Retro Player of the Year 2000-01 UPDATE — Shaq/Duncan

[B-Mitch 30]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Ray Allen

Allen was clearly the best shooter in the NBA this season, winning the three-point contest and having the best combination of volume and efficiency from behind the line. This created spacing not seen since Reggie Miller’s prime, and gave his team the league’s best offense. In the playoffs, Milwaukee made it to the Conference Finals, before losing to the Sixers in a series that was infamous for having a lopsided number of fouls called on the Bucks. While I don’t think this was some conspiracy to keep the Bucks out of the Finals, the facts are that if the refereeing was better, Ray would have faced the Lakers.

2. Shaquille O’Neal

Shaq wasn’t as dominant in the regular season as last year, but the Lakers still had the second best offense, before going on the greatest playoff run until the 2017 Warriors, only losing a single game. This was despite the team losing a lot of its best role players in 2000, and Kobe and Derek Fisher missing significant time.

3. Tim Duncan

After the Buck and Laker powerhouses, San Antonio had the NBA’s most well rounded offense, their only weakness being offensive rebounding. Obviously the Spurs were swept by the Lakers, but they still advanced to the Conference Finals, and I don’t feel like blaming Timmy for losing to the best playoff team ever.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan

In addition to the Spurs offensive prowess, they were clearly the league’s best defense, being in the top 3 of eFG, defensive rebounding, and fouls per field goal attempt. Though David Robinson also seemed to step up this year, with his block numbers actually increasing from last season, Timmy was obviously the heart of the team’s defense.

2. Shawn Marion

Not far behind the Spurs were the Suns, who were in the top 6 of eFG, turnover percentage, and defensive rebounding. Marion was by far the best defensive rebounder and shot blocker on the team, and not far behind Jason Kidd in steals.

3. David Robinson

With the championship monkey off his back, Robinson put together probably his best season since 1998, though I’ll go into more detail about that in the player of the year section. Regardless, the Admiral was still the quickest and most versatile big man of his era besides Hakeem, and Hakeem is a shell of his former self, while Robinson played in nearly every game this year.

Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan

Shaq may have been a great deal better offensively, but Duncan was obviously no slouch on that front, and didn’t have as many free throw issues as him. In addition, his defense was still the best in the league, whereas Shaq arguably peaked as a defender last season.

2. Shaquille O’Neal

That being said, Shaq wasn’t bad on defense quite yet, and his ability to score on absurd volume while leading the league in field goal percentage makes him an easy second choice. That’s without factoring in probably the best playoff run of his career.

3. Ray Allen

Ray’s defense wasn’t anything to write home about this year, though I think he proved himself as a defender later in his career. Even still, his offense was so good that the Bucks nearly made it to the Finals, and likely would’ve put up an even harder fight against the Lakers than the Sixers managed to.

4. Dirk Nowitzki

Dirk was already a good player in his sophomore year, but he finally emerged as a top 10 player this season. After Shaq, he was the most efficient 20 points per game scorer from two, and shot well from three and the line. While not the best defender, he made up for his inadequacies there with some of the best rebounding ever.

5. David Robinson

In addition to the Spurs great offense and defense, Robinson had a bounce back season, with him shooting above league average from the free throw line for the first time since 1996, and having the best postseason numbers of his career since winning his first championship. There’s few things more dangerous than a former MVP with his playoff demons exorcised.

