Bulls @ Hawks 6:30pm CT Dec. 26 2024

[League Circles]

So if you describe the Bulls' current approach as a rebuild and you're against rebuilding, then what are you proposing that the Bulls have done? Just stand pat and bring back the same roster as last year? Because you've also made it clear that you are against tanking. So if you are against rebuilding and tanking, that seems to leave one (horrendous) option.

I don't really believe in the concept of "approaches" or "directions". I believe essentially all teams at all times should make whatever moves they believe will be most likely to bring them a title within 4 years. I think trying to plan on a longer timeframe than that is unwise.

My original comment was about the people that think the FO needs to start a rebuild (they already started), and/or those that believe a single draft pick (such as our contingent 2025 frp) is critical to the overall roster quality, and/or those who believe that it's critical that we are a bad team for the next several years so that we can (magically) be better in like 2032.

To answer your question about what they should have done, my basic thoughts are these:

Caruso-Giddey trade was good, although unlikely to yield positive results. It was worth a chance because Caruso is overrated and IMO, now on a bad contract going forward, especially if it were for us.

Patrick deal was a mistake. Should have signed him to a 1+1 (team option) deal kinda like we did with Mirotic and Jabari Parker.

Drafting Matas was good IMO.

Picking up Dalen Terry's 4th year option was a mistake.

Signing Jalen Smith without trading Vuc was probably a mistake. IMO, Smith is only a positive if he's starting, because then you have a really cheap starting C, who although he isn't very good himself, would then free up a lot of money for other positions in theory. He's too expensive to be an asset as a backup. His signing can be salvaged if we trade Vuc for expirings or something.

Can't remember if we picked up an option on Phillips but if we did, that was a mistake too.

We have a lot of OK pieces and basically only one good one (Zach). IMO, at the moment, I'd be heavily exploring deals that would land us whoever the single best player available is that would best complement Zach and Matas who is under 30 years old. Doesn't mean that there is a good deal of that description available, but it's what we should be focusing on IMO.

Keeping our draft pick is always something to consider, but is hard to predict with or without any trades, and ultimately most likely projects to not be a long term core piece anyways. So I'm not at all obsessed with it like many posters are. I'm not trying to be a good team this year, but I definitely am trying to be a good team within the next 1-3 years. We should be shopping the hell out of these guys, mostly by offering packages for an actual good player:

Vuc
Smith
Patrick
Giddey
Ayo
Coby
Ball
Terry
Carter
Phillips
Duarte
THT

If this is a rebuild then it's a half-assed one and that's the problem.

Well it's obviously not done yet. But if a "full" rebuild just means being as bad as you can until you can draft a guy that projects as a top 5 NBA player at some point, I'm not going to ever be interested in that. It's so incredibly futile and ill advised its mind boggling. The idea that there are only two possible or acceptable directions for an nba team - "win now" or "tear it to shreds" is disgustingly uninteresting to me. We've already tried the latter multiple times with a glaring lack of success.

[drosestruts]

Just a reminder that we're the 10th youngest team in the league. How much younger do people think we should be.

And if you come into every post game thread screaming to trade Zach and Vuc... for what?

The most credible rumors we have are Denver being interested in Zach for MPJ and Nnaji and Phoenix being interested in Vuc and wanting to trade Nurkic for him

I'd be worried about what MPJ looks like without Jokic and I have no interest in taking on Felicio... err I mean Nnaji. I've been saddled with a 4 year $32m contract before for an unplayable player - not excited to do it again

And Nurkic for Vuc... no thank you. Maybe if they sent picks along with it, but Suns don't have any of those

You can't make a team trade you stuff

10th youngest team with zero high lottery talent on roster makes it even worse. Nobody is screaming to get younger, everyone is screaming to get high end talent. Trade away until you have it. I dont care for Coby White being 24, when I know that with his chucking IQ low mentality and raptors arms he wont get better. I dont care for Patrick Williams being 23 when I know he is scrub and will stay that way unless he goes to play in Indonesia. Move away from losing players like Zach and Vuc. Move away from Patrick, move away from Coby White if he is not gonna stop being a chucker.

You move away and you pivot. And you pivot, pivot till you find high end talents to put your franchise on NBA floor and start winning games.

Everyone is acting like being GM is very difficult job. It's not. It's actually easy job. What hard part of job is you get all responsbility to make all decision. With Bulls in a league is one of cushiest jobs on a planet. You can sh*?** the fan and you still gonna keep it. And yet we get Dumb and Dumber edition getting AKME to run this team. This franchise go from winning championship to giving Patrick Williams 20M for 5 points per game.

