Is it time for Randle to the Mavs?

[Mavrelous]

I love watching DAL play. During the Christmas game, I commented how fun it is to see the energy of PJ, Gafford and Lively, and that energy was instrumental to the Mavs beating the tired and injured Wolves in the WCF last season.

However, I think these guys tend to get over-valued on the trade boards because they have fit advantages that wouldn’t necessarily transfer over to a new team. With Luka and Kyrie on the floor, two of the best in the NBA at drawing defenses to them, it can create a lot of open looks for the complimentary players. We have already seen what PJ and Gafford look like on less talented teams.

If I’m the Mavs GM, I actually look to trade one of them. See if you can get another GM to salivate over how good they’ve looked on the Mavs. Maybe get a couple of decent young players (including a scorer), who could also get a big bump if they got to play in the DAL system with Kyrie and eventually Luka.

I wouldn't lump Gafford with Lively and PJ, Lively and PJ will be very expensive to get and hard to replace if moved, Gafford is a low end starter more suitable as backup, I don't think he's overvalued, he's a positive asset but not worth anything premium.
I don't think DAL GM should entertain messing with these 2 spots, it's a 20+ net rating lineup with 104 DRTG, mainly because of these 2.

[schaffy]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/luka-doncic-injury-update-mavericks-star-expected-to-miss-at-least-a-month-with-calf-strain-per-report/amp/

Not being reevaluated for four weeks suggests out longer (ramp up, restricted practice, ect…) Dallas is likely going to need to play without Luka until the deadline. That begs the question, what players if any are they willing to move and for what? I could see a 3 team deal making the Wolves and Mavs better. I could see DDV on the Mavs and starting at the SG in the role Klay was supposed to play. Randle bridging the scoring until Luka is back and then finding a role as a sixth man if Dallas has the stones to use him that way (we don’t and it pisses me off.) If you don’t like Portland there are other 3rd teams that have room and some interesting pieces. That said, the more you get from the Wolves the more it costs Dallas. I could see the Wolves being interested in PJ and Lively, and with a lot of young talent on the rise on the Wolves we can work things out for all 3 teams to win.

You could see Dallas giving up Lively & PJ to your favorite team? Awesome

PJ was in the original deal I am responding to. Lively for DDV is on point. You get a terrific value deal (one of the best contracts in the NBA, especially starting with Kyrie and Luka,) and we get the C to replace Rudy when he ages out. Honestly take PJ and JR out of it for a minute, do you disagree with the relative value of DDV and Lively?

As a wolves fan, yes. Lively is worth more. He is 20 with still 2 full years on a rookie deal.

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[Texas Chuck]

I love watching DAL play. During the Christmas game, I commented how fun it is to see the energy of PJ, Gafford and Lively, and that energy was instrumental to the Mavs beating the tired and injured Wolves in the WCF last season.

However, I think these guys tend to get over-valued on the trade boards because they have fit advantages that wouldn’t necessarily transfer over to a new team..

This is curious. I don't actually see any deals involving Gafford, PJ, or Lively on the board. Dallas posters saying they would rather have PJ than Randle due to fit or Lively over DDV for a myriad of reasons, and yes including value isn't them overvaluing their players is it?

What values have you seen assigned to those players on this board since they have been Mavericks?

And for the record I'm open to a Gafford deal if it makes sense. But with a current need for offense, not sure he should be shopped. Dude is a bucket. With the added benefit of being good enough defensively as your 2nd string center.

[winforlose]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/luka-doncic-injury-update-mavericks-star-expected-to-miss-at-least-a-month-with-calf-strain-per-report/amp/

Not being reevaluated for four weeks suggests out longer (ramp up, restricted practice, ect…) Dallas is likely going to need to play without Luka until the deadline. That begs the question, what players if any are they willing to move and for what? I could see a 3 team deal making the Wolves and Mavs better. I could see DDV on the Mavs and starting at the SG in the role Klay was supposed to play. Randle bridging the scoring until Luka is back and then finding a role as a sixth man if Dallas has the stones to use him that way (we don’t and it pisses me off.) If you don’t like Portland there are other 3rd teams that have room and some interesting pieces. That said, the more you get from the Wolves the more it costs Dallas. I could see the Wolves being interested in PJ and Lively, and with a lot of young talent on the rise on the Wolves we can work things out for all 3 teams to win.

