Cooper Flagg - Duke

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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#481 » by bigboi » Tue Dec 24, 2024 7:18 pm

EvanZ wrote:
bigboi wrote:
clyde21 wrote:if the TS% scares you from picking him #1 then why pick him #2? at what point does it stop being a concern? if your argument is that it makes him #2 instead of #1 in favor of Harper, fine, but if it's a showstopper for you why would you take him #2? or even 3?

like no one is gonna sit here and argue 50% TS is good for Flagg or anyone else. obviously it needs to get (a lot) better. but it's either you believe it will get better as he and his body grow or you don't. and if you don't, how far does he drop for you?


Flagg is a future role player, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I could see him being like a Derrick White in impact. This draft isn’t that great tbh. A lot of the hyped prospects have looked mid to weak. Bailey has disappointed as well so that’s why Flagg will go top 2


Totally disagree with this. It's probably the deepest draft since 2018.


Deep doesn’t mean star potential lol.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#482 » by bigboi » Tue Dec 24, 2024 7:19 pm

clyde21 wrote:
bigboi wrote:
clyde21 wrote:if the TS% scares you from picking him #1 then why pick him #2? at what point does it stop being a concern? if your argument is that it makes him #2 instead of #1 in favor of Harper, fine, but if it's a showstopper for you why would you take him #2? or even 3?

like no one is gonna sit here and argue 50% TS is good for Flagg or anyone else. obviously it needs to get (a lot) better. but it's either you believe it will get better as he and his body grow or you don't. and if you don't, how far does he drop for you?


Flagg is a future role player, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I could see him being like a Derrick White in impact. This draft isn’t that great tbh. A lot of the hyped prospects have looked mid to weak. Bailey has disappointed as well so that’s why Flagg will go top 2


okay, so how low are you taking him?


In this draft, 2.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#483 » by azcatz11 » Tue Dec 24, 2024 7:27 pm

bigboi wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
bigboi wrote:
Flagg is a future role player, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I could see him being like a Derrick White in impact. This draft isn’t that great tbh. A lot of the hyped prospects have looked mid to weak. Bailey has disappointed as well so that’s why Flagg will go top 2


okay, so how low are you taking him?


In this draft, 2.


What's your top 10 or rough top 10? Just curious.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#484 » by clyde21 » Tue Dec 24, 2024 7:47 pm

bigboi wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
bigboi wrote:
Flagg is a future role player, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I could see him being like a Derrick White in impact. This draft isn’t that great tbh. A lot of the hyped prospects have looked mid to weak. Bailey has disappointed as well so that’s why Flagg will go top 2


okay, so how low are you taking him?


In this draft, 2.


why so high? if you think there are mission critical flaws with him, even called him a future role player, how are you justifying that 2nd overall pick selection?
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#485 » by HadAnEffectHere » Tue Dec 24, 2024 7:58 pm

clyde21 wrote:
bigboi wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
okay, so how low are you taking him?


In this draft, 2.


why so high? if you think there are mission critical flaws with him, even called him a future role player, how are you justifying that 2nd overall pick selection?


IMO, there are no very likely stars past Harper and Flagg and just a massive dropoff in quality after those two. If you think Flagg is just a super role player, it's fine to put him at #2 because there are no real difference makers other than him and Harper.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#486 » by clyde21 » Tue Dec 24, 2024 8:40 pm

HadAnEffectHere wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
bigboi wrote:
In this draft, 2.


why so high? if you think there are mission critical flaws with him, even called him a future role player, how are you justifying that 2nd overall pick selection?


IMO, there are no very likely stars past Harper and Flagg and just a massive dropoff in quality after those two. If you think Flagg is just a super role player, it's fine to put him at #2 because there are no real difference makers other than him and Harper.


if Cooper Flagg is just a role player and there is a massive drop off in talent after that then what are we talking about here, the worst class of all time?
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#487 » by HadAnEffectHere » Tue Dec 24, 2024 8:50 pm

clyde21 wrote:
HadAnEffectHere wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
why so high? if you think there are mission critical flaws with him, even called him a future role player, how are you justifying that 2nd overall pick selection?


IMO, there are no very likely stars past Harper and Flagg and just a massive dropoff in quality after those two. If you think Flagg is just a super role player, it's fine to put him at #2 because there are no real difference makers other than him and Harper.


if Cooper Flagg is just a role player and there is a massive drop off in talent after that then what are we talking about here, the worst class of all time?


It's a class of a ton of role players from like 3 to 20.

2 to 20 if Flagg doesn't start making shots.