EDIT: Good luck to Hawks tonight. I mean Blackhawks. Nobody cares about this game anyway.

I guess the obvious questions is how long do you give someone before you pivot?

I think players are taking longer than ever to make positive impacts in the NBA, I also feel that progress isn't always linear.

A criticism I have of the tanking strategy is you're just in an endless loop of tanking and I doubt many actually have the patience to do it.

Mikal Bridges didn't average 20 point till he was 26 years old

Jalen Bruson didn't average 20 points till he was 26, made his first all star game at 27

De'Andre Hunter, who I compared to Williams earlier in this thread, is having a breakout year at age 27

Our very own Zach LaVine earned his first all-star nod at 25, at 29 he's having his best season efficiency wise

I feel like Derrick White has blossomed as one of Boston's best and most important players at 29

Someone like Normal Powell is playing like an all-star at 31 for the first time

Lauri broke out at 25 years old

this pivot, pivot, pivot mindset is just not it for me.

Coby was 2nd in MIP last year, looks to have taken a step back this year, could take two steps forward next year - who knows.

I actually like the moves we made to grab players like Giddey and Smith. Let us benefit from others' constant pivoting.

I think there's a constant disconnect in fans evaluations of current players vs these college kids. I remain unwhelmed by this draft class. I'm not convinced someone like Dylan Harper will ever be better than someone like Coby White - he almost assuredly will never be as good as someone like Zach LaVine.

Two players many are happy to declare as not being worth holding onto.

It's great when players make an immediate impact - but even that doesn't always result in long-term success - Ben Simmons, Michael Carter Williams, Tyreke Evans

Heck you can sign the top pick from the 2017 draft right now because 7 years in, he's not even on a roster.

[CROBulls]

Well it's obviously not done yet. But if a "full" rebuild just means being as bad as you can until you can draft a guy that projects as a top 5 NBA player at some point, I'm not going to ever be interested in that. It's so incredibly futile and ill advised its mind boggling. The idea that there are only two possible or acceptable directions for an nba team - "win now" or "tear it to shreds" is disgustingly uninteresting to me. We've already tried the latter multiple times with a glaring lack of success.

We didnt try once. That's the issue. We were already doing half assed tanks getting "lowest" pick 4th and multiple years in row 7th. We never really tanked to be win a lottery or get top 3 pick. And now that we "trying to win" we gonna likely get "another 7th".

Orlando was one in similar situation as us. Trying to half ass tank for years, keeping Vuc until they didnt anymore. Where they are now? They rebuild their franchise on our pick we gave them, being really bad and getting Banchero with 1st overall.

You need to get bad. Like very bad. Bulls didnt try that once.

[League Circles]

Well it's obviously not done yet. But if a "full" rebuild just means being as bad as you can until you can draft a guy that projects as a top 5 NBA player at some point, I'm not going to ever be interested in that. It's so incredibly futile and ill advised its mind boggling. The idea that there are only two possible or acceptable directions for an nba team - "win now" or "tear it to shreds" is disgustingly uninteresting to me. We've already tried the latter multiple times with a glaring lack of success.

We didnt try once. That's the issue. We were already doing half assed tanks getting "lowest" pick 4th and multiple years in row 7th. We never really tanked to be win a lottery or get top 3 pick. And now that we "trying to win" we gonna likely get "another 7th".

Orlando was one in similar situation as us. Trying to half ass tank for years, keeping Vuc until they didnt anymore. Where they are now? They rebuild their franchise on our pick we gave them, being really bad and getting Banchero with 1st overall.

You need to get bad. Like very bad. Bulls didnt try that once.

It seems like you're totally unaware of Bulls history and of the modern history of the draft, and of the rules of the lottery.

[kodo]

With only a blue screen to watch, with 4 important players out I'd say the fourth quarter collapse was due to guys who don't play heavy mutes getting mentally tired, losing focus and not being used to coping with the game on the line. Maybe some around here should appreciate the starters for being starters because they are better and know better how to play

And because we didn’t have a PG on the court to get us organized and set up.

And because our defense was atrocious.

It's a tiny sample size, but last 15 games our top +/- players have been
Josh Giddey +4.6
Buzelis +3.6
Lonzo +1.2

All 3 were out. And Giddey has been playing good defense lately. Stats say he leads the team in def rating last 15 games. Not to say he's a good defender in a vacuum, more that most of the team is awful. Coby is in the bottom 20 in defensive EPM in the league.

