Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[wegotthabeet]

Where’s your evidence, no one cares about how you feel. All evidence suggests he’s an overrated bum. Can’t generate any offense without Steph or Klay. Even his own coach called him a terrible meaningless game player.

I like how you think you know more than someone who literally played on GSW. Come back with evidence please. “My take” is literally comments from other players, factual numbers and events that already happened.

I remember counting at least 7 fouls in the first half of a Raptors game a few years ago. Tell me why you think a player who’s allowed to foul to no ends is not overrated. I’m waiting.

It's Christmas. I have a family. I'll take to the GB in a couple of weeks when I have more free time. Enjoy your holidays.

Come back with evidence, not "the GB". I'll be impressed if you can go over a few games and track every defensive possession, for example.

I'm working over the holidays

You work?

[RoteSchroder]

It's Christmas. I have a family. I'll take to the GB in a couple of weeks when I have more free time. Enjoy your holidays.

Come back with evidence, not "the GB". I'll be impressed if you can go over a few games and track every defensive possession, for example.

I'm working over the holidays

You work?

Yeah, otherwise I wouldn’t be online, work is where you slack off, not during family time.

Btw Draymond getting backlash again:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2426158

[Tripod]

On the end, Barnes is:

4th in PPG
4th in reb
2nd in assist

...this year from his draft class. And has done so playing with a broken face and then a bad ankle. He has lots he can get better at but man some people's expectations are too high.

[tsherkin]

he's still worth the contract...this franchise would be a lot more hopeless if we didn't have Barnes.

He isn't wrong, it would be nice to have known what his realized potential would be before locking in.

That said, he's still a guy with a versatile toolkit who does a lot for us. He has some hope of becoming a worthwhile volume scorer still, and he has made visible strides in a number of important areas. They key is gonna be keeping him healthy and keeping a reasonable team around him to maximize what he does do well.

Eh, it or not it, he's still worth that contract based on what we've seen, that's the cost of talent in that tier, not to mention you are paying for youth and the hope/expectation of another step being taken. All in all, his is not a contract I would be complaining about on our team.

Yeah, I mean, I said "it would be nice," not "it's a huge problem."

[tsherkin]

On the end, Barnes is:

4th in PPG
4th in reb
2nd in assist

...this year from his draft class. And has done so playing with a broken face and then a bad ankle. He has lots he can get better at but man some people's expectations are too high.

I think the expected role plays into what people want. Right? Like, the scoring load is a big deal, and if he can't score efficiently, that puts a significant ceiling on what we can expect from him in terms of impact. That's a historical truth. That said, it's so important to actually see what he's doing, because he's doing a lot of what people were asking for. Improved handle, little bit more foul line mid-range J, more aggressive. We've seen some games where he's really able to bull to the rim. More PnR, improved handle, playing some in what is technically the 4 slot, etc. Like, lots of stuff. And then being sensitive to the context around Scottie as much as, say, the context around RJ. Neither of these guys are tier 1 stars, and that's fine. It just means we need to be more aware of how they're being deployed in any given game. And, in Scottie's case, what his health is like, and how small his in-season sample is right now and how much a single game could change that.

To whit, Scottie's averaging 19.6 ppg on 53.4% TS. That blows, we know this. But he's played 17 games, and in 2 games, could be over 61% TS. I did a little rude math. 26 points on 18 shots with 6 FTAs and then 30 points on 20 shots with 10 free throws. Not impossible games for him, and those would take him to 61.5% TS. It's still so early for him, and he's showing us signs. And he's still killing it on his short game, and doing a good job with the middie. If he picks up his 3pt shooting into the low 30s and just starts getting to the rim a bit more, it's not out of reach. I mean, I don't think Scottie's gonna be a 61% TS guy, that's not the point, but he could be league-average this year without tooooo much change. We just need his eyes to be healthy and his shot to come back a bit, small things.

[wegotthabeet]

Come back with evidence, not "the GB". I'll be impressed if you can go over a few games and track every defensive possession, for example.

I'm working over the holidays

You work?

Yeah, otherwise I wouldn’t be online, work is where you slack off, not during family time.

Btw Draymond getting backlash again:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2426158

You have a family?

