If AK wants to win as much as possible this season, what's a good plan?

[dougthonus]

Your last paragraph pretty much described the current Bulls. Their current RPI indicates a 42 win team. They have the assets to upgrade the 4 spot and make it a 45+ win team. Every team relying on a go-to player is 1 injury from the cliff. I think a 45 win team with a more balanced scoring distribution has lower risk exposure . The Bulls are the 10th youngest team in the league and 2 of their 3 older players aren't even playing meaningful minutes. Their top 12 players in minutes (the only ones with significant minutes) average 24.85 years old and the only guy over 29 is Vuc.

I'm okay with being one "go to" player injury falling off a cliff. What I'm not okay with is you lose your 4th or 5th starter and fall off a cliff.

As for whether my description describes the Bulls? I don't know that it does for the following reasons:

1: Vuc is definitely not a guy I'd count on replicating this performance ever again.
2: Lonzo is a dicey guy on whether you can count on him doing anything over a long period of time.
3: Salarywise, you may already be choosing between Lonzo/Giddey next year, and may not be able to keep Coby/Ayo after that

Also, 42 wins is a pretty good away from 45+ wins. A single player that can add 3 wins is actually quite a player. We've been screwing around with pretty similar permutations to this group for 3 years, and we did hit 46 wins once, but haven't hit 500 again since. Being young overall is maybe different from being young in your greatest areas of contribution as well given I'd say our greatest contributors this season are Zach, Lonzo, and Vuc, and I think there is some risk around all three of those guys being sustainable.

I think it'd be very difficult to turn this Bulls team into a 3 year 45+ win team while avoiding the luxury tax (which you clearly aren't paying for a 6 seed) even if you were willing to throw future picks into the mix. From a practical perspective, who is the PF you think is gettable that makes this happen and what does it take to get them?

Maybe to your larger point, I'd have no problem trading Coby White and saying "screw it, we're keeping Zach for 3 years rather than trying to sell low and feature poor man's Zach", but not sure how much trade value Coby carries right now. I think if you wanted to go in this direction, that's the move though.

[Stratmaster]

Your last paragraph pretty much described the current Bulls. Their current RPI indicates a 42 win team. They have the assets to upgrade the 4 spot and make it a 45+ win team. Every team relying on a go-to player is 1 injury from the cliff. I think a 45 win team with a more balanced scoring distribution has lower risk exposure . The Bulls are the 10th youngest team in the league and 2 of their 3 older players aren't even playing meaningful minutes. Their top 12 players in minutes (the only ones with significant minutes) average 24.85 years old and the only guy over 29 is Vuc.

I'm okay with being one "go to" player injury falling off a cliff. What I'm not okay with is you lose your 4th or 5th starter and fall off a cliff.

As for whether my description describes the Bulls? I don't know that it does for the following reasons:

1: Vuc is definitely not a guy I'd count on replicating this performance ever again.
2: Lonzo is a dicey guy on whether you can count on him doing anything over a long period of time.
3: Salarywise, you may already be choosing between Lonzo/Giddey next year, and may not be able to keep Coby/Ayo after that

Also, 42 wins is a pretty good away from 45+ wins. A single player that can add 3 wins is actually quite a player. We've been screwing around with pretty similar permutations to this group for 3 years, and we did hit 46 wins once, but haven't hit 500 again since. Being young overall is maybe different from being young in your greatest areas of contribution as well given I'd say our greatest contributors this season are Zach, Lonzo, and Vuc, and I think there is some risk around all three of those guys being sustainable.

I think it'd be very difficult to turn this Bulls team into a 3 year 45+ win team while avoiding the luxury tax (which you clearly aren't paying for a 6 seed) even if you were willing to throw future picks into the mix. From a practical perspective, who is the PF you think is gettable that makes this happen and what does it take to get them?

Maybe to your larger point, I'd have no problem trading Coby White and saying "screw it, we're keeping Zach for 3 years rather than trying to sell low and feature poor man's Zach", but not sure how much trade value Coby carries right now. I think if you wanted to go in this direction, that's the move though.

