GT: HORNETS at WIZ THU DEC 26 7PM

[Braggins]

Idk, I think there is more reason right now to be hopeful for this franchise than there ever has been (in spite of record, coaching, roster, reality, etc.)

Yeah, the baseline for this franchise going into this year is being the worst franchise in the league over the last decade. This year for the first time they have a new ownership group and they also have a new GM and coach who are both in their first seasons in those positions. The future right now is mostly uncertain, which is a much better place to be in than having MJ as owner with multiple decades of evidence of failure behind him and his various GMs (not to mention Clifford as coach).

I don't think anyone is very confident in the new regime at this point and I don't think anyone would be surprised if they end up failing, but its wild to already be acting like that is 100% inevitable 10 months into their tenure and be having public meltdowns on here about it.

Theres a huge difference between saying "I think this new GM and coach suck" and saying "Its literally impossible for this team to get a top 3 pick" or "Mark Williams will never play another NBA game". No one is saying you have to be positive.

[Robot Rock]

Idk, I think there is more reason right now to be hopeful for this franchise than there ever has been (in spite of record, coaching, roster, reality, etc.)

Yeah, the baseline for this franchise going into this year is being the worst franchise in the league over the last decade. This year for the first time they have a new ownership group and they also have a new GM and coach who are both in their first seasons in those positions. The future right now is mostly uncertain, which is a much better place to be in than having MJ as owner with multiple decades of evidence of failure behind him and his various GMs (not to mention Clifford as coach).

I don't think anyone is very confident in the new regime at this point and I don't think anyone would be surprised if they end up failing, but its wild to already be acting like that is 100% inevitable 10 months into their tenure and be having public meltdowns on here about it.

Theres a huge difference between saying "I think this new GM and coach suck" and saying "Its literally impossible for this team to get a top 3 pick" or "Mark Williams will never play another NBA game".

I don't blame you for assuming, but you're gonna have to walk that last one back because we were absolutely making jokes in that thread. Again, I own being negative (and therefore right) most of the time, but even I knew he'd come back at some point before his contract ran out.

And the issue with your point is that when I say I think the GM and coach suck (I don't think the GM does yet; he's made more good moves to buy goodwill than the coach) it still offends people on here who think the sky's the limit with this perennial title contender.

[KembaWalker]

This particular roster and staff has all the makings of a complete bust factory even if they got pick 1. That should be the expected and deserved outcome when you pin all your hopes on stuff you can’t control while the stuff you can control stinks of the rot.

This team should be way more concerned with Miller and Ball losing an entire year of development playing real basketball along with however long it will take to hopefully undo the damage down the line than it should be getting another kid to throw into this landfill

[EmpireFalls]

Miles, Green, and Salaun. The first 3 player personnel moves Jeff Peterson made. All 3 horrific.

[JDR720]

I've been surprised by how bad Green is. I remember Mavs fans hyping him up at one point, but so far he's been below average at best. He defends and can make a 3, but that's it. Basically the SG version of PJ.

[MasterIchiro]

Martin is a zero on offense but so is Green. The kicker is Green makes twice as much as him.

Then the coach sticks with Green as starter after Mann breaks out big in exhibition season. Coach fails to reward standout play, then later (and recently) threatens to chop playing time for poor play.

These are self-motivated adults not children you lecture and threaten like some substitute teacher. If the team were learning and felt vested in the system Lee is building, he wouldn't have to make any threat in the first place.

If you're going to ever be a hardas$, the worst thing you can do is present yourself as a cheerleader pom pom waver on the sidelines then just go all Mean Girls when you feel like you are losing influence and control.

It breaks trust.

Walk in as a hardas$, reward good play, punish bad play with reduced PT and never ever make empty threats about it.

What the hell did Josh Green do last night?

Is Lee going to follow through and chop his PT?

The answer is no.

[MasterIchiro]

Now for JP and his smiley persona talking about making this franchise premiere then immediately drafting a project and adding Josh Green.

Is JP going to correct course and undo the Green move? Order Salaün to Greensboro? Let the players quit his coaching hire and just sit there and punt the deadline as the resentment grows?

Own up to your work. The corporate line only gets you so far. It's bad because the owners don't have basketball roots beyond being buddy buddy with Peterson at the beginning of their ownership experience. JP has sparse history in the game so he doesn't come with an allegiance of seasoned NBA scouts and development personnel. So you get a noob as a coach and his staff are all noobs too.

New GM. New Coach. New coaching staff. New players trying to break out, unrewarded. Old players not performing, unpunished. Coach threatening PT. Vet calling a players meeting. These are all bad omens.

Do they make fun of Lee behind his back? And does JP know about it?

Big trade deadline coming.

I personally think some of the old guard who's been here through all 3 injury-filled seasons should go.

Martin. Nick Richards. Next year Miles.