[One_and_Done]

Voting Post

I see 3 legitimate #1 candidates. I can probably be convinced to shift their order if right points are made and justified. For now I will go

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaq

Duncan is unambiguously the best regular-season player to me and I'd guess it's a big gap as well. 5 more wins than what 1 and 3 here manage, 4-points higher SRS. With Shaq the Lakers are a better 3.8 but that still puts LA well, well below a Spurs team where Duncan averages 4 more minutes than the next highest mpg teammate Dav--'

Derek Anderson. David Robinson is averaging 29 minutes, 9 minutes less. The player whose supposed to be averaging the next most is Sean Elliot. He doesn't in part because he misses 30 games. Avery Johnson misses 27. He is about to retire. In the postseason Derek Anderson is absent. Duncan played every game. Credit to his teammates for putting up +13 in the spot minutes they shared without him. When they were actually without him, the Spurs were outscored by .4 from 01-07. And most of those teams included Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker. The Spurs are now 15-points and 38-wins better than they were before they drafted Duncan. And I'm still crediting the bulk of that to Timmy. If someone cares to argue for Vinne Johnson, Derek Anderson, or Antonio Daniels as difference makers they are welcome too. For me though, the Spurs reaching 58-wins and +7 is an all-time regular-season carry job. And if I am placing that below 2 players who combined for less wins and half-the-rating, both better have clearly outplayed Duncan. I can only say that for one. He's the one ranked above partially as a hat-tip to a 16-1 run where he played better for 3 of 4 series, averaged more minutes, and spearheaded an 11-point improvement in team performance from the 2000 playoffs as the Lakers went from the 96th ranked playoff team to the 2nd best of the last 100 years via rolling rating.

People can keep throwing the regular-season wowy for shaq/kobe if they wish but the rs is not where the Lakers three-peated. And the RS is certainly not getting Shaq over Duncan.


In the playoffs Duncan averages 9 more minutes than the next guy Der--'

David Robinson. Derek Anderson gets injured. He plays 7 games where he averages 27.7 minutes. Duncan meanwhile increases his scoring, his assists, his steals, his blocks, and his rebounds with basically the same effeciency. Perhaps someone wishes to argue these numbers are misrepresenative and actually Duncan's defense or playmaking or whatever collapsed. For me to buy that I'll probably need to see something similar to this:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=115977766#p115977766


In the first two rounds they go
+11 PSRS vs the Timberwolves (3-1)
+15 PSRS vs the Mavericks (4-1)
Not seeing much reason to think Duncan isn't clearly the best player here, never mind below 2 players on another team.

And then we get the conference finals. If Shaq is going to dig himself out of an already massive comparative hole, it'll have to be here:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2001-nba-western-conference-finals-lakers-vs-spurs.html
Yeah, color me skeptical.

It's not that I think any player a can't be much better than any player b if you showed what is counted here in a vacuum. But if a basketball reference box-score is going to be biased here, would it be biased against the generally better defender? And if it's biased, is it really going to be biased against the big who has a white-hot Kobe Bryant to feed them the ball and get easy assists of?

Maybe it is, but if it's simply the team result being used as evidence, I think there's plenty of alternative explantions there:

Spoiler:

- Derek Anderson, only able to play 2 games because he was so hurt, put up 2ppg and 2rpg on 170. TS%, with an Ortg of 39. That is not a typo. Played 20mpg, and his Drtg of 126 undersells how bad his D was.
- Post Kidney disease Sean Elliot, able to play 3 games, averaged 1.3ppg, 1.7rpg, on 202. TS%. Also an Ortg of 39. Played 19mpg.
- Age 35 Avery Johnson, not that he was ever good, was playing 22mpg and putting up 6.3ppg, 2.3apg on 383 TS%. Ortg of 77.
- Terry Porter, too old to play D or do much of anything except throw a good inbounds pass, was playing 24.4mpg, and scored 6.3ppg on a FG% of 345. And a 3pt% of 167.
- Old man Dan Ferry, who started 2 games and played 26mpg, scored 3.5ppg on 467 TS%. He was one of their better wing contributors, except he couldn’t play any D and could do nothing but shoot open 3s. Ortg of 88.

And then there's Kobe Bryant who is already being rewarded as #1.

Maybe it's Shaq's gravity actually becoming so much stronger, but Shaq's gravity was there for the regular-season and the last playoffs. Maybe it's Duncan defending much more poorly than normal (not that this allowed shaq to be significantly more effecient). But I need more than a maybe to flip the two of a 4-game sample.