[CROBulls]

It seems like you're totally unaware of Bulls history and of the modern history of the draft, and of the rules of the lottery.

I am perfectly aware of Bulls not tanking/rebuild properly. They wanted to suck but not suck enough. They never once in last 10 or so year Bulls tanked and had top 3 worst record. Yes, sometimes ping pong ball are unfair and you move down a spot or two. But Bulls actually never really went into a season to be bad enough to win a lottery.

And then as bad team, but not nowhere near bad to win a lottery they went to trade all our future picks to get Nikola Vucevic. And now we are here. Same bad team, but again nowhere near bad to win a lottery.

[Dan Z]

I don't really believe in the concept of "approaches" or "directions". I believe essentially all teams at all times should make whatever moves they believe will be most likely to bring them a title within 4 years. I think trying to plan on a longer timeframe than that is unwise.

My original comment was about the people that think the FO needs to start a rebuild (they already started), and/or those that believe a single draft pick (such as our contingent 2025 frp) is critical to the overall roster quality, and/or those who believe that it's critical that we are a bad team for the next several years so that we can (magically) be better in like 2032.

To answer your question about what they should have done, my basic thoughts are these:

Caruso-Giddey trade was good, although unlikely to yield positive results. It was worth a chance because Caruso is overrated and IMO, now on a bad contract going forward, especially if it were for us.

Patrick deal was a mistake. Should have signed him to a 1+1 (team option) deal kinda like we did with Mirotic and Jabari Parker.

Drafting Matas was good IMO.

Picking up Dalen Terry's 4th year option was a mistake.

Signing Jalen Smith without trading Vuc was probably a mistake. IMO, Smith is only a positive if he's starting, because then you have a really cheap starting C, who although he isn't very good himself, would then free up a lot of money for other positions in theory. He's too expensive to be an asset as a backup. His signing can be salvaged if we trade Vuc for expirings or something.

Can't remember if we picked up an option on Phillips but if we did, that was a mistake too.

We have a lot of OK pieces and basically only one good one (Zach). IMO, at the moment, I'd be heavily exploring deals that would land us whoever the single best player available is that would best complement Zach and Matas who is under 30 years old. Doesn't mean that there is a good deal of that description available, but it's what we should be focusing on IMO.

Keeping our draft pick is always something to consider, but is hard to predict with or without any trades, and ultimately most likely projects to not be a long term core piece anyways. So I'm not at all obsessed with it like many posters are. I'm not trying to be a good team this year, but I definitely am trying to be a good team within the next 1-3 years. We should be shopping the hell out of these guys, mostly by offering packages for an actual good player:

Vuc
Smith
Patrick
Giddey
Ayo
Coby
Ball
Terry
Carter
Phillips
Duarte
THT

If this is a rebuild then it's a half-assed one and that's the problem.

Well it's obviously not done yet. But if a "full" rebuild just means being as bad as you can until you can draft a guy that projects as a top 5 NBA player at some point, I'm not going to ever be interested in that. It's so incredibly futile and ill advised its mind boggling. The idea that there are only two possible or acceptable directions for an nba team - "win now" or "tear it to shreds" is disgustingly uninteresting to me. We've already tried the latter multiple times with a glaring lack of success.

A good GM thinks about the teams future and is willing to pivot when things aren't working. AK hasn't done that. Yes, he traded Caruso and DDR, but I think part of that is that he had no choice.

There's no point in continuing to push for the play-in and that's been the case for a few years now. Had AK decided to move in a new direction (a few years ago) then maybe the Bulls would be in a better position right now. I'm not talking about the teams record, but assets, and options, to how they can build the team going forward. For example, was Zach more valuable a few years ago? Coby was more valuable a year ago. Would picks be better than Giddey (the Carusto trade)? I think so because now they have to figure out a new contract for a flawed player (Giddey). Picks give them something to work with going forward (basically currency). Etc., Etc.

Also, keeping the 2025 pick is important because it takes time to develop a player. Might as well start on that asap. If he doesn't work out then you can decide what to do at that time.

Right now nobody on the team looks like a player who will lead the team very far.

[Dan Z]

Just a reminder that we're the 10th youngest team in the league. How much younger do people think we should be.

And if you come into every post game thread screaming to trade Zach and Vuc... for what?