You know who has a better contract than DDV? Lively. Cheaper and with restricted rights at the end. Confused why you are citing contract as a reason to increase DDV's value compared to him.

Also Dallas is stuck with Klay. Forget value where we all agree DDV represents better value(assuming a return to form), how much better does Dallas get on court replacing Klay with DDV? Maybe half a win over a course of the season?

It just doesn't make sense for Dallas mate. PJ fits way better than Randle and Dallas has no replacement for what he brings. And Klay means there is no pressing need for DDV if the cost for what is at best is a marginal upgrade is their best defensive player who fits perfectly with Luka and is 20 years old.

Obviously any deal bringing DDV in brings Klay out. Klay doesn’t play defense and is at best a 6th man (when his shot isn’t falling is he even rotation worthy?) DDV is a plus defender and contributes to rebounding.

The goal of the thread as I understand it was to bring in scoring help for Kyrie that can play with Luka when he gets back. DDV as a catch and shoot 3 and D is elite. Klay is more washed and inconsistent (again with defensive liability.) You don’t get high volume 3 point shooters who play defense without giving something of value up, especially if they are on a value deal. Your logical counter should be that DDV is struggling this year and that lowers his value. My response is when he allowed to play catch and shoot he is finding his rhythm and his scoring is getting back to last years levels. When used correctly he is a better version of what you sought when you got Klay. You want to say the valuation is off, counter offer. You want to say that DDV is a bad fit with Kyrie and Luka make the argument. As for Dallas replacing Lively you already have Gafford and obviously more players are moving in a trade like this, so a downgraded C replacing Lively for an upgraded SG is the nature of the beast in this suggestion.

[Texas Chuck]

And just to set one poster's values on them...Now this is not a return Dallas would be interested in, just trying to use a universal value...

Gafford: lotto protected 1st, maybe Dallas kicks back a 2nd if its from a team more likely to pick in the teens than the 20s.
Washington: lotto protected 1st, maybe it declines to top 10 if not conveyed right away
Lively: top 4 protected pick. He shouldn't return a shot at a franchise player, but beyond that more protections feels wrong.

[jayjaysee]

Yeah, definitely wouldn’t lump Gafford with the other two.

But IMO Dallas shouldn’t move the other two unless they are for upgrades in their roles, with Dallas adding value. Which most contenders would feel that way.

[Texas Chuck]

Obviously any deal bringing DDV in brings Klay out. Klay doesn’t play defense and is at best a 6th man (when his shot isn’t falling is he even rotation worthy?) DDV is a plus defender and contributes to rebounding.

The goal of the thread as I understand it was to bring in scoring help for Kyrie that can play with Luka when he gets back. DDV as a catch and shoot 3 and D is elite. Klay is more washed and inconsistent (again with defensive liability.) You don’t get high volume 3 point shooters who play defense without giving something of value up, especially if they are on a value deal. Your logical counter should be that DDV is struggling this year and that lowers his value. My response is when he allowed to play catch and shoot he is finding his rhythm and his scoring is getting back to last years levels. When used correctly he is a better version of what you sought when you got Klay. You want to say the valuation is off, counter offer. You want to say that DDV is a bad fit with Kyrie and Luka make the argument. As for Dallas replacing Lively you already have Gafford and obviously more players are moving in a trade like this, so a downgraded C replacing Lively for an upgraded SG is the nature of the beast in this suggestion.

Klay is starting on a good team right now.... And you are asking if he even belongs in a rotation? And no DDV is not an elite player.,

Your view on Wolves players is super high and your value on other teams players is super low. This bridge can not be crossed.

The upgrade of Klay to DDV is minor. The loss of Lively is huge. The move from PJ to Randle doesn't make sense from a roster standpoint.

DDV is doing huge lifting for Dallas to trade their two best defensive players for an offensive player they don't need just to upgrade Klay to him.

Nobody else on this board is going to agree with you this is good for Dallas. Let this one die.

I don't have a counter because I don't want Randle and I wouldn't pay the cost to turn Klay into DDV because the on court difference is far less than the trade value difference because Klay is seen as a terrible contract and DDV a great one. So I don't want to pay the trade value to win .5 more games. It would be terrible asset management.

[shrink]

I love watching DAL play. During the Christmas game, I commented how fun it is to see the energy of PJ, Gafford and Lively, and that energy was instrumental to the Mavs beating the tired and injured Wolves in the WCF last season.

However, I think these guys tend to get over-valued on the trade boards because they have fit advantages that wouldn’t necessarily transfer over to a new team..

