Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Chandan]

Regardless of whether he has "it" or not, it would have been better to had found out earlier instead of after giving him a 40+ mil extension.

[Tripod]

As you pointed out, how many of his 17 games has he actually been healthy in? A handful. And we saw him post a career high 35 in an efficient manner when healthy.

Yeah, I wanted to throw that out there because not only has he been in only so many games, he hasn't been fully healthy, either. And that definitely impacts things. And there have definitely been some games where he's been bullying his way to the rim effectively and just wasn't finishing (even though he's actually above league-average finishing in close on the season to date).

There are positive signs. I just hope we start having more time where he is showing us more than promising signs. We need him to be healthy and we need the guys around him to be healthy as well.

For sure.

All I think about is we have a guy who can be a 20-8-8 guy yet....

Has not been surrounded by shooters yet
Has not played with a stretch C yet
Has played lots with bench guys
Has no one who sets HIM up for easy buckets
Doesn't shoot the 3 well
Doesn't beat his man off the dribble
Hasn't been put in HIS best position to score(key)
Doesn't have a go to move yet
Doesn't have a teammate who draws double teams
Etc...

There are lots of things that can still improve that improve his "stats". Lots are in his control, lots are a team thing.

But what SHOULD get people excited is he is a 20-8-8 guy with all those things that can still get better. If only a few get better, it matters.

Oh, and he was "furthest away from reaching his prime" on draft day. Yet has the ROTY and ALL STAR nod that no one else in his draft class has yet.

This draft class will always have different guys who have the "best years", imo. It will change year to year. There was a lot of very good guys drafted, we should be happy we got one of them. He has already shown he CAN be the best any given year.

[tsherkin]

There are lots of things that can still improve that improve his "stats". Lots are in his control, lots are a team thing.

But what SHOULD get people excited is he is a 20-8-8 guy with all those things that can still get better. If only a few get better, it matters.

It's true.

He's missing a bunch of stuff that would have let him excel to this point, but all that illustrates is why he isn't a generational talent/tier 1 guy, which isn't a sin. He's clearly got a diverse skill set, and he's doing a pretty good job of using his body right now. He does a lot, and as we slowly optimize the situation around him, he should get better.

I AM happy that, at least so far, he's using and hitting the middie. He's around the nail a lot and the left baseline, and he is hitting a decent amount in that top left corner of the key in like the bottom of the circle. When he comes from the left wing and then does that pull back there, or when he's hooking from there (hurr hurr), he's pretty effective. It's something I've been hoping to see a little more of for a few seasons now and he's doing it. Now he just needs to get to the rim more and start hitting his 3s and FTs at a higher rate and we're going to see significant improvement. And the FT thing is probably just sample size, I mean, he's got several years as a mid/high 70s guy, so it's reasonable to expect that to normalize. The 3, we'll see, but whatever. He's consistently good at getting shots inside 10 feet and hitting them well, which is a nice foundation. He's drawing fouls better this year. He looks more confident in his handle, moving east-west, slow-driving his way to the rim with change of pace and his shoulders.

Lots to be excited about.

[Tripod]

There are lots of things that can still improve that improve his "stats". Lots are in his control, lots are a team thing.

But what SHOULD get people excited is he is a 20-8-8 guy with all those things that can still get better. If only a few get better, it matters.

It's true.

He's missing a bunch of stuff that would have let him excel to this point, but all that illustrates is why he isn't a generational talent/tier 1 guy, which isn't a sin. He's clearly got a diverse skill set, and he's doing a pretty good job of using his body right now. He does a lot, and as we slowly optimize the situation around him, he should get better.

I AM happy that, at least so far, he's using and hitting the middie. He's around the nail a lot and the left baseline, and he is hitting a decent amount in that top left corner of the key in like the bottom of the circle. When he comes from the left wing and then does that pull back there, or when he's hooking from there (hurr hurr), he's pretty effective. It's something I've been hoping to see a little more of for a few seasons now and he's doing it. Now he just needs to get to the rim more and start hitting his 3s and FTs at a higher rate and we're going to see significant improvement. And the FT thing is probably just sample size, I mean, he's got several years as a mid/high 70s guy, so it's reasonable to expect that to normalize. The 3, we'll see, but whatever. He's consistently good at getting shots inside 10 feet and hitting them well, which is a nice foundation. He's drawing fouls better this year. He looks more confident in his handle, moving east-west, slow-driving his way to the rim with change of pace and his shoulders.

Lots to be excited about.