The most credible rumors we have are Denver being interested in Zach for MPJ and Nnaji and Phoenix being interested in Vuc and wanting to trade Nurkic for him

I'd be worried about what MPJ looks like without Jokic and I have no interest in taking on Felicio... err I mean Nnaji. I've been saddled with a 4 year $32m contract before for an unplayable player - not excited to do it again

And Nurkic for Vuc... no thank you. Maybe if they sent picks along with it, but Suns don't have any of those

You can't make a team trade you stuff

10th youngest team with zero high lottery talent on roster makes it even worse. Nobody is screaming to get younger, everyone is screaming to get high end talent. Trade away until you have it. I dont care for Coby White being 24, when I know that with his chucking IQ low mentality and raptors arms he wont get better. I dont care for Patrick Williams being 23 when I know he is scrub and will stay that way unless he goes to play in Indonesia. Move away from losing players like Zach and Vuc. Move away from Patrick, move away from Coby White if he is not gonna stop being a chucker.

You move away and you pivot. And you pivot, pivot till you find high end talents to put your franchise on NBA floor and start winning games.

Everyone is acting like being GM is very difficult job. It's not. It's actually easy job. What hard part of job is you get all responsbility to make all decision. With Bulls in a league is one of cushiest jobs on a planet. You can sh*?** the fan and you still gonna keep it. And yet we get Dumb and Dumber edition getting AKME to run this team. This franchise go from winning championship to giving Patrick Williams 20M for 5 points per game.

EDIT: Good luck to Hawks tonight. I mean Blackhawks. Nobody cares about this game anyway.

I guess the obvious questions is how long do you give someone before you pivot?

I think players are taking longer than ever to make positive impacts in the NBA, I also feel that progress isn't always linear.

A criticism I have of the tanking strategy is you're just in an endless loop of tanking and I doubt many actually have the patience to do it.

Mikal Bridges didn't average 20 point till he was 26 years old

Jalen Bruson didn't average 20 points till he was 26, made his first all star game at 27

De'Andre Hunter, who I compared to Williams earlier in this thread, is having a breakout year at age 27

Our very own Zach LaVine earned his first all-star nod at 25, at 29 he's having his best season efficiency wise

I feel like Derrick White has blossomed as one of Boston's best and most important players at 29

Someone like Normal Powell is playing like an all-star at 31 for the first time

Lauri broke out at 25 years old

this pivot, pivot, pivot mindset is just not it for me.

Coby was 2nd in MIP last year, looks to have taken a step back this year, could take two steps forward next year - who knows.

I actually like the moves we made to grab players like Giddey and Smith. Let us benefit from others' constant pivoting.

I think there's a constant disconnect in fans evaluations of current players vs these college kids. I remain unwhelmed by this draft class. I'm not convinced someone like Dylan Harper will ever be better than someone like Coby White - he almost assuredly will never be as good as someone like Zach LaVine.

Two players many are happy to declare as not being worth holding onto.

It's great when players make an immediate impact - but even that doesn't always result in long-term success - Ben Simmons, Michael Carter Williams, Tyreke Evans

Heck you can sign the top pick from the 2017 draft right now because 7 years in, he's not even on a roster.

AK has been in charge for 5 seasons and the team has only been to the playoffs once during that time (an easy loss to Milwaukee). It'll be twice if they make it this year.

How long should they continue on this same path?

Like I said in a previous post, I think AK traded Caruso and DDR because he had to, not because he wanted too. Giddey is okay, but he's a flawed player who is up for a new contract in the off season. How much is he worth? Once he signs that deal his value will be a lot different than he currently is at 8 million.

What if he never figures out his shooting and defensive issues?

The point of the draft is to try and find the next player who is good enough to build around. Is there anyone like that on the current roster? I don't think so. Zach won't lead this team very far. Vucevic is playing well (career year), but he's 34 years old. Ayo is good, but a role player. Coby is struggling. Jalen Smith is a rotation big.

[League Circles]

If this is a rebuild then it's a half-assed one and that's the problem.

Well it's obviously not done yet. But if a "full" rebuild just means being as bad as you can until you can draft a guy that projects as a top 5 NBA player at some point, I'm not going to ever be interested in that. It's so incredibly futile and ill advised its mind boggling. The idea that there are only two possible or acceptable directions for an nba team - "win now" or "tear it to shreds" is disgustingly uninteresting to me. We've already tried the latter multiple times with a glaring lack of success.

A good GM thinks about the teams future and is willing to pivot when things aren't working. AK hasn't done that. Yes, he traded Caruso and DDR, but I think part of that is that he had no choice.

