown is VERY limited. I'd rather have the volume shooting threat and in Wade's case, size.

It’s not about locking guys down. Very few guys in the league can lock a starting-quality player down. But Isaac does a better job slowing down ball handlers and making them work, can guard primary ball handlers of nearly any size, and has a shiny 65% true shooting on the year, too. Four straight years of positive plus/minus and on/off.

[jbk1234]

Wade needs to play 10-15 minutes a night to reduce his risk of injury before the playoffs, and those minutes need to all be at the 4/5. He’s too important there.

I feel like the 5th starter is the spot in the rotation that needs Strus’s all-around game the least and benefits from point-of-attack defense the most, so I’d start Okoro. But I don’t feel that there’s a right or wrong answer.

Kenny likes to close halves/games with LeVert even when Okoro starts, so if Max does get the starting job back I wonder if that’ll continue.

If the Cavs get fully healthy, maybe Wade can play that few minutes the rest of the way but I highly doubt it.

If the POA defender was bigger, I may agree with ya but as I've been saying for the 3+ years I've been on the forum, the archetype Okoro can lockdown is VERY limited. I'd rather have the volume shooting threat and in Wade's case, size.

It’s not about locking guys down. Very few guys in the league can lock a starting-quality player down. But Isaac does a better job slowing down ball handlers and making them work, can guard primary ball handlers of nearly any size, and has a shiny 65% true shooting on the year, too. Four straight years of positive plus/minus and on/off.

Just about anyone you put out there with the other 4 guys is going to have good +/- and on/off numbers, but we've run into problems with Okoro as the 5th starter against good defensive teams.

[JujitsuFlip]

Wade needs to play 10-15 minutes a night to reduce his risk of injury before the playoffs, and those minutes need to all be at the 4/5. He’s too important there.

I feel like the 5th starter is the spot in the rotation that needs Strus’s all-around game the least and benefits from point-of-attack defense the most, so I’d start Okoro. But I don’t feel that there’s a right or wrong answer.

Kenny likes to close halves/games with LeVert even when Okoro starts, so if Max does get the starting job back I wonder if that’ll continue.

If the Cavs get fully healthy, maybe Wade can play that few minutes the rest of the way but I highly doubt it.

If the POA defender was bigger, I may agree with ya but as I've been saying for the 3+ years I've been on the forum, the archetype Okoro can lockdown is VERY limited. I'd rather have the volume shooting threat and in Wade's case, size.

It’s not about locking guys down. Very few guys in the league can lock a starting-quality player down. But Isaac does a better job slowing down ball handlers and making them work, can guard primary ball handlers of nearly any size, and has a shiny 65% true shooting on the year, too. Four straight years of positive plus/minus and on/off.

I do not agree with the bold. Too big, Okoro is useless. Too quick, Okoro is useless. The archetype he's useful against is limited, always has been.

[JonFromVA]

At 36 mpg that equates to a 10 game sample size - over the course of an 82 game season. The fact that it's the biggest sample size we have suggests nothing other than the the Cavs were truly injury riddled last season.

This isn't about pretending we can make an accurate future prediction based on data, we're talking about what happened on the floor last season and the lineup data is a snapshot of exactly what happened.

You watched the games - feel free to draw you own conclusions for why those lineups with Strus didn't perform as well as the lineups with LeVert or Okoro the season before and why Strus was so much more effective in other lineups.

Personally, I don't find it hard to come up with plausible explanations.

The good news is Max should improve quite a bit this season under Kenny who understands what to do with a movement shooter, manages spacing so much better, and doesn't wear out his players.

Whether that makes him a better option in the starting lineup, though, is tbd.

All the lineup data from last year is biased by injuries and fluctuating schedule difficulty. We never saw the real DG last year, and Mitchell played a lot in games he shouldn’t have after the All-Star break, too.

Max was far far better in other lineups, it's about optimizing his role and minutes.

[toooskies]

If the Cavs get fully healthy, maybe Wade can play that few minutes the rest of the way but I highly doubt it.

If the POA defender was bigger, I may agree with ya but as I've been saying for the 3+ years I've been on the forum, the archetype Okoro can lockdown is VERY limited. I'd rather have the volume shooting threat and in Wade's case, size.

It’s not about locking guys down. Very few guys in the league can lock a starting-quality player down. But Isaac does a better job slowing down ball handlers and making them work, can guard primary ball handlers of nearly any size, and has a shiny 65% true shooting on the year, too. Four straight years of positive plus/minus and on/off.