Well we agree on the move at least. Except I would go further. I think Coby and Williams hinder winning. I don't think Terry or Phillips are having any significant contributions. Obviously Carter and Craig aren't helping (although I think Craig could). Package any or all of them to improve the team. THT too as long as you are getting a scorer back in one of the trades.

I want to blow it up. The drafted youth movement that is. Too early to tell on Matas and he shows promise. Ayo is proving he can contribute to winning; if nothing else an ok 5th starter or very high end bench piece.

Other than that I don't see a single thing from any of them that is compelling. They should have been packaged a year ago. That is what building through the draft really means. Draft all those assets and package them for an actual good player.

[jnrjr79]

Your last paragraph pretty much described the current Bulls. Their current RPI indicates a 42 win team. They have the assets to upgrade the 4 spot and make it a 45+ win team. Every team relying on a go-to player is 1 injury from the cliff. I think a 45 win team with a more balanced scoring distribution has lower risk exposure . The Bulls are the 10th youngest team in the league and 2 of their 3 older players aren't even playing meaningful minutes. Their top 12 players in minutes (the only ones with significant minutes) average 24.85 years old and the only guy over 29 is Vuc.

I'm okay with being one "go to" player injury falling off a cliff. What I'm not okay with is you lose your 4th or 5th starter and fall off a cliff.

As for whether my description describes the Bulls? I don't know that it does for the following reasons:

1: Vuc is definitely not a guy I'd count on replicating this performance ever again.
2: Lonzo is a dicey guy on whether you can count on him doing anything over a long period of time.
3: Salarywise, you may already be choosing between Lonzo/Giddey next year, and may not be able to keep Coby/Ayo after that

Also, 42 wins is a pretty good away from 45+ wins. A single player that can add 3 wins is actually quite a player. We've been screwing around with pretty similar permutations to this group for 3 years, and we did hit 46 wins once, but haven't hit 500 again since. Being young overall is maybe different from being young in your greatest areas of contribution as well given I'd say our greatest contributors this season are Zach, Lonzo, and Vuc, and I think there is some risk around all three of those guys being sustainable.

I think it'd be very difficult to turn this Bulls team into a 3 year 45+ win team while avoiding the luxury tax (which you clearly aren't paying for a 6 seed) even if you were willing to throw future picks into the mix. From a practical perspective, who is the PF you think is gettable that makes this happen and what does it take to get them?

Maybe to your larger point, I'd have no problem trading Coby White and saying "screw it, we're keeping Zach for 3 years rather than trying to sell low and feature poor man's Zach", but not sure how much trade value Coby carries right now. I think if you wanted to go in this direction, that's the move though.

Well we agree on the move at least. Except I would go further. I think Coby and Williams hinder winning. I don't think Terry or Phillips are having any significant contributions. Obviously Carter and Craig aren't helping (although I think Craig could). Package any or all of them to improve the team. THT too as long as you are getting a scorer back in one of the trades.

The problem here is you'd need to find NBA teams who do not share your assessment of Coby and Williams for this to work. If they suck and don't contribute to winning, why is anyone trading the Bulls an upgrade at the 4 for them, when one of them is on a large-ish contract and the other will need a new deal?

[sco]

I'm okay with being one "go to" player injury falling off a cliff. What I'm not okay with is you lose your 4th or 5th starter and fall off a cliff.

As for whether my description describes the Bulls? I don't know that it does for the following reasons:

1: Vuc is definitely not a guy I'd count on replicating this performance ever again.
2: Lonzo is a dicey guy on whether you can count on him doing anything over a long period of time.
3: Salarywise, you may already be choosing between Lonzo/Giddey next year, and may not be able to keep Coby/Ayo after that

Also, 42 wins is a pretty good away from 45+ wins. A single player that can add 3 wins is actually quite a player. We've been screwing around with pretty similar permutations to this group for 3 years, and we did hit 46 wins once, but haven't hit 500 again since. Being young overall is maybe different from being young in your greatest areas of contribution as well given I'd say our greatest contributors this season are Zach, Lonzo, and Vuc, and I think there is some risk around all three of those guys being sustainable.