There's no point in continuing to push for the play-in and that's been the case for a few years now. Had AK decided to move in a new direction (a few years ago) then maybe the Bulls would be in a better position right now. I'm not talking about the teams record, but assets, and options, to how they can build the team going forward. For example, was Zach more valuable a few years ago? Coby was more valuable a year ago. Would picks be better than Giddey (the Carusto trade)? I think so because now they have to figure out a new contract for a flawed player (Giddey). Picks give them something to work with going forward (basically currency). Etc., Etc.

Also, keeping the 2025 pick is important because it takes time to develop a player. Might as well start on that asap. If he doesn't work out then you can decide what to do at that time.

Right now nobody on the team looks like a player who will lead the team very far.

I wasn't trying to grade or defend anything the FO has done. I honestly don't know what it means to "push" for the play-in. We're sitting vets to play BAD young players like Terry, Phillips etc. The only guys we acquired this summer were young (Matas, Giddey, Smith).

I just think it's really important to recognize that the odds that a player we draft next summer is a high level guy are quite low. As in, lower than Zach Lavine being that type of guy for the next 5 years. So if the way to ensure a top 5ish pick next summer is to trade Zach for garbage, I'm not interested, because you create one huge hole while trying to solve another. Other than Zach I'm not confident that losing anyone currently in the rotation would have a big impact on our record. So I don't think it's possible to make sure we keep that pick. So I don't stress about it.

[League Circles]

It seems like you're totally unaware of Bulls history and of the modern history of the draft, and of the rules of the lottery.

I am perfectly aware of Bulls not tanking/rebuild properly. They wanted to suck but not suck enough. They never once in last 10 or so year Bulls tanked and had top 3 worst record. Yes, sometimes ping pong ball are unfair and you move down a spot or two. But Bulls actually never really went into a season to be bad enough to win a lottery.

And then as bad team, but not nowhere near bad to win a lottery they went to trade all our future picks to get Nikola Vucevic. And now we are here. Same bad team, but again nowhere near bad to win a lottery.

Lol at drawing all your conclusions from a brief recent period of time from this team. The Bulls were the original hard tank team. They tanked hard for 4 years and got a #1, two #2s and a #4. All 4 players were drafted at pretty consensus spots. None became building blocks. Only two even became good players, neither remotely close to a franchise player on a great team.

We traded 2 picks for Nikola btw. Bad trade. In the past now.

Not sure you're really aware of the current lottery odds.

[Dan Z]

Well it's obviously not done yet. But if a "full" rebuild just means being as bad as you can until you can draft a guy that projects as a top 5 NBA player at some point, I'm not going to ever be interested in that. It's so incredibly futile and ill advised its mind boggling. The idea that there are only two possible or acceptable directions for an nba team - "win now" or "tear it to shreds" is disgustingly uninteresting to me. We've already tried the latter multiple times with a glaring lack of success.

A good GM thinks about the teams future and is willing to pivot when things aren't working. AK hasn't done that. Yes, he traded Caruso and DDR, but I think part of that is that he had no choice.

There's no point in continuing to push for the play-in and that's been the case for a few years now. Had AK decided to move in a new direction (a few years ago) then maybe the Bulls would be in a better position right now. I'm not talking about the teams record, but assets, and options, to how they can build the team going forward. For example, was Zach more valuable a few years ago? Coby was more valuable a year ago. Would picks be better than Giddey (the Carusto trade)? I think so because now they have to figure out a new contract for a flawed player (Giddey). Picks give them something to work with going forward (basically currency). Etc., Etc.

Also, keeping the 2025 pick is important because it takes time to develop a player. Might as well start on that asap. If he doesn't work out then you can decide what to do at that time.

Right now nobody on the team looks like a player who will lead the team very far.

I wasn't trying to grade or defend anything the FO has done. I honestly don't know what it means to "push" for the play-in. We're sitting vets to play BAD young players like Terry, Phillips etc. The only guys we acquired this summer were young (Matas, Giddey, Smith).

I just think it's really important to recognize that the odds that a player we draft next summer is a high level guy are quite low. As in, lower than Zach Lavine being that type of guy for the next 5 years. So if the way to ensure a top 5ish pick next summer is to trade Zach for garbage, I'm not interested, because you create one huge hole while trying to solve another. Other than Zach I'm not confident that losing anyone currently in the rotation would have a big impact on our record. So I don't think it's possible to make sure we keep that pick. So I don't stress about it.

The odds are low so let's continue being a team that ends up around 9th place...?

[League Circles]

A good GM thinks about the teams future and is willing to pivot when things aren't working. AK hasn't done that. Yes, he traded Caruso and DDR, but I think part of that is that he had no choice.