[Tripod]

On the end, Barnes is:

4th in PPG
4th in reb
2nd in assist

...this year from his draft class. And has done so playing with a broken face and then a bad ankle. He has lots he can get better at but man some people's expectations are too high.

I think the expected role plays into what people want. Right? Like, the scoring load is a big deal, and if he can't score efficiently, that puts a significant ceiling on what we can expect from him in terms of impact. That's a historical truth. That said, it's so important to actually see what he's doing, because he's doing a lot of what people were asking for. Improved handle, little bit more foul line mid-range J, more aggressive. We've seen some games where he's really able to bull to the rim. More PnR, improved handle, playing some in what is technically the 4 slot, etc. Like, lots of stuff. And then being sensitive to the context around Scottie as much as, say, the context around RJ. Neither of these guys are tier 1 stars, and that's fine. It just means we need to be more aware of how they're being deployed in any given game. And, in Scottie's case, what his health is like, and how small his in-season sample is right now and how much a single game could change that.

To whit, Scottie's averaging 19.6 ppg on 53.4% TS. That blows, we know this. But he's played 17 games, and in 2 games, could be over 61% TS. I did a little rude math. 26 points on 18 shots with 6 FTAs and then 30 points on 20 shots with 10 free throws. Not impossible games for him, and those would take him to 61.5% TS. It's still so early for him, and he's showing us signs. And he's still killing it on his short game, and doing a good job with the middie. If he picks up his 3pt shooting into the low 30s and just starts getting to the rim a bit more, it's not out of reach. I mean, I don't think Scottie's gonna be a 61% TS guy, that's not the point, but he could be league-average this year without tooooo much change. We just need his eyes to be healthy and his shot to come back a bit, small things.

Yeah without doing the math, it's clear 2 games are really dragging down his numbers. The Cavs game to start the season and the Rockets game. A combined 5 of 29 and 0-10 from 3.

But as you said, given he has played so few games, they impact his overall scoring stats much higher.

For me, I am not worried as I don't view him as scorer anyway. And I think he is quite fine sacrificing his own pts to get others easy buckets...or at least looks. He has so many games where guys miss open buckets he creates for them. But again, all part of development.

I have always viewed him as our Lowry. A connecter who is the 2nd most important guy on a championship team despite being regularly 2nd-4th in scoring on any given night. But also someone who can take over a game with the ball in his hands...scoring if need be...but overall gameplay being his true difference.

[tsherkin]

Yeah without doing the math, it's clear 2 games are really dragging down his numbers. The Cavs game to start the season and the Rockets game. A combined 5 of 29 and 0-10 from 3.

But as you said, given he has played so few games, they impact his overall scoring stats much higher.

Yeah, he's missed like a dozen games, so it's not a trivial chunk of an already short sample, right?

For me, I am not worried as I don't view him as scorer anyway. And I think he is quite fine sacrificing his own pts to get others easy buckets...or at least looks. He has so many games where guys miss open buckets he creates for them. But again, all part of development.

I don't think we need or want him to be a huge volume guy... but when you're restricting volume, your efficiency does need to go up. It cannot be below league average.

I have always viewed him as our Lowry. A connecter who is the 2nd most important guy on a championship team despite being regularly 2nd-4th in scoring on any given night. But also someone who can take over a game with the ball in his hands...scoring if need be...but overall gameplay being his true difference.

Yeah, but for that to work, we need a Kawhi, right? That's a later problem, for sure, but it is necessary for a title with that level of player. Wherefore the concern.

But, if we operate under the idea that he's a versatile #2 who is improving and all that, then we should be very, very happy with him. And looking forward to the remainder of the season.

[Scase]

He isn't wrong, it would be nice to have known what his realized potential would be before locking in.

That said, he's still a guy with a versatile toolkit who does a lot for us. He has some hope of becoming a worthwhile volume scorer still, and he has made visible strides in a number of important areas. They key is gonna be keeping him healthy and keeping a reasonable team around him to maximize what he does do well.

Eh, it or not it, he's still worth that contract based on what we've seen, that's the cost of talent in that tier, not to mention you are paying for youth and the hope/expectation of another step being taken. All in all, his is not a contract I would be complaining about on our team.

Yeah, I mean, I said "it would be nice," not "it's a huge problem."