I think it'd be very difficult to turn this Bulls team into a 3 year 45+ win team while avoiding the luxury tax (which you clearly aren't paying for a 6 seed) even if you were willing to throw future picks into the mix. From a practical perspective, who is the PF you think is gettable that makes this happen and what does it take to get them?

Maybe to your larger point, I'd have no problem trading Coby White and saying "screw it, we're keeping Zach for 3 years rather than trying to sell low and feature poor man's Zach", but not sure how much trade value Coby carries right now. I think if you wanted to go in this direction, that's the move though.

Well we agree on the move at least. Except I would go further. I think Coby and Williams hinder winning. I don't think Terry or Phillips are having any significant contributions. Obviously Carter and Craig aren't helping (although I think Craig could). Package any or all of them to improve the team. THT too as long as you are getting a scorer back in one of the trades.

The problem here is you'd need to find NBA teams who do not share your assessment of Coby and Williams for this to work. If they suck and don't contribute to winning, why is anyone trading the Bulls an upgrade at the 4 for them, when one of them is on a large-ish contract and the other will need a new deal?

I think that Coby and PWill, if traded, would be part of a larger deal where they are add-ons to get a "more useful" asset.

[jnrjr79]

Well we agree on the move at least. Except I would go further. I think Coby and Williams hinder winning. I don't think Terry or Phillips are having any significant contributions. Obviously Carter and Craig aren't helping (although I think Craig could). Package any or all of them to improve the team. THT too as long as you are getting a scorer back in one of the trades.

The problem here is you'd need to find NBA teams who do not share your assessment of Coby and Williams for this to work. If they suck and don't contribute to winning, why is anyone trading the Bulls an upgrade at the 4 for them, when one of them is on a large-ish contract and the other will need a new deal?

I think that Coby and PWill, if traded, would be part of a larger deal where they are add-ons to get a "more useful" asset.

Well, sure. But if we're talking about attaching draft assets as sweeteners in a deal like that, that's where I draw the line (absent knowing exactly who the target would be).

[Stratmaster]

I'm okay with being one "go to" player injury falling off a cliff. What I'm not okay with is you lose your 4th or 5th starter and fall off a cliff.

As for whether my description describes the Bulls? I don't know that it does for the following reasons:

1: Vuc is definitely not a guy I'd count on replicating this performance ever again.
2: Lonzo is a dicey guy on whether you can count on him doing anything over a long period of time.
3: Salarywise, you may already be choosing between Lonzo/Giddey next year, and may not be able to keep Coby/Ayo after that

Also, 42 wins is a pretty good away from 45+ wins. A single player that can add 3 wins is actually quite a player. We've been screwing around with pretty similar permutations to this group for 3 years, and we did hit 46 wins once, but haven't hit 500 again since. Being young overall is maybe different from being young in your greatest areas of contribution as well given I'd say our greatest contributors this season are Zach, Lonzo, and Vuc, and I think there is some risk around all three of those guys being sustainable.

I think it'd be very difficult to turn this Bulls team into a 3 year 45+ win team while avoiding the luxury tax (which you clearly aren't paying for a 6 seed) even if you were willing to throw future picks into the mix. From a practical perspective, who is the PF you think is gettable that makes this happen and what does it take to get them?

Maybe to your larger point, I'd have no problem trading Coby White and saying "screw it, we're keeping Zach for 3 years rather than trying to sell low and feature poor man's Zach", but not sure how much trade value Coby carries right now. I think if you wanted to go in this direction, that's the move though.

Well we agree on the move at least. Except I would go further. I think Coby and Williams hinder winning. I don't think Terry or Phillips are having any significant contributions. Obviously Carter and Craig aren't helping (although I think Craig could). Package any or all of them to improve the team. THT too as long as you are getting a scorer back in one of the trades.