I do not agree with the bold. Too big, Okoro is useless. Too quick, Okoro is useless. The archetype he's useful against is limited, always has been.

Define “too big” and “too quick” (or give examples) and explain what the other options are on the roster that can do better than him. Who plays the 3 that is too big? Who is too quick for him that isn’t too quick for Garland, Mitchell, and Strus?

Let’s be clear— I don’t love him guarding actual 4s like Tatum or Banchero but daring them to shoot long 2s over him should be a viable defensive strategy. Some PGs are too quick for him to stay in front of but they’ll roast everyone on the roster. I don’t expect lockdown defense. I do expect Okoro to make them work and get tired in order to beat him, which most players can’t keep up for a full game or full series.

And now that the offense does more than just leave him in the corner, he’s not a liability there. He’s just low-usage.

[JujitsuFlip]

It’s not about locking guys down. Very few guys in the league can lock a starting-quality player down. But Isaac does a better job slowing down ball handlers and making them work, can guard primary ball handlers of nearly any size, and has a shiny 65% true shooting on the year, too. Four straight years of positive plus/minus and on/off.

I do not agree with the bold. Too big, Okoro is useless. Too quick, Okoro is useless. The archetype he's useful against is limited, always has been.

Define “too big” and “too quick” (or give examples) and explain what the other options are on the roster that can do better than him. Who plays the 3 that is too big? Who is too quick for him that isn’t too quick for Garland, Mitchell, and Strus?

Let’s be clear— I don’t love him guarding actual 4s like Tatum or Banchero but daring them to shoot long 2s over him should be a viable defensive strategy. Some PGs are too quick for him to stay in front of but they’ll roast everyone on the roster. I don’t expect lockdown defense. I do expect Okoro to make them work and get tired in order to beat him, which most players can’t keep up for a full game or full series.

And now that the offense does more than just leave him in the corner, he’s not a liability there. He’s just low-usage.

You named 2 of the too big guys that come to mind, I'd rather try Wade in those lineups if he's on them or not. Because then Mobley can take them and Wade can volume shoot or use his size elsewhere on defense.

For the guards too quick that roast everyone, again, give me a volume shooter instead in those lineups then.

There are not a lot of times where i want Okoro playing many minutes in an actual import game, if the archetype he excels against doesn't exist on the opposition.

[toooskies]

I do not agree with the bold. Too big, Okoro is useless. Too quick, Okoro is useless. The archetype he's useful against is limited, always has been.

Define “too big” and “too quick” (or give examples) and explain what the other options are on the roster that can do better than him. Who plays the 3 that is too big? Who is too quick for him that isn’t too quick for Garland, Mitchell, and Strus?

Let’s be clear— I don’t love him guarding actual 4s like Tatum or Banchero but daring them to shoot long 2s over him should be a viable defensive strategy. Some PGs are too quick for him to stay in front of but they’ll roast everyone on the roster. I don’t expect lockdown defense. I do expect Okoro to make them work and get tired in order to beat him, which most players can’t keep up for a full game or full series.

And now that the offense does more than just leave him in the corner, he’s not a liability there. He’s just low-usage.

You named 2 of the too big guys that come to mind, I'd rather try Wade in those lineups if he's on them or not. Because then Mobley can take them and Wade can volume shoot or use his size elsewhere on defense.

For the guards too quick that roast everyone, again, give me a volume shooter instead in those lineups then.

There are not a lot of times where i want Okoro playing many minutes in an actual import game, if the archetype he excels against doesn't exist on the opposition.

Volume shooters shouldn’t get volume when next to Darius, Donovan, Evan, and Jarrett— at least if they’re going to shoot under league average like Strus did last year.

[JujitsuFlip]

Define “too big” and “too quick” (or give examples) and explain what the other options are on the roster that can do better than him. Who plays the 3 that is too big? Who is too quick for him that isn’t too quick for Garland, Mitchell, and Strus?

Let’s be clear— I don’t love him guarding actual 4s like Tatum or Banchero but daring them to shoot long 2s over him should be a viable defensive strategy. Some PGs are too quick for him to stay in front of but they’ll roast everyone on the roster. I don’t expect lockdown defense. I do expect Okoro to make them work and get tired in order to beat him, which most players can’t keep up for a full game or full series.

And now that the offense does more than just leave him in the corner, he’s not a liability there. He’s just low-usage.