There's no point in continuing to push for the play-in and that's been the case for a few years now. Had AK decided to move in a new direction (a few years ago) then maybe the Bulls would be in a better position right now. I'm not talking about the teams record, but assets, and options, to how they can build the team going forward. For example, was Zach more valuable a few years ago? Coby was more valuable a year ago. Would picks be better than Giddey (the Carusto trade)? I think so because now they have to figure out a new contract for a flawed player (Giddey). Picks give them something to work with going forward (basically currency). Etc., Etc.

Also, keeping the 2025 pick is important because it takes time to develop a player. Might as well start on that asap. If he doesn't work out then you can decide what to do at that time.

Right now nobody on the team looks like a player who will lead the team very far.

I wasn't trying to grade or defend anything the FO has done. I honestly don't know what it means to "push" for the play-in. We're sitting vets to play BAD young players like Terry, Phillips etc. The only guys we acquired this summer were young (Matas, Giddey, Smith).

I just think it's really important to recognize that the odds that a player we draft next summer is a high level guy are quite low. As in, lower than Zach Lavine being that type of guy for the next 5 years. So if the way to ensure a top 5ish pick next summer is to trade Zach for garbage, I'm not interested, because you create one huge hole while trying to solve another. Other than Zach I'm not confident that losing anyone currently in the rotation would have a big impact on our record. So I don't think it's possible to make sure we keep that pick. So I don't stress about it.

The odds are low so let's continue being a team that ends up around 9th place...?

Keeping our pick is an outcome, not a decision. It's just not that interesting tbh. Nobody wants to remain a 9th place team. It's possible to get better or worse.

[Dan Z]

I wasn't trying to grade or defend anything the FO has done. I honestly don't know what it means to "push" for the play-in. We're sitting vets to play BAD young players like Terry, Phillips etc. The only guys we acquired this summer were young (Matas, Giddey, Smith).

I just think it's really important to recognize that the odds that a player we draft next summer is a high level guy are quite low. As in, lower than Zach Lavine being that type of guy for the next 5 years. So if the way to ensure a top 5ish pick next summer is to trade Zach for garbage, I'm not interested, because you create one huge hole while trying to solve another. Other than Zach I'm not confident that losing anyone currently in the rotation would have a big impact on our record. So I don't think it's possible to make sure we keep that pick. So I don't stress about it.

The odds are low so let's continue being a team that ends up around 9th place...?

Keeping our pick is an outcome, not a decision. It's just not that interesting tbh. Nobody wants to remain a 9th place team. It's possible to get better or worse.

How much better do you realistically think the current team can be this season?

[League Circles]

The odds are low so let's continue being a team that ends up around 9th place...?

Keeping our pick is an outcome, not a decision. It's just not that interesting tbh. Nobody wants to remain a 9th place team. It's possible to get better or worse.

How much better do you realistically think the current team can be this season?

This season? Idk, maybe a little bit. How good we could possibly be this season has no impact on what moves I may or may not want to do. Any trades I might be interested in would not be for the purpose of trying to win anything this year. They would be to potentially be a good winning team within the next 1-4 seasons.

[Dan Z]

Keeping our pick is an outcome, not a decision. It's just not that interesting tbh. Nobody wants to remain a 9th place team. It's possible to get better or worse.

How much better do you realistically think the current team can be this season?

This season? Idk, maybe a little bit. How good we could possibly be this season has no impact on what moves I may or may not want to do. Any trades I might be interested in would not be for the purpose of trying to win anything this year. They would be to potentially be a good winning team within the next 1-4 seasons.

Then why not do what you can to try and keep the pick? The Mavs did that a few years ago when they realized their season was going nowhere.

[League Circles]

How much better do you realistically think the current team can be this season?

This season? Idk, maybe a little bit. How good we could possibly be this season has no impact on what moves I may or may not want to do. Any trades I might be interested in would not be for the purpose of trying to win anything this year. They would be to potentially be a good winning team within the next 1-4 seasons.

Then why not do what you can to try and keep the pick? The Mavs did that a few years ago when they realized their season was going nowhere.

Increasing the chances of keeping our pick is one positive factor in some potential trades. But there are other pros and cons. For example I'm not trading Zach for bad players on expiring deals just to increase my chances of keeping the pick. Because to me, Zach is worth more, to us, on the court, trying to win something in the next 1-4 years, than like a #9 pick would be.

[2weekswithpay]

Just a reminder that we're the 10th youngest team in the league. How much younger do people think we should be.

And if you come into every post game thread screaming to trade Zach and Vuc... for what?