This is curious. I don't actually see any deals involving Gafford, PJ, or Lively on the board. Dallas posters saying they would rather have PJ than Randle due to fit or Lively over DDV for a myriad of reasons, and yes including value isn't them overvaluing their players is it?

What values have you seen assigned to those players on this board since they have been Mavericks?

And for the record I'm open to a Gafford deal if it makes sense. But with a current need for offense, not sure he should be shopped. Dude is a bucket. With the added benefit of being good enough defensively as your 2nd string center.

I may have been influenced by listening to the Dunc’d On podcast yesterday, “10 Best Players Under 23.” I kind of expected some mention of Lively because he gets treated pretty highly on the trade boards as his value has risen from his original pick. He didn’t make the top ten, despite having zero nominees from the last draft class. And their ratings include upside.

What I’m saying here, albeit not very well, if that Gafford, PJ and Lively are excellent fits in DAL, and teams rarely trade away well-fitting players. They are worth more to them than others, and likely why we don’t see a lot of deals including them. However, I think their trade value has risen, and part of this is because they get to play with superstars like Luka and Kyrie. I think this is a rare case where they could cash some of that trade value, and find a replacement that would also quickly grow to fit next to those two.

[winforlose]

Obviously any deal bringing DDV in brings Klay out. Klay doesn’t play defense and is at best a 6th man (when his shot isn’t falling is he even rotation worthy?) DDV is a plus defender and contributes to rebounding.

The goal of the thread as I understand it was to bring in scoring help for Kyrie that can play with Luka when he gets back. DDV as a catch and shoot 3 and D is elite. Klay is more washed and inconsistent (again with defensive liability.) You don’t get high volume 3 point shooters who play defense without giving something of value up, especially if they are on a value deal. Your logical counter should be that DDV is struggling this year and that lowers his value. My response is when he allowed to play catch and shoot he is finding his rhythm and his scoring is getting back to last years levels. When used correctly he is a better version of what you sought when you got Klay. You want to say the valuation is off, counter offer. You want to say that DDV is a bad fit with Kyrie and Luka make the argument. As for Dallas replacing Lively you already have Gafford and obviously more players are moving in a trade like this, so a downgraded C replacing Lively for an upgraded SG is the nature of the beast in this suggestion.

Klay is starting on a good team right now.... And you are asking if he even belongs in a rotation? And no DDV is not an elite player.,

Your view on Wolves players is super high and your value on other teams players is super low. This bridge can not be crossed.

The upgrade of Klay to DDV is minor. The loss of Lively is huge. The move from PJ to Randle doesn't make sense from a roster standpoint.

DDV is doing huge lifting for Dallas to trade their two best defensive players for an offensive player they don't need just to upgrade Klay to him.

Nobody else on this board is going to agree with you this is good for Dallas. Let this one die.

I don't have a counter because I don't want Randle and I wouldn't pay the cost to turn Klay into DDV because the on court difference is far less than the trade value difference because Klay is seen as a terrible contract and DDV a great one. So I don't want to pay the trade value to win .5 more games. It would be terrible asset management.

Klay is 34, his defensive rating is 114.2 which is actually improved from his 117.8 with GSW last year. His role is entirely offensive, (the above question was if his shot isn’t falling is he rotation worthy?) DDV is 27, DDV has a defensive rating of 109.1 which is improved from his rating of 113.2 last year with NYK. Yes DR is a team stat, but remember Minnesota has been struggling while Dallas is much more on track. DDV also plays a lot of minutes without Rudy Gobert and with Julius Randle. I will grant you that the failed DDV at the PG experiment has depressed DDV’s numbers. That said you really think the difference between the two is .5 wins?

[Texas Chuck]

yep. Very few players swing expected wins much at all. A DDV shooting much worse than Klay isn't one of them. A DDV shooting back to career norms isn't one of them.

I mean you seriously believe he is so much better than Klay Thompson that Dallas should give up their starting center and PF both of whom are the most important defensive players on the team? You can't seriously believe DDV is this level of player. He has never been this level of player and for all your well what if Klay Thompson of all people stops being able to shoot, DDV is actually shooting poorly this year. I understand that's sample size and I understand he gets better shots in Dallas so I'm not overly concerned, but it shows you aren't really arguing in good faith.

And you are going to cite individual defensive rating as your justification. This is so silly. This would be like me pointing out that Lively's offensive rating is 138 so he must be an elite offensive player.