You named 2 of the too big guys that come to mind, I'd rather try Wade in those lineups if he's on them or not. Because then Mobley can take them and Wade can volume shoot or use his size elsewhere on defense.

For the guards too quick that roast everyone, again, give me a volume shooter instead in those lineups then.

There are not a lot of times where i want Okoro playing many minutes in an actual import game, if the archetype he excels against doesn't exist on the opposition.

Volume shooters shouldn’t get volume when next to Darius, Donovan, Evan, and Jarrett— at least if they’re going to shoot under league average like Strus did last year.

They don't have to, it's the threat of the shot or what people call "gravity". Teams know Okoro won't shoot it, why teams have left him wide open, his entire career.

[toooskies]

You named 2 of the too big guys that come to mind, I'd rather try Wade in those lineups if he's on them or not. Because then Mobley can take them and Wade can volume shoot or use his size elsewhere on defense.

For the guards too quick that roast everyone, again, give me a volume shooter instead in those lineups then.

There are not a lot of times where i want Okoro playing many minutes in an actual import game, if the archetype he excels against doesn't exist on the opposition.

Volume shooters shouldn’t get volume when next to Darius, Donovan, Evan, and Jarrett— at least if they’re going to shoot under league average like Strus did last year.

They don't have to, it's the threat of the shot or what people call "gravity". Teams know Okoro won't shoot it, why teams have left him wide open, his entire career.

The problem is that for as much space as Strus’s shots benefit spacing, him missing them eats into the return. The Cavs are enormously more efficient this year because Strus and LeVert aren’t taking 20+ shots per game at low efficiency.

Okoro is only averaging 0.2 fewer made threes per game than Wade. The Cavs’ ORtg with Okoro on the court this year is 123.8.

[JujitsuFlip]

Volume shooters shouldn’t get volume when next to Darius, Donovan, Evan, and Jarrett— at least if they’re going to shoot under league average like Strus did last year.

They don't have to, it's the threat of the shot or what people call "gravity". Teams know Okoro won't shoot it, why teams have left him wide open, his entire career.

The problem is that for as much space as Strus’s shots benefit spacing, him missing them eats into the return. The Cavs are enormously more efficient this year because Strus and LeVert aren’t taking 20+ shots per game at low efficiency.

Okoro is only averaging 0.2 fewer made threes per game than Wade. The Cavs’ ORtg with Okoro on the court this year is 123.8.

They finally after 5 straight seasons of knucklehead jb, have a coach who cares about offense in Kenny.

Cavs have the best ORtg in the NBA at 120.9, there should be lots of guys whose is high this season.

[JonFromVA]

Volume shooters shouldn’t get volume when next to Darius, Donovan, Evan, and Jarrett— at least if they’re going to shoot under league average like Strus did last year.

They don't have to, it's the threat of the shot or what people call "gravity". Teams know Okoro won't shoot it, why teams have left him wide open, his entire career.

The problem is that for as much space as Strus’s shots benefit spacing, him missing them eats into the return. The Cavs are enormously more efficient this year because Strus and LeVert aren’t taking 20+ shots per game at low efficiency.

Okoro is only averaging 0.2 fewer made threes per game than Wade. The Cavs’ ORtg with Okoro on the court this year is 123.8.

Yep, but Caris has been amazingly efficient so far this season. It's likely Strus will be a lot better too.

Anyway, as I feared injuries are continuing to make Kenny's decisions for him.

[JujitsuFlip]

They don't have to, it's the threat of the shot or what people call "gravity". Teams know Okoro won't shoot it, why teams have left him wide open, his entire career.

The problem is that for as much space as Strus’s shots benefit spacing, him missing them eats into the return. The Cavs are enormously more efficient this year because Strus and LeVert aren’t taking 20+ shots per game at low efficiency.

Okoro is only averaging 0.2 fewer made threes per game than Wade. The Cavs’ ORtg with Okoro on the court this year is 123.8.

They finally after 5 straight seasons of knucklehead jb, have a coach who cares about offense in Kenny.

Cavs have the best ORtg in the NBA at 120.9, there should be lots of guys whose is high this season.

For example, this season...

Strus 142.9
LeVert 126.4
Okoro 123.8
Garland 123.3
Niang 121.5
Allen 121.2
Mobley 120.1
Mitchell 116.7
TJ 116.3
Wade 115.9
Merrill 114.3