Yeah a few weeks ago I noted how as a rookie, he was always in the high post and would either back guys down or shoot over them. We should all remember him having no fear going 1 vs 1 on Durant. And he was looking automatic.

Then the last few years it looks like the plan was to develop his game further away from the basket. And that's fine, I just wish they didn't forget about how great he looked at the top of the left key. Sprinkle more of that into his game by game reps and have IQ, Gradey, Walter, RJ, Ochai as kick out options for 3 when a double comes.

[tsherkin]

I just wish they didn't forget about how great he looked at the top of the left key. Sprinkle more of that into his game by game reps and have IQ, Gradey, Walter, RJ, Ochai as kick out options for 3 when a double comes.

He's improved as a playmaker, so there's that. And he seems to do well when he drives deep and then pivots into the lane for the hook from the right side. But yeah, a couple more sets where he's left elbow/high post would be really nice, especially with spacing. It's essentially mirror-imaging Dirk. Not that he's the same, but like, a viable strategy.

[Scase]

Regardless of whether he has "it" or not, it would have been better to had found out earlier instead of after giving him a 40+ mil extension.

Eh, he got a rookie max extension, he made an ASG and has been flirting with triple doubles constantly, that's getting you a max extension whether or not you have "it". If he can put up 20/8/9 on decent efficiency and the high level of defence he plays, that's not a bad contract at all.

Besides, there is no way he wasn't getting that extension.

[manjusaka]

Regardless of whether he has "it" or not, it would have been better to had found out earlier instead of after giving him a 40+ mil extension.

Siakam just got a max this summer, personally I think Scottie’s(when healthy) impact on the game is already on par with Siakam today. So the extension is a no brainer.

He is working hard on the jumper, can’t wait for him to master that mid-range turnaround he is showing constantly this year.

[Tacoma]

he was giving us this last season

i want to see a jump in scoring like cade/franz.

even looking at advanced stats like BPM and VORP - franz and cade are clearing him

forgot to bring up sengun too who was from the same draft class

seems like everyones breaking out except scottie.

part of it is injuries (and we haven't provided him enough spacing) but i really hope he has a stronger 2nd half of the season

I think it's moreso that Scottie has broken out before anyone else did. Now they're all caught up and he hasn't progressed. They're all roughly on the same tier within their respective roles: definite contributors on winning teams with significant holes. That's the rizz Carlito.

Agree they're all roughly in the same tier and you can add Mobley to the list as well and Suggs too for his All-NBA Defense. And it's so close that if they were ranked, there'd be a different ranking depending on point in time.

But there's the matter of expectations and Raptors fans are relying on Barnes to become a cornerstone player which can't be said for Franz or Mobley, for example. So the expectation (or more so hope) is for Barnes to clearly step out ahead of others on the list this year and not only has it not happened (yet) but he may now be falling behind Franz, Mobly and Cade.

That's where I think the concern or oblique criticism is coming from and while we can continue to be optimistic about his growth, it's looking more like Barnes will become a really good player, occasional all star, but not cornerstone ceiling. Hence the need to tank to draft that player becomes greater.

[Raps in 4]

Yeah Cade is looking like the better prospect definitively now. Bummer! He went #1 overall for a reason.

How is he the better prospect?

Scottie was a significantly better player last season than Cade is this season. Scottie's production is down significantly from last season, while Cade is having his best season (and he's producing at essentially the same level as Scottie, during a down year).

Franz is certainly a much better prospect than Scottie (he's the best player from that draft class, by a wide margin). You could make a case for Sengun and Mobley as well. But Cade has shown absolutely nothing to get excited about.

Masai got outplayed by his former protege here. But then, Weltman thought Suggs would be a better player than Franz, so we can't give him too much credit either.

[Raps in 4]

Regardless of whether he has "it" or not, it would have been better to had found out earlier instead of after giving him a 40+ mil extension.

His production is way down from last season. Either he regressed or the injuries this season have affected his performance.

I think the latter explanation is far more likely. The dude has missed almost half of the games played so far, and in the games he has played, he's done so with a bloodshot eye and glasses on.

[wegotthabeet]

Yeah Cade is looking like the better prospect definitively now. Bummer! He went #1 overall for a reason.

How is he the better prospect?

Scottie was a significantly better player last season than Cade is this season. Scottie's production is down significantly from last season, while Cade is having his best season (and he's producing at essentially the same level as Scottie, during a down year).

Franz is a significantly better prospect than Scottie (he's the best player from that draft class, by a wide margin). You could make a case for Sengun and Mobley as well. But Cade has shown absolutely nothing to get excited about.