Spoiler:

He is not an an elite offensive player obviously.

[jayjaysee]

I love watching DAL play. During the Christmas game, I commented how fun it is to see the energy of PJ, Gafford and Lively, and that energy was instrumental to the Mavs beating the tired and injured Wolves in the WCF last season.

However, I think these guys tend to get over-valued on the trade boards because they have fit advantages that wouldn’t necessarily transfer over to a new team..

This is curious. I don't actually see any deals involving Gafford, PJ, or Lively on the board. Dallas posters saying they would rather have PJ than Randle due to fit or Lively over DDV for a myriad of reasons, and yes including value isn't them overvaluing their players is it?

What values have you seen assigned to those players on this board since they have been Mavericks?

And for the record I'm open to a Gafford deal if it makes sense. But with a current need for offense, not sure he should be shopped. Dude is a bucket. With the added benefit of being good enough defensively as your 2nd string center.

I may have been influenced by listening to the Dunc’d On podcast yesterday, “10 Best Players Under 23.” I kind of expected some mention of Lively because he gets treated pretty highly on the trade boards as his value has risen from his original pick. He didn’t make the top ten, despite having zero nominees from the last draft class. And their ratings include upside.

What I’m saying here, albeit not very well, if that Gafford, PJ and Lively are excellent fits in DAL, and teams rarely trade away well-fitting players. They are worth more to them than others, and likely why we don’t see a lot of deals including them. However, I think their trade value has risen, and part of this is because they get to play with superstars like Luka and Kyrie. I think this is a rare case where they could cash some of that trade value, and find a replacement that would also quickly grow to fit next to those two.

While I agree with that, I think the impressive thing for Lively is his defense not his offense? And then the argument about Luka and Kyrie being in front of him, impacts it a completely different way?

But to further isolate myself from Dallas fans, Lively does not really belong on that list. Look at the other names on that list, superstar level players.

Lively would have to be Rudy to belong on that list. And he’s not Rudy and probably won’t be. But he is a really good defensive big and is only 20 years old.. Can hope for development, improvement on switches, etc. but you also have a starter making pennies for another 2 full seasons. Which impacts trade value.

[Texas Chuck]

But to further isolate myself from Dallas fans, Lively does not belong on that list. Look at the other names on that list. Lively would have to be Rudy to belong on that list. And he’s not Rudy.

I'm with you. I like Lively. He fits well. He's reasonably good defensively now, I expect he will continue to get better defensively. On offense he's a good roll man and not a bad passer from the elbows. But I think his ceiling is more Tyson Chandler than Rudy Gobert.

I think he's a good trade asset, but not a great one. I think he's a good prospect, but not an elite one. Just because he was more ready to play right away than expected doesn't significantly change his ceiling. Just means Dallas gets four cheap years out of a starting center which really helps with a supermax guy and a near max guy.

[winforlose]

yep. Very few players swing expected wins much at all. A DDV shooting much worse than Klay isn't one of them. A DDV shooting back to career norms isn't one of them.

I mean you seriously believe he is so much better than Klay Thompson that Dallas should give up their starting center and PF both of whom are the most important defensive players on the team? You can't seriously believe DDV is this level of player. He has never been this level of player and for all your well what if Klay Thompson of all people stops being able to shoot, DDV is actually shooting poorly this year. I understand that's sample size and I understand he gets better shots in Dallas so I'm not overly concerned, but it shows you aren't really arguing in good faith.

And you are going to cite individual defensive rating as your justification. This is so silly. This would be like me pointing out that Lively's offensive rating is 138 so he must be an elite offensive player.

Spoiler:

He is not an an elite offensive player obviously.

It was a quick and easy way to show that Klay’s defense isn’t as good as DDVs. You really seem to value Klay, so let’s revisit this discussion in 5 weeks and see how good he looks without the gravity of Luka.

[psman2]

This is curious. I don't actually see any deals involving Gafford, PJ, or Lively on the board. Dallas posters saying they would rather have PJ than Randle due to fit or Lively over DDV for a myriad of reasons, and yes including value isn't them overvaluing their players is it?

What values have you seen assigned to those players on this board since they have been Mavericks?

And for the record I'm open to a Gafford deal if it makes sense. But with a current need for offense, not sure he should be shopped. Dude is a bucket. With the added benefit of being good enough defensively as your 2nd string center.