The top 2 picks last year were role players at best with extremely limited ceilings so it's definitely not the worst class of all time, lol.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#488 » by bigboi » Tue Dec 24, 2024 9:23 pm

clyde21 wrote:
HadAnEffectHere wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
why so high? if you think there are mission critical flaws with him, even called him a future role player, how are you justifying that 2nd overall pick selection?


IMO, there are no very likely stars past Harper and Flagg and just a massive dropoff in quality after those two. If you think Flagg is just a super role player, it's fine to put him at #2 because there are no real difference makers other than him and Harper.


if Cooper Flagg is just a role player and there is a massive drop off in talent after that then what are we talking about here, the worst class of all time?


If Harper pans out, no. Last years draft is one of the worst all time prospect wise. This upcoming draft definitely had a lot of hype but a lot of folks fell flat. Won’t be worst all time but an alright draft. Think next years draft will be the one with superstars.

Example: VJ Edgecombe is projected as a top 10 pick while averaging 12 ppg on 42% shooting. Egor Demin is projected top 5 pick and realistically looks like a role player. So yes, this draft is a bunch of role playees
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Lebron made it to the finals with that cleveland team.

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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#489 » by antonac » Sun Dec 29, 2024 2:37 pm

Players like Flagg get cheated by the NCAA system. He's 6'10 and athletic, that makes him the best player in the majority of college games, but it's any run of the mill 8th man on an NBA team.

So he'll spend the year getting to dunk on students when he'd be better honing defensive skills and rounding out other ways he could contribute trying to become a useful starter in the future. He has the body to play in the NBA now, this is just a waste of time for him.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#490 » by EvanZ » Wed Jan 1, 2025 3:14 pm

HadAnEffectHere wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
bigboi wrote:
In this draft, 2.


why so high? if you think there are mission critical flaws with him, even called him a future role player, how are you justifying that 2nd overall pick selection?


IMO, there are no very likely stars past Harper and Flagg and just a massive dropoff in quality after those two. If you think Flagg is just a super role player, it's fine to put him at #2 because there are no real difference makers other than him and Harper.


What an unbelievably clueless take. This class is amazing. I love how people go to such great lengths to be contrarian. Last year all we heard was people saying how it was "ACTUALLY A REALLY GOOD CLASS". No, it was ****. And it looks like ****. This class is awesome compared to last season and one of the best of the last decade. It's very obvious. I'd say you're overthinking it but it's actually not thinking it at all. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#491 » by azcatz11 » Wed Jan 1, 2025 3:38 pm

antonac wrote:Players like Flagg get cheated by the NCAA system. He's 6'10 and athletic, that makes him the best player in the majority of college games, but it's any run of the mill 8th man on an NBA team.

So he'll spend the year getting to dunk on students when he'd be better honing defensive skills and rounding out other ways he could contribute trying to become a useful starter in the future. He has the body to play in the NBA now, this is just a waste of time for him.


Damn this makes a lot of sense and is kind of depressing when you think about it that way
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#492 » by HadAnEffectHere » Wed Jan 1, 2025 3:49 pm

EvanZ wrote:
HadAnEffectHere wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
why so high? if you think there are mission critical flaws with him, even called him a future role player, how are you justifying that 2nd overall pick selection?


IMO, there are no very likely stars past Harper and Flagg and just a massive dropoff in quality after those two. If you think Flagg is just a super role player, it's fine to put him at #2 because there are no real difference makers other than him and Harper.


What an unbelievably clueless take. This class is amazing. I love how people go to such great lengths to be contrarian. Last year all we heard was people saying how it was "ACTUALLY A REALLY GOOD CLASS". No, it was ****. And it looks like ****. This class is awesome compared to last season and one of the best of the last decade. It's very obvious. I'd say you're overthinking it but it's actually not thinking it at all. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


I had last year's class as the worst I've ever seen, but this year is just... OK. Maybe slightly above average.

A big issue is that the guys contributing just aren't very physically gifted (Jak, Tre Johnson, Queen) and so it's really hard to project them as major stars while the guys who had the athleticism to be stars (eg, Edgecombe) are not playing well.

Harper is a good #1 prospect and Flagg is a good #2 prospect, but I don't like 3-5 in this class so far. I have no idea who I would rank #3, #4, and #5. Maybe Fears at #3? But he's tiny and has a bad shooting form.