The most credible rumors we have are Denver being interested in Zach for MPJ and Nnaji and Phoenix being interested in Vuc and wanting to trade Nurkic for him

I'd be worried about what MPJ looks like without Jokic and I have no interest in taking on Felicio... err I mean Nnaji. I've been saddled with a 4 year $32m contract before for an unplayable player - not excited to do it again

And Nurkic for Vuc... no thank you. Maybe if they sent picks along with it, but Suns don't have any of those

You can't make a team trade you stuff

10th youngest team with zero high lottery talent on roster makes it even worse. Nobody is screaming to get younger, everyone is screaming to get high end talent. Trade away until you have it. I dont care for Coby White being 24, when I know that with his chucking IQ low mentality and raptors arms he wont get better. I dont care for Patrick Williams being 23 when I know he is scrub and will stay that way unless he goes to play in Indonesia. Move away from losing players like Zach and Vuc. Move away from Patrick, move away from Coby White if he is not gonna stop being a chucker.

You move away and you pivot. And you pivot, pivot till you find high end talents to put your franchise on NBA floor and start winning games.

Everyone is acting like being GM is very difficult job. It's not. It's actually easy job. What hard part of job is you get all responsbility to make all decision. With Bulls in a league is one of cushiest jobs on a planet. You can sh*?** the fan and you still gonna keep it. And yet we get Dumb and Dumber edition getting AKME to run this team. This franchise go from winning championship to giving Patrick Williams 20M for 5 points per game.

EDIT: Good luck to Hawks tonight. I mean Blackhawks. Nobody cares about this game anyway.

I guess the obvious questions is how long do you give someone before you pivot?

I think players are taking longer than ever to make positive impacts in the NBA, I also feel that progress isn't always linear.

A criticism I have of the tanking strategy is you're just in an endless loop of tanking and I doubt many actually have the patience to do it.

Mikal Bridges didn't average 20 point till he was 26 years old

Jalen Bruson didn't average 20 points till he was 26, made his first all star game at 27

De'Andre Hunter, who I compared to Williams earlier in this thread, is having a breakout year at age 27

Our very own Zach LaVine earned his first all-star nod at 25, at 29 he's having his best season efficiency wise

I feel like Derrick White has blossomed as one of Boston's best and most important players at 29

Someone like Normal Powell is playing like an all-star at 31 for the first time

Lauri broke out at 25 years old

this pivot, pivot, pivot mindset is just not it for me.

Coby was 2nd in MIP last year, looks to have taken a step back this year, could take two steps forward next year - who knows.

I actually like the moves we made to grab players like Giddey and Smith. Let us benefit from others' constant pivoting.

I think there's a constant disconnect in fans evaluations of current players vs these college kids. I remain unwhelmed by this draft class. I'm not convinced someone like Dylan Harper will ever be better than someone like Coby White - he almost assuredly will never be as good as someone like Zach LaVine.

Two players many are happy to declare as not being worth holding onto.

It's great when players make an immediate impact - but even that doesn't always result in long-term success - Ben Simmons, Michael Carter Williams, Tyreke Evans

Heck you can sign the top pick from the 2017 draft right now because 7 years in, he's not even on a roster.

It depends but normally there are signs.

Bridges was a starter on a team that went to the finals in his 3rd season at 24 years old. He's also a 3&D wing, and he never needed to average 20ppg to be a valuable player.

Brunson was a solid backup in his 3rd season and was a solid starter in his 4th season. In the first round against the Jazz, Brunson averaged 27ppg and had a 40 point game. Luka also missed the first three games of that series.

Zach likely breaks out a year earlier if not for the ACL tear. Zach also has outlier athleticism and was more productive offensively than Coby at the same age.

[Dan Z]

This season? Idk, maybe a little bit. How good we could possibly be this season has no impact on what moves I may or may not want to do. Any trades I might be interested in would not be for the purpose of trying to win anything this year. They would be to potentially be a good winning team within the next 1-4 seasons.

Then why not do what you can to try and keep the pick? The Mavs did that a few years ago when they realized their season was going nowhere.

Increasing the chances of keeping our pick is one positive factor in some potential trades. But there are other pros and cons. For example I'm not trading Zach for bad players on expiring deals just to increase my chances of keeping the pick. Because to me, Zach is worth more, to us, on the court, trying to win something in the next 1-4 years, than like a #9 pick would be.

Zach has been here 8 seasons and the team made the playoffs only one time (an easy loss to Milwaukee). Why do you think he'll be able to lead the team somewhere in the near future?