4. Kevin Garnett

One could argue he outplayed Tim Duncan with pretty simple theory that was deployed for 99. The difference here though is the Wolves performance was not unique or impressive as it was the previous 2 postseasons(superior to Drik's Mavs fwiw). KG's scoring improves but a KG argument really needs to be of the regular-season. Little to no WOWY sample though we know that's pretty favorable for him in general. Off RAPM:
https://www.thespax.com/nba/quantifying-the-nbas-greatest-five-year-peaks-since-1997/
5 stretches use 2001. 4 of those 5 have his period rank as top 5 and 3 of them have it at 2 or higher. When I binged 2001 RAPM that was the only source that showed up. Per one of LA Bird's two sourced rapm citations 2001 KG is 8th by 5-year, 8th by 3-year, and 20th by one-year. The only thing I could pull for the other site was 3-year ending in 2002 6-factor RAPM. KG ended up 5th.

I have KG as a top 3 defender as well as a top 10 creator and top 20 scorer at this point. In a year where the likes of Iverson or Vince Carter are legitimate ballot considerations, that's enough for me to put him 4 and the data doesn't really seem to contradict that.

5. Allen Iverson

Was he the 5th best player? Not sure. But I think his playmaking gives him a viable enough defense against "outplayed by every sg" accusations and he plays rather well to give the Lakers their only loss in the playoffs.

DPOY
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Deke Dikembe

OPOY
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Shaq
3. Allen Iverson

Or maybe Kobe went off in the WCFs because of the absolutely scrubalicious wing cast the Spurs had. Duncan can't guard inside and the perimeter at the same time.

[LA Bird]

Not a comprehensive list but some of the bigger names:

On/off (regular season + playoffs combined)
+16.52 Nowitzki (+6.90, -9.62)
+16.46 O'Neal (+9.16, -7.30)
+16.26 Duncan (+10.59, -5.67)
+13.31 McGrady (+3.68, -9.63)
+11.87 Bryant (+8.25, -3.62)
+11.76 Carter (+5.05, -6.71)
+10.21 Marion (+4.67, -5.54)
+8.59 Allen (+5.42, -3.17)
+8.46 Garnett (+2.58, -5.88)
+6.52 Malone (+6.08, -0.44)
+3.63 Iverson (+4.30, +0.67)
+2.70 Webber (+6.28, +3.58)
-0.90 Kidd (+1.60, +2.50)

Always find it funny how the All NBA first team minus Shaq and Duncan are sitting at the bottom.

[DirtyDez]

Why is there nobody mentioning Vince Carter? He was the best wing in the league that year. If you think Duncan’s supporting cast was bad check out the 01’ Raptors. Too bad he pulled that game 7 graduation stunt.

[homecourtloss]

Anyone not having Shaq isn't being sincere at all or transperent

If you want to champion your player cool

Prop up a player or criticise a player then do it for the same across the board. Consistency

30+/15+ and change for the playoffs the totality of the offensive ceiling, the most gravity, equity, value, the most dominant big ever gets it done in 16 games

Please

No one comes close to topping that output. What's the deal with you guys? Look at his impact and load ffs.

Why have a project if not for being objective?

“People who don’t agree with me aren’t objective.”

[konr0167]

1. Duncan

58 wins and+7.92 SRS with a mid ass team. Dereck Anderson with the 2nd most MPG and Drob doesn’t isn’t even averaging 30. Anderson misses half the playoffs and Antonio can’t even start and yeah. It’s honestly a crazy carry job they even got as far as they did. They get dominated in the conference finals but Duncan probably outplays Shaq and idt Kobe was even the Lakers best player for most of the season. Punishing him because they lost feels like punishing Lebron in 2018 almost. Not as easy as 1999 but it’s prolly still Duncan. Definitely should have won MVP.