Anyway, glad to see Flagg finally making shots last night.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#493 » by clyde21 » Wed Jan 1, 2025 6:33 pm

let's be more specific, Edgecombe is actually playing well, he's just not shooting well, which I know in the modern NBA every conversation about a player devolves into this "can he shoot" garbage which is why being i'm being turned off by this league more and more every year.

re: Edgecombe, dude has been a monster defensively, over 5 steals and 2 blocks per 100 possessions, almost 11 BPM, +25 Net Rating, and actually has a pretty respectable 6.6 assists per 100 for what's supposed to be an off-ball court runner.

this is pretty clearly a good class. much *much* better than last years with better archetypes and better athletes and better players overall. so ranking Cooper #2 by default despite only capping him as a role player doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#494 » by HadAnEffectHere » Wed Jan 1, 2025 6:41 pm

clyde21 wrote:let's be more specific, Edgecombe is actually playing well, he's just not shooting well, which I know in the modern NBA every conversation about a player devolves into this "can he shoot" garbage which is why being i'm being turned off by this league more and more every year.

re: Edgecombe, dude has been a monster defensively, over 5 steals and 2 blocks per 100 possessions, almost 11 BPM, +25 Net Rating, and actually has a pretty respectable 6.6 assists per 100 for what's supposed to be an off-ball court runner.

this is pretty clearly a good class. much *much* better than last years with better archetypes and better athletes and better players overall. so ranking Cooper #2 by default despite only capping him as a role player doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.


... Yes, we're projecting players based on how well they'll play in the NBA and you have to be a great shooter most of the time to make an NBA rotation as a non-center now.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#495 » by clyde21 » Wed Jan 1, 2025 6:48 pm

HadAnEffectHere wrote:
clyde21 wrote:let's be more specific, Edgecombe is actually playing well, he's just not shooting well, which I know in the modern NBA every conversation about a player devolves into this "can he shoot" garbage which is why being i'm being turned off by this league more and more every year.

re: Edgecombe, dude has been a monster defensively, over 5 steals and 2 blocks per 100 possessions, almost 11 BPM, +25 Net Rating, and actually has a pretty respectable 6.6 assists per 100 for what's supposed to be an off-ball court runner.

this is pretty clearly a good class. much *much* better than last years with better archetypes and better athletes and better players overall. so ranking Cooper #2 by default despite only capping him as a role player doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.


... Yes, we're projecting players based on how well they'll play in the NBA and you have to be a great shooter most of the time to make an NBA rotation as a non-center now.


okay then i got breaking news for you: there's never gonna be a good class again. if you think next year's HS class are all gonna go into college and shoot lights out good luck to you.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#496 » by BigGargamel » Thu Jan 2, 2025 3:29 am

clyde21 wrote:let's be more specific, Edgecombe is actually playing well, he's just not shooting well, which I know in the modern NBA every conversation about a player devolves into this "can he shoot" garbage which is why being i'm being turned off by this league more and more every year.

re: Edgecombe, dude has been a monster defensively, over 5 steals and 2 blocks per 100 possessions, almost 11 BPM, +25 Net Rating, and actually has a pretty respectable 6.6 assists per 100 for what's supposed to be an off-ball court runner.

this is pretty clearly a good class. much *much* better than last years with better archetypes and better athletes and better players overall. so ranking Cooper #2 by default despite only capping him as a role player doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.


The hyper fixated obsession with shooting percentages on this board, and discussing the NBA draft in particular, is so exhausting. Most of these guys can just barrel roll to the rim every time in high school. Once they get to college they start to develop their jump shot. That's a skill that can be improved on. A guy can do 100 things well, but people won't stop nitpicking the 35% from 3 stat. Yes, shooting is important, but it's not the ONLY thing. It's so annoying.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#497 » by The-Power » Thu Jan 2, 2025 6:48 am

BigGargamel wrote:The hyper fixated obsession with shooting percentages on this board, and discussing the NBA draft in particular, is so exhausting. Most of these guys can just barrel roll to the rim every time in high school. Once they get to college they start to develop their jump shot. That's a skill that can be improved on. A guy can do 100 things well, but people won't stop nitpicking the 35% from 3 stat. Yes, shooting is important, but it's not the ONLY thing. It's so annoying.

It makes sense to look at shooting indicators because that's just a pretty big swing skill for many players. I actually think a bigger issue is when people just assume that players will naturally improve their shooting to required levels for their roles. Because that's just not the case. While most players improve their shooting to some extent (as they do in most other aspects of basketball from physical tools to skills and cognitive abilities) that does not mean they will reach the level they need to; and if the gap is large, it's quite difficult to overcome that (not least because everyone else around them continues to improve as well).

Where I agree is that we should not simply look at raw 3P% and draw conclusions based on that. There are other shooting indicators that should be taken into account, too, such as FT%, shot mechanics, volume, confidence, and shot type. It is also important to understand that different roles require different levels (and types) of shooting ability – and that some type of shots are easier to improve in proficiency than others (e.g., it's easier for a big man with decent touch to become efficient at open 3s in PnPs than it is for a ball handler to become efficient at shooting 3s off the dribble (in case they lack these skills in college)).