Zach's a talented player, but sometimes you need to move on. If his trade value is neutral now then it probably won't change much next year. By neutral I mean contracts that aren't bad and maybe a minor asset like a 2nd round pick. I can understand not trading him if the contracts offered are worse and will hinder the team going forward.

This year the team is going nowhere, so Id rather increase our chances in the lottery. Nobody will look back on this season and say it was a good, competitive one. Same with last season and the season before that.

[League Circles]

Then why not do what you can to try and keep the pick? The Mavs did that a few years ago when they realized their season was going nowhere.

Increasing the chances of keeping our pick is one positive factor in some potential trades. But there are other pros and cons. For example I'm not trading Zach for bad players on expiring deals just to increase my chances of keeping the pick. Because to me, Zach is worth more, to us, on the court, trying to win something in the next 1-4 years, than like a #9 pick would be.

Zach has been here 8 seasons and the team made the playoffs only one time (an easy loss to Milwaukee). Why do you think he'll be able to lead the team somewhere in the near future?

Zach's a talented player, but sometimes you need to move on. If his trade value is neutral now then it probably won't change much next year. By neutral I mean contracts that aren't bad and maybe a minor asset like a 2nd round pick. I can understand not trading him if the contracts offered are worse and will hinder the team going forward.

This year the team is going nowhere, so Id rather increase our chances in the lottery. Nobody will look back on this season and say it was a good, competitive one. Same with last season and the season before that.

I don't particularly think of Zach as a leader and he doesn't need to be to be a valuable player. IMO, he's the only player we have who isn't in need of an upgrade. Of we had 3 or 4 players as good as Zach we'd probably be pretty good. That's what I'm after. I just see Zach as a really good starter for the next 5 years. If we're lucky, Matas will be another. That's two. If we're very lucky we already have a third in somebody like Giddey, Coby, Ayo, Patrick, a re-signed Ball, or Smith (but I doubt it). So we probably need to trade for at least one really good player and get another maybe through the draft or FA. I think the concept of finding a pure #1 option guy to dominate everything successfully is unrealistic and will become outdated. I'm more about finding 4 complementary above average starters amd a 5th solid one.

[Dan Z]

Increasing the chances of keeping our pick is one positive factor in some potential trades. But there are other pros and cons. For example I'm not trading Zach for bad players on expiring deals just to increase my chances of keeping the pick. Because to me, Zach is worth more, to us, on the court, trying to win something in the next 1-4 years, than like a #9 pick would be.

Zach has been here 8 seasons and the team made the playoffs only one time (an easy loss to Milwaukee). Why do you think he'll be able to lead the team somewhere in the near future?

Zach's a talented player, but sometimes you need to move on. If his trade value is neutral now then it probably won't change much next year. By neutral I mean contracts that aren't bad and maybe a minor asset like a 2nd round pick. I can understand not trading him if the contracts offered are worse and will hinder the team going forward.

This year the team is going nowhere, so Id rather increase our chances in the lottery. Nobody will look back on this season and say it was a good, competitive one. Same with last season and the season before that.

I don't particularly think of Zach as a leader and he doesn't need to be to be a valuable player. IMO, he's the only player we have who isn't in need of an upgrade. Of we had 3 or 4 players as good as Zach we'd probably be pretty good. That's what I'm after. I just see Zach as a really good starter for the next 5 years. If we're lucky, Matas will be another. That's two. If we're very lucky we already have a third in somebody like Giddey, Coby, Ayo, Patrick, a re-signed Ball, or Smith (but I doubt it). So we probably need to trade for at least one really good player and get another maybe through the draft or FA. I think the concept of finding a pure #1 option guy to dominate everything successfully is unrealistic and will become outdated. I'm more about finding 4 complementary above average starters amd a 5th solid one.

I have no idea how the Bulls would find all those players. Most players today re-sign with their team and then ask for a trade. Plus, the Bulls don't currently have much in terms of assets.

You're also hoping that one (or more) of these players will take a leap forward: Giddey, Pat, Ayo and Coby. I think its more likely that they are who they are (because they've all been in nba for 3+ years). How many players take a big step forward after 4 years(Giddey/PW are currently in year 4)? You could say Zach did, but in his case it's because he recovered from injury. Who else? Lauri? Lauri already showed more potential then the players i mentioned above (when he was their age).

I don't think your plan is bad, but I think the players the Bulls have right now aren't working and most likely won't work in the future. I'd be ok with the Bulls if they had a deep roster of competitive players, even if that meant no superstar.