2. Kobe Bryant

33/7/7 on 57% TS in what was prolly the real nba finals and probably better the first 3 rounds. Shaq was better in the RS I think but Kobe was better in more important games and he averaged more minutes in both anyway.


3. Shaq

best player in the finals going 33 on 57% true shooting against Mutombo with great gravity but Duncan and Kobe are better the first 3 rounds and Duncan’s much better in the RS winning more with alot less.

4. KG

Shout for top 3 prolly but a first round exit is tough. He probably did better h2h vs Duncan than shaq though.


5. Vince Carter

put up 30 and 6 on 57% ts vs #1 ranked philly defense and probably outplayed Iverson. Think he was fringe top 5 in the rs too. AI getting outplayed by opposing SG's in 3 straight series is kinda what kills him for me

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kobe Bryant - 2nd Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Despite being a 1b to Shaq in the RS, Kobe was to me the better player in the PS. While Shaq won Finals MVP, Kobe was better in the first three rounds facing stronger competition particularly so in the Spurs series where he was transcendent. Thus even though Shaq was the Finals MVP, Kobe was the Playoff MVP if such an award existed. The young man did as good a Jordan impersonation as we will see and while Shaq did command attention down low, Kobe was leading the offense with the ball in his hands including getting the big guy the ball in positions where he could thrive. Averaged 28.5/5.9/5.0 on 55.2 %TS (+3.4 rTS) in the RS then 29.4/7.3/6.1 on 55.5 %TS (+5.8 rTS) in the PS.

2. Shaquille O'Neal - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Shaq was the Lakers' MVP in the RS and arguably their best player in the PS. Having him at #1 vs. Kobe is something I grappled with a lot but ultimately went with Kobe who was decisive in the more difficult playoff rounds and carried more of the playmaking duties. I'm also not a believer in Shaq's defensive impact this season as much as some others. I think he peaked defensively in 2000 then got worse and became only a slight positive on defense as extra weight and accumulated mileage started to hurt his mobility. Averaged 28.7/12.7/3.7 on 57.4 %TS (+5.6 rTS) in the RS then 30.4/15.4/3.2 on 56.4 %TS (+6.7 rTS) in the PS.

3. Tim Duncan - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Despite AI winning it, Duncan was the rightful winner of the RS MVP carrying the Spurs to the best SRS in the league despite a supporting cast of role players. However, the PS is kind of a mixed bag for Timmy. In the first round, he got played to a draw by Garnett, he had a very strong series against Dirk and the Mavericks and then he was the third best player in the Lakers series as the Spurs got demolished and embarrassingly swept. Losing so badly in the PS while getting outplayed is always going to drop a player on my rankings. Averaged 22.2/12.2/3.0 on 53.6 %TS (+1.8 rTS) in the RS then 24.4/14.5/3.8 on 53.1 %TS (+1.4 rTS) in the PS.

4. Allen Iverson - 1st Team All-NBA. Iverson had a phenomenal floor-raising season dragging a defensive slanted roster to respectability on offense and then continued so in the PS carrying them to the Finals. Iverson's inconsistent scoring efficiency is definitely a weakness but is mitigated by very low turnover rates and the extreme load he carried on offense. All things considered, I still think he's at best deserving of 2nd place in MVP voting after Duncan and his PS does not merit consideration over the three players ahead of him who are all clearly more impactful than him. AI due to his diminutive stature could be exploited on the defensive end and brought negligible impact there despite gaudy steal tallies. Averaged 31.1/3.8/4.6 on 51.8 %TS (+0.0 rTS) in the RS then 32.9/4.7/6.1 on 48.0 %TS (-3.6 rTS) in the PS.

5. Kevin Garnett - 2nd Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Another fantastic all-around offensive season coupled with elite defense. KG led the Wolves to yet another first round exit and thus has little PS success to build his case off of yet again. Averaged 22.0/11.4/5.0 on 53.1 %TS (+1.3 rTS) in the RS then 21.0/12.0/4.3 on 56.9 %TS (+8.6 rTS) in the PS.