That's me doing my best unintentional job of "I'm agreeing with you, but wording it poorly"

[tsherkin]

Eh, it or not it, he's still worth that contract based on what we've seen, that's the cost of talent in that tier, not to mention you are paying for youth and the hope/expectation of another step being taken. All in all, his is not a contract I would be complaining about on our team.

Yeah, I mean, I said "it would be nice," not "it's a huge problem."

That's me doing my best unintentional job of "I'm agreeing with you, but wording it poorly"

And my customary "missing the point and sounding like an ass," it seems.

My bad xD

[Vampirate]

Yeah, I mean, I said "it would be nice," not "it's a huge problem."

That's me doing my best unintentional job of "I'm agreeing with you, but wording it poorly"

And my customary "missing the point and sounding like an ass," it seems.

My bad xD

Here's a question for you (and anyone) how many games is enough of a sample size with Barnes, both positively and negatively? He's at 17 currently.

How much should be explained from injuries?

[tsherkin]

Here's a question for you (and anyone) how many games is enough of a sample size with Barnes, both positively and negatively? He's at 17 currently.

How much should be explained from injuries?

That's a good question. I'm very hesitant to look at particulars under 40 games as a general rule of thumb, and then you have to consider how significantly they deviate from the last coupe of seasons. Shooting percentage versus FT percentage. Proportion of volume, etc. I don't know that I could give you a specific number for Barnes because I don't think there's a fixed bracket to stuff it in, it'll depend heavily on what he's doing.

If he shoots 40% for 20 games, I'll generally call BS. He isn't that kind of FT shooter or perimeter shooter in general and he isn't spamming from the corner on assisted shots, he's taking unassisted, above-break 3s, right? The least-efficient 3s in the game. Now, he's working on it, and that's fine, and if he's shooting 35-37% over 30 or 40 games, it's worth noting, as it was last year... although again, last year, he shot well for 28 games and then fell off a cliff again for an equal period before he was shut down. So, hard to tell.

But right now, I'm not really looking at his specific numbers. Short sample, very volatile. Looks good on the court, so I'm just waiting and hoping to see if he can get some consistency with health. And, of course, the roster around him. As with Barrett, Scottie is far more dependent upon his peripheral cast for his own performance than is an actual superstar-level player, right? So when we're evaluating him, we need to be cognizant of if Gradey and RJ are there, if Quick is there, Olynyk, etc. Are we spacing for him? Are we taking some of the playmaking and volume scoring pressure off? Etc.


Long-winded answer, as is my custom. The short version is "it depends on a lot of different stuff. Just gotta be patient this year."

EDIT: If you mean more broadly, then I've got about 2 seasons of patience after this one. And then, I'll be about done with hoping for a higher ceiling.

[RoteSchroder]

You work?

Yeah, otherwise I wouldn’t be online, work is where you slack off, not during family time.

Btw Draymond getting backlash again:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2426158

You have a family?

I like how you lost the argument, so you just resort to trolling. It's not that big of a deal. My mind can be changed with evidence, unlike yours.

[Reeko]

We've got a special player on our hands.

[HiJiNX]

We've got a special player on our hands.

It looked like he had a bad game yet his stat line was still good.

[anotherhomer]

We've got a special player on our hands.

can you elaborate?

I watch part of 1Q and saw barnes hit that mid-range along with the 3, which looked good

[AbC?]

We've got a special player on our hands.

It looked like he had a bad game yet his stat line was still good.

It's called padding your stats in garbage time.

[Appostis]

Since his ankle injury he hasn't been playing like a all-star.

[Tripod]

We've got a special player on our hands.

It looked like he had a bad game yet his stat line was still good.

Stat line was fine, but he isn't looking like himself at all. He is avoiding jumping for rebounds and blocks that he usually would go after.

And if you watch him run, he is doing so with a limp still. He has no bounce from that foot.

[HiJiNX]

We've got a special player on our hands.

It looked like he had a bad game yet his stat line was still good.

Stat line was fine, but he isn't looking like himself at all. He is avoiding jumping for rebounds and blocks that he usually would go after.

And if you watch him run, he is doing so with a limp still. He has no bounce from that foot.

Absolutely. He looks nothing like the guy who could sometimes be the best player on the floor. Lately he’s looked like a role player. Can’t wait until he’s healthy again.