The problem here is you'd need to find NBA teams who do not share your assessment of Coby and Williams for this to work. If they suck and don't contribute to winning, why is anyone trading the Bulls an upgrade at the 4 for them, when one of them is on a large-ish contract and the other will need a new deal?

It would take both of them to get an upgrade.

[Infinity2152]

Y'all are so down on our guys value!! Where do we think other teams would rank the Bulls in player development, somewhere from mid to near the bottom? Would stand to reason there are some GM's and coaches who think they could get more out of these Bulls than we have. Coby's started a lot because of injuries to Ball and Lavine. He could probably be a very good scoring sixth man. To team with say 3 PF's, which would be more valuable, that second rookie PF averaging 9 and 6, playing 16 minutes, or a needed guard who's giving you 17 pts/gm off the bench in 28 mins? That second PF could be just as good a player, but he has less value to the team, say he's playing behind Aaron Gordon or Jaren jackson for instance. We find the right team and don't look thirsty, we can find a good trade for Coby, the guy has had a 37 point game, and many over 20. He's averaging 18, 4, and 4 right now.

They're probably asking a lot for him. Until they resolve the Zach situation, there's no rush to move White in their eyes.

[kodo]

The grind is officially over after that Boston game. Bulls have the 30th toughest schedule remaining.

[dougthonus]

Yeah, honestly, if the goal is just to try to be a 45 win team for a few years, the Bulls can probably achieve that easily enough.

To be fair, I said 45+ for 3 years. We've been trying to win, and we've not been able to do that. I think getting there once is not that hard, but having that be the floor for a sustained run is harder than you think.

[dougthonus]

Well we agree on the move at least. Except I would go further. I think Coby and Williams hinder winning. I don't think Terry or Phillips are having any significant contributions. Obviously Carter and Craig aren't helping (although I think Craig could). Package any or all of them to improve the team. THT too as long as you are getting a scorer back in one of the trades.

Of these guys, I'm not sure anyone but Coby has positive value, and I'm not sure how much you'd get for him. I have a hard time envisioning what trade you could make that adds sustainable wins over a 3 year period for that group.

I want to blow it up. The drafted youth movement that is. Too early to tell on Matas and he shows promise. Ayo is proving he can contribute to winning; if nothing else an ok 5th starter or very high end bench piece.

Other than that I don't see a single thing from any of them that is compelling. They should have been packaged a year ago. That is what building through the draft really means. Draft all those assets and package them for an actual good player.

I'm not attached to this team, I'd be fine blowing it up. The opportunities rumored aren't real exciting. We've missed our window on so many good opportunities. If we do have any future good opportunities we should take them though.

[jordanwilliams6]

We’re really going to hand over the 11th pick to the Spurs aren’t we?

[jnrjr79]

Yeah, honestly, if the goal is just to try to be a 45 win team for a few years, the Bulls can probably achieve that easily enough.

To be fair, I said 45+ for 3 years. We've been trying to win, and we've not been able to do that. I think getting there once is not that hard, but having that be the floor for a sustained run is harder than you think.

You could be right, but I suspect it wouldn’t be that hard. It would be foolhardy, but I don’t think that difficult. Trade some combination of Coby, Ayo, Pat, and draft assets (again, unwise, but just thinking out loud here) for immediate contributors, and you’re probably here. Yes, you have Vooch of the books in 2 years, but in this alternate universe you can probably give him a 2-year deal, or he’s regressed and you’re better off without him.

[jnrjr79]

Well we agree on the move at least. Except I would go further. I think Coby and Williams hinder winning. I don't think Terry or Phillips are having any significant contributions. Obviously Carter and Craig aren't helping (although I think Craig could). Package any or all of them to improve the team. THT too as long as you are getting a scorer back in one of the trades.

Of these guys, I'm not sure anyone but Coby has positive value, and I'm not sure how much you'd get for him. I have a hard time envisioning what trade you could make that adds sustainable wins over a 3 year period for that group.

I am in no way advocating for this move, but are the Bulls are 45-win team for the foreseeable future if they trade Coby + Pat + the pick back to Portland for Jerami Grant? Probably?