OPOY

1. Kobe Bryant - Great mix of scoring and playmaking.

2. Shaquille O'Neal - Great scoring and gravity inside opens space for his teammates.

3. Allen Iverson - Strong scoring and solid playmaking but poor efficiency. Great floor-raising on offense.

DPOY

1. Tim Duncan - Anchored the #1 defense in the league. Elite rim protector.

2. Dikembe Mutombo - Anchored an elite (though #5) defense in the league and also had a very strong PS defensively. Elite rim protector.

3. Kevin Garnett - Elite horizontal and vertical defensive game in one package.

[AEnigma]

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan
2. Dikembe Mutombo
3. Kevin Garnett

Agree with the top three of the official award, and no objection to Dikembe winning on the basis that I think he was still the “best” defender in the league. However, both Duncan and Garnett play an extra 600 minutes, and while I can justify Dikembe above Garnett for helping bring the 76ers to the Finals, Duncan leading the Spurs to the western conference finals with what had been a dominant defence is too much for Dikembe to overcome on my ballot.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Ray Allen
2. Shaquille O’Neal
3. Vince Carter

Shaq’s missed time coupled with Kobe’s postseason advantage is a enough of a blemish to pull him down to second behind Ray, who (much like Reggie last year) led the league’s best offence. I have voted Reggie top three the past several years, but while Reggie was a generally more proven postseason scorer than Ray was, Ray was the one with the more impressive offensive profile by virtue of being a much better ballhandler and passer, and that advantage was never more apparent than it was this year. Ray increased his shot rate and his raw efficiency against a trio of top ten defences, which is Reggie-esque. He also decreased his turnover rate, which Reggie did do to a degree… but Ray was the one who significantly elevated his activity as a playmaker.

After those two, and after functionally disqualifying Kobe for missing too many regular season games, I considered Dirk (3125 minutes played), Carter (2979 minutes played), Iverson (2979 minutes played), and McGrady (3087 minutes played). Dirk is fantastic… but this is an early prime year for him, and his results given what I feel is a strong supporting cast do not merit too much more than an honourable mention. Iverson and McGrady are the most comparable as high volume middling efficiency scorers also acting as their team’s primary offensive creator in the postseason… and I both am more impressed by McGrady against the Bucks as a common opponent, and generally prefer his offensive skillset. Vince is the more efficient scorer than both this year (his unquestioned peak), and while he is not as natural a playmaker as either, in the regular season he does not lag far behind, and I came away more impressed by how he fared against a pair of top five defences in the postseason than by how Iverson fared against mediocre Bucks/Raptors defences. And then cousin to cousin, McGrady revealing his true potential as a high volume creator in a 1-3 first round loss does not erase what I assess as Vince’s offensive edge across the entire rest of the season.

Player of the Year

5. Allen Iverson
4. Ray Allen
3. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
1. Shaquille O’Neal

So the Allens were not as “good” as Garnett or Dirk this year, and — keeping in mind that the western conference had the top six SRSs and five of the top six records — I think it is entirely possible both those power forwards could have made the conference finals or even the Finals if they had been lucky enough to play in the eastern conference. However, what matters is what happened, and what happened is that both the Wolves and Mavericks were relatively uncompetitive exits to the Spurs, who were in turn obliterated by the Lakers, while the 76ers were the only team to give the Lakers a bit of a challenge and barely escaped the Bucks themselves. In a peaks project, both Iverson and Ray hardly register for me; in a 2001 Player of the Year discussion, I would never refer to Dirk and Garnett before I refer to them.