So as usual, I would say what's annoying are comments that lack the required nuance or context and make definitive claims about prospects when there are a ton of contingencies built into the development process. As long as we acknowledge the uncertainty, the complexity and the different contexts in our posts, I think we're good – even if someone still weighs shooting ability more than we do.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#498 » by FarBeyondDriven » Thu Jan 2, 2025 8:16 am

clyde21 wrote:let's be more specific, Edgecombe is actually playing well, he's just not shooting well, which I know in the modern NBA every conversation about a player devolves into this "can he shoot" garbage which is why being i'm being turned off by this league more and more every year.

re: Edgecombe, dude has been a monster defensively, over 5 steals and 2 blocks per 100 possessions, almost 11 BPM, +25 Net Rating, and actually has a pretty respectable 6.6 assists per 100 for what's supposed to be an off-ball court runner.

this is pretty clearly a good class. much *much* better than last years with better archetypes and better athletes and better players overall. so ranking Cooper #2 by default despite only capping him as a role player doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.


such nonsense. lol what does this even mean? Please enlighten us what constitutes archetype in your mind and who in 2025 fits and who in 2024 doesn't.

2024 has every archetype you can imagine. Shot blocking bigs, stretch bigs, athletic 3 and D wings, shooters, scorers, combo guards, lead guards.

I know you didn't think McCain was potentially a lead guard but when he started he put up 24/3/4 (39% from three) and proved he was before going down with injury. That's Maxey production, who most consider a lead guard. Do you expect much better from Harper as a rookie? Let me guess, you won't admit McCain fits in the lead guard archetype still. McCain is just one of many examples of you people being wrong about the 2024 class. I wish we could fast forward a few years because it's going to be fun calling everyone out on here.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#499 » by HadAnEffectHere » Thu Jan 2, 2025 3:00 pm

BigGargamel wrote:
clyde21 wrote:let's be more specific, Edgecombe is actually playing well, he's just not shooting well, which I know in the modern NBA every conversation about a player devolves into this "can he shoot" garbage which is why being i'm being turned off by this league more and more every year.

re: Edgecombe, dude has been a monster defensively, over 5 steals and 2 blocks per 100 possessions, almost 11 BPM, +25 Net Rating, and actually has a pretty respectable 6.6 assists per 100 for what's supposed to be an off-ball court runner.

this is pretty clearly a good class. much *much* better than last years with better archetypes and better athletes and better players overall. so ranking Cooper #2 by default despite only capping him as a role player doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.


The hyper fixated obsession with shooting percentages on this board, and discussing the NBA draft in particular, is so exhausting. Most of these guys can just barrel roll to the rim every time in high school. Once they get to college they start to develop their jump shot. That's a skill that can be improved on. A guy can do 100 things well, but people won't stop nitpicking the 35% from 3 stat. Yes, shooting is important, but it's not the ONLY thing. It's so annoying.


Shooting is a prerequisite is the issue. If you're a bad shooter as a perimeter player, you're just a bad player most of the time.
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Re: Cooper Flagg - Duke 

Post#500 » by clyde21 » Thu Jan 2, 2025 5:19 pm

HadAnEffectHere wrote:
BigGargamel wrote:
clyde21 wrote:let's be more specific, Edgecombe is actually playing well, he's just not shooting well, which I know in the modern NBA every conversation about a player devolves into this "can he shoot" garbage which is why being i'm being turned off by this league more and more every year.

re: Edgecombe, dude has been a monster defensively, over 5 steals and 2 blocks per 100 possessions, almost 11 BPM, +25 Net Rating, and actually has a pretty respectable 6.6 assists per 100 for what's supposed to be an off-ball court runner.

this is pretty clearly a good class. much *much* better than last years with better archetypes and better athletes and better players overall. so ranking Cooper #2 by default despite only capping him as a role player doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.


The hyper fixated obsession with shooting percentages on this board, and discussing the NBA draft in particular, is so exhausting. Most of these guys can just barrel roll to the rim every time in high school. Once they get to college they start to develop their jump shot. That's a skill that can be improved on. A guy can do 100 things well, but people won't stop nitpicking the 35% from 3 stat. Yes, shooting is important, but it's not the ONLY thing. It's so annoying.


Shooting is a prerequisite is the issue. If you're a bad shooter as a perimeter player, you're just a bad player most of the time.


then go and make your big board based on 3pt shooting % and be done with it. what is there to discuss?
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