Masai got outplayed by his former protege here. But then, Weltman thought Suggs would be a better player than Franz, so we can't give him too much credit either.

No he isn’t. Don’t fall victim to recency bias.

[SFour]

Regardless of whether he has "it" or not, it would have been better to had found out earlier instead of after giving him a 40+ mil extension.

he's still worth the contract...this franchise would be a lot more hopeless if we didn't have Barnes.

[tsherkin]

Regardless of whether he has "it" or not, it would have been better to had found out earlier instead of after giving him a 40+ mil extension.

he's still worth the contract...this franchise would be a lot more hopeless if we didn't have Barnes.

He isn't wrong, it would be nice to have known what his realized potential would be before locking in.

That said, he's still a guy with a versatile toolkit who does a lot for us. He has some hope of becoming a worthwhile volume scorer still, and he has made visible strides in a number of important areas. They key is gonna be keeping him healthy and keeping a reasonable team around him to maximize what he does do well.

[SFour]

Regardless of whether he has "it" or not, it would have been better to had found out earlier instead of after giving him a 40+ mil extension.

he's still worth the contract...this franchise would be a lot more hopeless if we didn't have Barnes.

He isn't wrong, it would be nice to have known what his realized potential would be before locking in.

That said, he's still a guy with a versatile toolkit who does a lot for us. He has some hope of becoming a worthwhile volume scorer still, and he has made visible strides in a number of important areas. They key is gonna be keeping him healthy and keeping a reasonable team around him to maximize what he does do well.

I think he'd be getting the same contract even knowing what we know today. I agree his health will be the key, if he can't stay healthy then it turns into a bad contract.

[AbC?]

Let Scottie be Scottie. Comparing him to Franz, or say IDK, Jalen Williams, is just not fair to him.

[Naysorn]

Let Scottie be Scottie. Comparing him to Franz, or say IDK, Jalen Williams, is just not fair to him.

why not?

franz was #8 in the 2021 draft, scottie was #4

[RoteSchroder]

I read your post, just strongly disagree with your take. I actually think he's the most underrated player of the past 25 years.

Where’s your evidence, no one cares about how you feel. All evidence suggests he’s an overrated bum. Can’t generate any offense without Steph or Klay. Even his own coach called him a terrible meaningless game player.

I like how you think you know more than someone who literally played on GSW. Come back with evidence please. “My take” is literally comments from other players, factual numbers and events that already happened.

I remember counting at least 7 fouls in the first half of a Raptors game a few years ago. Tell me why you think a player who’s allowed to foul to no ends is not overrated. I’m waiting.

It's Christmas. I have a family. I'll take to the GB in a couple of weeks when I have more free time. Enjoy your holidays.

Come back with evidence, not "the GB". I'll be impressed if you can go over a few games and track every defensive possession, for example.

I'm working over the holidays

[Scase]

Regardless of whether he has "it" or not, it would have been better to had found out earlier instead of after giving him a 40+ mil extension.

he's still worth the contract...this franchise would be a lot more hopeless if we didn't have Barnes.

He isn't wrong, it would be nice to have known what his realized potential would be before locking in.

That said, he's still a guy with a versatile toolkit who does a lot for us. He has some hope of becoming a worthwhile volume scorer still, and he has made visible strides in a number of important areas. They key is gonna be keeping him healthy and keeping a reasonable team around him to maximize what he does do well.

Eh, it or not it, he's still worth that contract based on what we've seen, that's the cost of talent in that tier, not to mention you are paying for youth and the hope/expectation of another step being taken. All in all, his is not a contract I would be complaining about on our team.

[Raps in 4]

Let Scottie be Scottie. Comparing him to Franz, or say IDK, Jalen Williams, is just not fair to him.

why not?

franz was #8 in the 2021 draft, scottie was #4

Franz is miles ahead of anyone else from that draft class right now. 7 teams passed on him, including his own team the first time around.

I don't think anyone had him becoming a top-10 player back then. It happens. You won't always pick the best player in the draft.

[Psubs]

Let Scottie be Scottie. Comparing him to Franz, or say IDK, Jalen Williams, is just not fair to him.

why not?

franz was #8 in the 2021 draft, scottie was #4

Franz is miles ahead of anyone else from that draft class right now. 7 teams passed on him, including his own team the first time around.

I don't think anyone had him becoming a top-10 player back then. It happens. You won't always pick the best player in the draft.

I was probably the biggest proponent of Franz on here. I saw his floor as being Detlef Schremp.