Iverson in particular is easy to criticise: several other shooting guards grade out as more impactful, and I do not think Iverson’s expected average contribution was anything above what those other guards could have provided in his place. However, what matters is what happened, and Iverson was the one who brought his team to the Finals (albeit with good support), and Iverson was the one who stole a game from a historic playoff juggernaut. Lucky, yes, but this is a reflective exercise, not a predictive one. Take the Raptors series in the second round: on average, I think Carter was better… but the goal here is not to have the best average. The 76ers won four times, and all four times I would say Iverson played better than Carter did (although the “duel” in Game 7 was about as even — and ugly — as the final score).

The problem then is that the same does not hold true in the eastern conference finals. I give Iverson Games 4 and 7… but in Game 1, Ray’s only blemish is that he foolishly sat for six minutes, and in Game 5, the 76ers needed Dikembe and Tyrone Hill to combine to go 15/15 from the line in order to survive the literal worst shooting performance of Iverson’s postseason career. Iverson missed Game 3, and Game 2 was as stark a contrast of opposing star guard performances as I have ever seen. Ray also played 150 minutes more than Iverson did in the regular season, won more games than Iverson did, and had a better on-court rating than Iverson did (despite what I personally assess as a worse roster). At that point, the only real advantage for Iverson is his Game 1 of the Finals, and one game is not enough to overwrite that gap.

Duncan was the most valuable player in the regular season (because Shaq missed 8 games), but both he and Shaq were not significantly changed from the prior season. Shaq had a slightly worse regular season and postseason, and Duncan had a slightly better regular season that translated fine into the postseason, but Duncan’s real leap occurs next year. I am in the camp favouring peak Duncan over peak Shaq and prime Duncan over prime Shaq, and I think too many Shaq backers ignore how Duncan outplayed him in 1999, 2002, and 2003. This is 2001, though, and while I see a lot of language hiding behind how Shaq had more support (true) and how that advantage in support is the primary reason for the blowout (true), for some reason no one is bothering to argue that Duncan played better than Shaq that series. Shaq outperformed Duncan regardless of Kobe incinerating the Spurs’ wings or the non-Duncan Spurs trailing by 15 points a game on the perimetre alone. And while that does not need to matter if you think Duncan was better in the season preceding those rough final two games, it certainly seems like it should matter to the people attempting to put both Duncan and Kobe ahead of Shaq.

On that note, the Lakers’ regular season MVP easily goes to Shaq: he plays more than Kobe does, he scores more than Kobe does, he is more efficient than Kobe is, he is a bigger part of the defence than Kobe is, his record without Kobe (11-3) is better than Kobe’s record without him (5-3)… But a lot of the discussion has been about how much better Kobe was in the postseason, and aside from disingenuous gestures to postseason on/off, I do not see that. Kobe was better against the Spurs, yes. Dramatically more difficult matchup for Shaq, but all the same, Kobe drove that series win. Shaq drove the Finals win though. We can be more impressed by the Spurs win, but in turn we should also acknowledge how the Lakers likely win that series even if Kobe played moderately worse (even without Kobe, the Lakers outscored the Spurs by 11 points a game from the perimetre) and that what Kobe ultimately accomplished was securing a sweep with a high net rating. Against the Blazers and Kings, I feel like Shaq and Kobe split pretty evenly across both series. If someone says they prefer Kobe in both, that is fine, but when you go game by game, the only games I would say Kobe was definitely better were 1.1, 2.3, and 2.4, whereas Shaq was definitely better in 2.1 and 2.2. Debatable who deserves more credit in 1.2 and 1.3, although I lean toward Shaq. So overall it is a fairly divided postseason, and even if most of us can agree Kobe might have established an advantage, it should only be in the 1a/1b sense. If that is enough for a #1 spot, so be it, but I need more than ~7-8 games of superiority to take a player above their otherwise more merited teammate… and the idea those 7-8 games drop Shaq down to fourth does not seem like an approach taken in good faith.