I may have been influenced by listening to the Dunc’d On podcast yesterday, “10 Best Players Under 23.” I kind of expected some mention of Lively because he gets treated pretty highly on the trade boards as his value has risen from his original pick. He didn’t make the top ten, despite having zero nominees from the last draft class. And their ratings include upside.

What I’m saying here, albeit not very well, if that Gafford, PJ and Lively are excellent fits in DAL, and teams rarely trade away well-fitting players. They are worth more to them than others, and likely why we don’t see a lot of deals including them. However, I think their trade value has risen, and part of this is because they get to play with superstars like Luka and Kyrie. I think this is a rare case where they could cash some of that trade value, and find a replacement that would also quickly grow to fit next to those two.

While I agree with that, I think the impressive thing for Lively is his defense not his offense? And then the argument about Luka and Kyrie being in front of him, impacts it a completely different way?

But to further isolate myself from Dallas fans, Lively does not really belong on that list. Look at the other names on that list, superstar level players.

Lively would have to be Rudy to belong on that list. But he is a really great defensive big and is only 20 years old..

Yep weird metric to try to value a player by. Since your 20 year old center cannot beat out the like of Chet, Paolo, or Barnes on a podcast list then his value is around a DDV?

[ACMFFL]

Obviously any deal bringing DDV in brings Klay out. Klay doesn’t play defense and is at best a 6th man (when his shot isn’t falling is he even rotation worthy?) DDV is a plus defender and contributes to rebounding.

The goal of the thread as I understand it was to bring in scoring help for Kyrie that can play with Luka when he gets back. DDV as a catch and shoot 3 and D is elite. Klay is more washed and inconsistent (again with defensive liability.) You don’t get high volume 3 point shooters who play defense without giving something of value up, especially if they are on a value deal. Your logical counter should be that DDV is struggling this year and that lowers his value. My response is when he allowed to play catch and shoot he is finding his rhythm and his scoring is getting back to last years levels. When used correctly he is a better version of what you sought when you got Klay. You want to say the valuation is off, counter offer. You want to say that DDV is a bad fit with Kyrie and Luka make the argument. As for Dallas replacing Lively you already have Gafford and obviously more players are moving in a trade like this, so a downgraded C replacing Lively for an upgraded SG is the nature of the beast in this suggestion.

Klay is starting on a good team right now.... And you are asking if he even belongs in a rotation? And no DDV is not an elite player.,

Your view on Wolves players is super high and your value on other teams players is super low. This bridge can not be crossed.

The upgrade of Klay to DDV is minor. The loss of Lively is huge. The move from PJ to Randle doesn't make sense from a roster standpoint.

DDV is doing huge lifting for Dallas to trade their two best defensive players for an offensive player they don't need just to upgrade Klay to him.

Nobody else on this board is going to agree with you this is good for Dallas. Let this one die.

I don't have a counter because I don't want Randle and I wouldn't pay the cost to turn Klay into DDV because the on court difference is far less than the trade value difference because Klay is seen as a terrible contract and DDV a great one. So I don't want to pay the trade value to win .5 more games. It would be terrible asset management.

Klay is 34, his defensive rating is 114.2 which is actually improved from his 117.8 with GSW last year. His role is entirely offensive, (the above question was if his shot isn’t falling is he rotation worthy?) DDV is 27, DDV has a defensive rating of 109.1 which is improved from his rating of 113.2 last year with NYK. Yes DR is a team stat, but remember Minnesota has been struggling while Dallas is much more on track. DDV also plays a lot of minutes without Rudy Gobert and with Julius Randle. I will grant you that the failed DDV at the PG experiment has depressed DDV’s numbers. That said you really think the difference between the two is .5 wins?

I dont know where did you find those numbers (per 100 poss?) but with Klay on the court Mavs have a DefRat of 109.3 (with "defensive liability" Klay off 110.6)
He's nomore elite but he's from being washed on defense, why would the Mavs even entertain the idea of moving Lively just to make a slighlty upgrade at the SG position? But anyway there is no chance they move Lively for a player of the caliber of Donte.

Sorry but the whole concept of dismantle Mavs roster just to to bring in scoring help is definitely awful.

[Texas Chuck]

I have not valued Klay at all here. I have repeatedly called him negative value. I have even conceded DDV is likely a small upgrade over him on the court.

The issue is you think the delta between DDV and Klay is Derrick Lively. And that's absurd.