[dougthonus]

You could be right, but I suspect it wouldn’t be that hard. It would be foolhardy, but I don’t think that difficult.

That would speak to our extreme incompetence to date, given we've been attempting to win now and have not been able to do it if it were actually easy. Not that it'd be hard to sell me on our extreme incompetence.

Trade some combination of Coby, Ayo, Pat, and draft assets (again, unwise, but just thinking out loud here) for immediate contributors, and you’re probably here. Yes, you have Vooch of the books in 2 years, but in this alternate universe you can probably give him a 2-year deal, or he’s regressed and you’re better off without him.

I think if you were willing to max all our unprotected picks, you could pull it off. I guess I'd throw that as beyond reasonable in cost to make it happen. Just moving Coby, Ayo, Pat around, I don't think you could. Pat's got no value IMO, and Coby Ayo will then create further gaps if they're moved.

I know it's tough to ever ask people to come up with trade ideas on these types of fictional things, but I can't think of what kind of player we'd have to add to become a consistently above average team, but I think it'd be a 3rd best player on a team type of guy, and think that's beyond what we get for that package of players.

[Stratmaster]

Well we agree on the move at least. Except I would go further. I think Coby and Williams hinder winning. I don't think Terry or Phillips are having any significant contributions. Obviously Carter and Craig aren't helping (although I think Craig could). Package any or all of them to improve the team. THT too as long as you are getting a scorer back in one of the trades.

Of these guys, I'm not sure anyone but Coby has positive value, and I'm not sure how much you'd get for him. I have a hard time envisioning what trade you could make that adds sustainable wins over a 3 year period for that group.

I want to blow it up. The drafted youth movement that is. Too early to tell on Matas and he shows promise. Ayo is proving he can contribute to winning; if nothing else an ok 5th starter or very high end bench piece.

Other than that I don't see a single thing from any of them that is compelling. They should have been packaged a year ago. That is what building through the draft really means. Draft all those assets and package them for an actual good player.

I'm not attached to this team, I'd be fine blowing it up. The opportunities rumored aren't real exciting. We've missed our window on so many good opportunities. If we do have any future good opportunities we should take them though.

I think you could move Coby, Pat and Craig for a quality player. Hell. Add in Terry if it helps.

[dougthonus]

I think you could move Coby, Pat and Craig for a quality player. Hell. Add in Terry if it helps.

You have any names in mind? I don't see it, but it's a tough question because trade possibilities are always unknowable.

[Stratmaster]

You could be right, but I suspect it wouldn’t be that hard. It would be foolhardy, but I don’t think that difficult.

That would speak to our extreme incompetence to date, given we've been attempting to win now and have not been able to do it if it were actually easy. Not that it'd be hard to sell me on our extreme incompetence.

Trade some combination of Coby, Ayo, Pat, and draft assets (again, unwise, but just thinking out loud here) for immediate contributors, and you’re probably here. Yes, you have Vooch of the books in 2 years, but in this alternate universe you can probably give him a 2-year deal, or he’s regressed and you’re better off without him.

I think if you were willing to max all our unprotected picks, you could pull it off. I guess I'd throw that as beyond reasonable in cost to make it happen. Just moving Coby, Ayo, Pat around, I don't think you could. Pat's got no value IMO, and Coby Ayo will then create further gaps if they're moved.

I know it's tough to ever ask people to come up with trade ideas on these types of fictional things, but I can't think of what kind of player we'd have to add to become a consistently above average team, but I think it'd be a 3rd best player on a team type of guy, and think that's beyond what we get for that package of players.

We only have 3 quality starters right now. 4 if you count Ayo with 3 of them being guards. One of them only plays every other game. It wouldn't have to be a 3rd best player. It would have to be someone who can play starter quality basketball at the 4 for 30+ minutes per game. That is filling a 20% hole right there.