[One_and_Done]

I may need to rethink if Ray Allen belongs on my ballot. I'm also worried I'm underrating Malone here. That support cast he led to 53 wins was just weak. If we swapped out Malone for Kobe I think there's basically no chance he leads the Jazz to 53 wins. Malone didn't have the best playoffs, but he wasn't bad either and the Jazz lost in 5 by 1 point, to a team which had much more talent. If 1 play goes differently, they beat the Mavs.

[lessthanjake]

I may need to rethink if Ray Allen belongs on my ballot. I'm also worried I'm underrating Malone here. That support cast he led to 53 wins was just weak. If we swapped out Malone for Kobe I think there's basically no chance he leads the Jazz to 53 wins. Malone didn't have the best playoffs, but he wasn't bad either and the Jazz lost in 5 by 1 point, to a team which had much more talent. If 1 play goes differently, they beat the Mavs.

I don’t actually necessarily disagree with putting Malone above Allen this season, but I’m not sure it makes sense to think of Malone as having led a “weak” team to 53 wins, when Stockton looks far better by impact measures that year. The Jazz had a -7.94 net rating in minutes with Malone and without Stockton. And they had a +15.41 net rating in minutes without Malone and with Stockton. The samples here aren’t massive, but it definitely does suggest Stockton was more impactful that year. Even if we want to discount that to some degree and don’t want to index entirely on impact data (which I think is a valid approach—impact metrics are not everything), I think it still should make us think twice about thinking of the Jazz as Karl Malone pulling up a weak supporting cast.

[Lost92Bricks]

2002 is the year Duncan should go over Shaq, not 2001. How do you justify Duncan and the Spurs playoff performance getting swept like that and him getting outplayed to that degree.

[canada_dry]

I really don't think kobe has a case to be above 3rd.

At the time the discourse around the league was simply shaq vs Duncan who was better? Shaq very clearly took it in 2000 and i believe he did enough to keep the crown in 01 as well.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[One_and_Done]

I really don't think kobe has a case to be above 3rd.

At the time the discourse around the league was simply shaq vs Duncan who was better? Shaq very clearly took it in 2000 and i believe he did enough to keep the crown in 01 as well.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I definitely agree that the narrative for most was Duncan vs Shaq for best player, which makes that Iverson MVP even more bizarre than it already is. That said, the casual fan probably thought Shaq was still better than Duncan in 2002 as well, when in reality I think there's little doubt Duncan had surpassed him to reclaim the best player mantle.

[canada_dry]

I really don't think kobe has a case to be above 3rd.

At the time the discourse around the league was simply shaq vs Duncan who was better? Shaq very clearly took it in 2000 and i believe he did enough to keep the crown in 01 as well.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I definitely agree that the narrative for most was Duncan vs Shaq for best player, which makes that Iverson MVP even more bizarre than it already is. That said, the casual fan probably thought Shaq was still better than Duncan in 2002 as well, when in reality I think there's little doubt Duncan had surpassed him to reclaim the best player mantle.

Thats ok. Mvp really isnt a best player award. Never has been.

I do wish shaq would be accurate and at least contest that Iverson has his mvp from 01, rather than always complaining about 05 and 06 (lol) being his.

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[ShaqAttac]

2002 is the year Duncan should go over Shaq, not 2001. How do you justify Duncan and the Spurs playoff performance getting swept like that and him getting outplayed to that degree.

kobe outplayed duncan. why shaq getting cred for getting carried?

[ShaqAttac]

KOBE
kob the reason only take 1 l and kob the one who goes crazy vs spurs. idk why ppl leaving kob off and keeping shaq top 2.

DUNCAN
cant be 1 with team choking like that but seem like he carrying scrubs to 58 wins and cf. dont look like shaq even played better in the l so idk how ppl putting him higher.

AI
AI carry his team to 50 wins and finals and then gets a dub vs superteam la with kobe and shaq goin crazy. if ai had kobe he's winning too. idk how ppl putting all these other guys up when ai had scrubs and beat all of them. also wins MVP tho ig maybe duncan should have.

SHAQ
he goes crazy in finals but he gets carried before that. not putting a bus rider over bus drivers.

ALLEN
Almost make final. I know KG great impact but only 1 dub against duncan and scrubs ain't cut it

[70sFan]

SHAQ
he goes crazy in finals but he gets carried before that. not putting a bus rider over bus drivers.

Sorry, but that's a crazy take. Even if you evaluate Kobe higher for the WC run than Shaq (understandable, though unclear), saying that Kobe carried him is ridiculous. Shaq didn't really underperform in any series and the Lakers completely dominated the competition.

[ShaqAttac]

SHAQ
he goes crazy in finals but he gets carried before that. not putting a bus rider over bus drivers.

Sorry, but that's a crazy take. Even if you evaluate Kobe higher for the WC run than Shaq (understandable, though unclear), saying that Kobe carried him is ridiculous. Shaq didn't really underperform in any series and the Lakers completely dominated the competition.

shaq no kobe gets swept by timmy. shaq with kobe sweeping. that looks like carry to me.

act we gotta have a convo bout how shaq be getting swept by everyone til he got someone playin like mj next to him. how he have all this impact and he the best o and the most gravity but every time he play a top guy he takes 4 ls. shaq maybe reg szn superman but kob took the cape for the yoffs.

[70sFan]

SHAQ
he goes crazy in finals but he gets carried before that. not putting a bus rider over bus drivers.

Sorry, but that's a crazy take. Even if you evaluate Kobe higher for the WC run than Shaq (understandable, though unclear), saying that Kobe carried him is ridiculous. Shaq didn't really underperform in any series and the Lakers completely dominated the competition.

shaq no kobe gets swept by timmy. shaq with kobe sweeping. that looks like carry to me.

act we gotta have a convo bout how shaq be getting swept by everyone til he got someone playin like mj next to him. how he have all this impact and he the best o and the most gravity but every time he play a top guy he takes 4 ls. shaq maybe reg szn superman but kob took the cape for the yoffs.

Kobe played in 1999 series, unless you talk about 2008 Phoenix series, which would be silly.

Shaq wasn't "swept by everyone" before he got someone playing "like MJ". Have you forgotten that he won the title th year before? Or that he made the finals in 1995? Or that he won the year after with Kobe having relatively weak postseason run?

Do you have any actual evidences to back up your claims, or do you just spread misinformation?

[ShaqAttac]

Sorry, but that's a crazy take. Even if you evaluate Kobe higher for the WC run than Shaq (understandable, though unclear), saying that Kobe carried him is ridiculous. Shaq didn't really underperform in any series and the Lakers completely dominated the competition.

shaq no kobe gets swept by timmy. shaq with kobe sweeping. that looks like carry to me.

act we gotta have a convo bout how shaq be getting swept by everyone til he got someone playin like mj next to him. how he have all this impact and he the best o and the most gravity but every time he play a top guy he takes 4 ls. shaq maybe reg szn superman but kob took the cape for the yoffs.

Kobe played in 1999 series, unless you talk about 2008 Phoenix series, which would be silly.

Shaq wasn't "swept by everyone" before he got someone playing "like MJ". Have you forgotten that he won the title th year before? Or that he made the finals in 1995? Or that he won the year after with Kobe having relatively weak postseason run?

Do you have any actual evidences to back up your claims, or do you just spread misinformation?

kob wasnt a star in 1999 p sure and i didnt see anyone vote for him. 2000 he didnt play any mvps and he almost lost to rasheed anyway. he made finals with penny who was winning on his own and was the only guy hakeem swept. then he get swept by mj. then he almost gets swept by malone. and then he swept by malone for real. then he swept by duncan. then duncan hurt. and now la dominating comp he get swept by with kobe playing like mj.

not even like his other teams bad. he just likes em brooms