The problem with this team hasn't been just overall talent. It has been roster construction and coaching/FO decisions. How much longer should we sit with 8 "wing" players filling 3 positions? Everyone has been complaining about construction but no one wants a consolidation trade; which is the whole point of accumulating young assets and the process that follows acquiring them?

There seems to be a thought process going on that we just lose, keep drafting young players. Give them time to develop. And voila... contenders. That isn't how this works. The type of trade I am suggesting will have to happen whichever route you choose. If we wait much longer all that pretty shine and potential that other teams might trade for will have worn off our youth movement. It's already happening.

Whether you can get much for Coby, Pat, Terry and Phillips now or not; it is likely more than you will get for them a month from now and certainly more than you will get a year from now. What are we waiting for?

[jordanwilliams6]

I think you could move Coby, Pat and Craig for a quality player. Hell. Add in Terry if it helps.

You have any names in mind? I don't see it, but it's a tough question because trade possibilities are always unknowable.

You just have to look at any tanking teams with quality players who will be looking to add young assets or draft capital (basically what we should be doing).

Jerami Grant, DFS, Cam Johnson, John Collins are all examples of guys that will improve our team and could be acquired with a combination of Coby & Pat.

[MrSparkle]

The elements I like(d) from this pretty rough season...

1. Having 2 elite passers (Lonzo and Giddey).

2. Having 2 elite 3P shooters (Vuc at 45% and Zach 43%... This is not going to last, but if it does, holy cow).

3. Couple of young "glue" guys who can D up and handle/pass/shoot decently (Ayo, maybe Matas & Phillips, and I suppose we can foolishly hold hope for Pat, let alone Terry).

The thwarts to each...

1. They're both injury prone. One of whom is lucky to be playing again. And both expiring(!!) with intensions of getting paid well. And of course Giddey's defense.

2. Vuc/Zach defense is about as bad as it gets. Call me nuts, but I think the "pressure's off to win, we're looking for trades" is why they're shooting so well. There are hardly any stakes.

3. Below-average NBA players, behind their peers' curves. I like Matas and Ayo particularly, but if they're still registering sub-15 PERs in the next 3 seasons, you don't have building blocks: you have MLE players.

I don't even mention Coby, Jalen nor the rest. I think they're solid bench caliber players who don't play consistently well enough on either end to impact daily games. I do think Jalen should play more minutes, but I also don't think he'd make much of a difference. Journeyman for a reason.

Short of a prime star like Giannis/Tatum/Shai/Luka/Wagner (yeah the pick we handed away), I don't know who you add to this roster to win as much as possible. I think a Jimmy/Durant/Lebron/Davis type (past prime) would plain struggle with the lack of rim protection and durability.

So anybody got a free coupon for Wemby, Mobley, Chet, LaMelo, Sengun? These are some of the best young players IMO. Only one of those was drafted past #3. I initially thought this FO could find some late gems, but they have the worst draft results in the league. The best parts of the team are expiring, injured or on the trade block. This is a bad nightmare that won't end.

We're feeling like the dollar-store version of the 2000s Knicks. Reaching the 10 year anniversary of the last time we won 50 games. And we're on course to giving up the best possible pick to San Antonio? AKME's risk for stupid appetite is comical. They seem to love 1% odds.

[Stratmaster]

I think you could move Coby, Pat and Craig for a quality player. Hell. Add in Terry if it helps.

You have any names in mind? I don't see it, but it's a tough question because trade possibilities are always unknowable.

No names. Just a standard process. Who are the solid starting 4's on the bottom 15 teams and would any of those teams be looking to move them for a couple "young assets". Then are there any top starting 4's who are disgruntled. Then are there any starting quality 4's who are coming off the bench because they are behind an all-star level guy. That's the starting list.

I have no way of knowing who is available. I don't scout every other player on the league in depth to know which ones are for real. My opinion on who means nothing. There are people getting paid big bucks to figure that out. It isn't that this player isn't out there. The Bulls had Gafford. They picked up Theiss midseason a few years ago. For whatever reason the Bulls have shown no interest in filling the biggest skill hole on their roster over the last few seasons.