Then move off your early mistake Green. Take a hard look at Salaün next year. He's looking like a 7 million dollar matching salary.

[wilson115]

Then the coach sticks with Green as starter after Mann breaks out big in exhibition season. Coach fails to reward standout play, then later (and recently) threatens to chop playing time for poor play.

I think it's more like the second unit needs a scorer (Mann) and the starters need a 3-and-D guy (Green) next to them. As good as Mann is, you can't count on him and his negative wingspan to D-up the FVVs and Brunsons of this league every night out.

[MasterIchiro]

Then the coach sticks with Green as starter after Mann breaks out big in exhibition season. Coach fails to reward standout play, then later (and recently) threatens to chop playing time for poor play.

I think it's more like the second unit needs a scorer (Mann) and the starters need a 3-and-D guy (Green) next to them. As good as Mann is, you can't count on him and his negative wingspan to D-up the FVVs and Brunsons of this league every night out.

Mann is no zero on defense though, the way Green and Martin are zeroes on offense.

And I prefer a zero on defense over a zero on offense in today's game. Plenty of successful offenses are carrying a starting unit with limitations on defense.

We have Mark as a stopper and he has elite potential. We don't need a 2-way star this season like we need a functional offense.

With Green and Cody doing nothing there, the offense is destroying morale.

Mann is already trending towards maturing into a 3rd option. Score some buckets more frequently and the defense has a better chance to get set.

[wilson115]

Mann is no zero on defense though, the way Green and Martin are zeroes on offense.

And I prefer a zero on defense over a zero on offense in today's game. Plenty of successful offenses are carrying a starting unit with limitations on defense.

We have Mark as a stopper and he has elite potential. We don't need a 2-way star this season like we need a functional offense.

With Green and Cody doing nothing there, the offense is destroying morale.

Mann is already trending towards maturing into a 3rd option. Score some buckets more frequently and the defense has a better chance to get set.

Out of the top 10 offenses, the Kings are arguably the only ones not starting one or multiple guys mainly for their defense. Max Christie certainly isn't starting for the Lakers because of his 6.9 ppg.
https://www.foxsports.com/articles/nba/2023-24-nba-offensive-rating-team-offense-rankings-and-efficiency-stats

Going by last night, the starting unit certainly isn't to blame for the scoring issues. Stick Mann in it and he ends up with less touches anyway sharing the ball with Melo, Miller, Miles, and Mark. And matched-up against starters, Mann likely ends up in foul trouble more often with teams targeting him as the smallest player the Hornets start. The Hornets bench, on the other hand, with multiple, in your words, "zeroes on offense" getting playing time...

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[MasterIchiro]

Mann is no zero on defense though, the way Green and Martin are zeroes on offense.

And I prefer a zero on defense over a zero on offense in today's game. Plenty of successful offenses are carrying a starting unit with limitations on defense.

We have Mark as a stopper and he has elite potential. We don't need a 2-way star this season like we need a functional offense.

With Green and Cody doing nothing there, the offense is destroying morale.

Mann is already trending towards maturing into a 3rd option. Score some buckets more frequently and the defense has a better chance to get set.

Out of the top 10 offenses, the Kings are arguably the only ones not starting one or multiple guys mainly for their defense. Max Christie certainly isn't starting for the Lakers because of his 6.9 ppg.
https://www.foxsports.com/articles/nba/2023-24-nba-offensive-rating-team-offense-rankings-and-efficiency-stats

Going by last night, the starting unit certainly isn't to blame for the scoring issues. Stick Mann in it and he ends up with less touches anyway sharing the ball with Melo, Miller, Miles, and Mark. And matched-up against starters, Mann likely ends up in foul trouble more often with teams targeting him as the smallest player the Hornets start. The Hornets bench, on the other hand, with multiple, in your words, "zeroes on offense" getting playing time...

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That's fine. Green doesn't get to camp out on the 1st unit by default.

[wilson115]

That's fine. Green doesn't get to camp out on the 1st unit by default.

But if you stick Tre Mann with that group of starters, he stops being Tre Mann.

[MasterIchiro]

That's fine. Green doesn't get to camp out on the 1st unit by default.

But if you stick Tre Mann with that group of starters, he stops being Tre Mann.

You obviously have work to do replacing Mann. But you have to reward good play and don't grant starter jobs by default. Green has flunked as a starter.

[wilson115]

You obviously have work to do replacing Mann. But you have to reward good play and don't grant starter jobs by default. Green has flunked as a starter.

So who's saying NBA coaches have to "reward good play" by making guys starters? Is Green a starter by default, or because he's currently the team's best option for the starting 3&D role? If he sucks anyway then why not trade for someone up to the job instead of forcing it on someone like Mann, who's doing just fine with the role he has. (Off-the-bench scorer.)

Are you a failure as an NBA player if you aren't starting? Guys like Jordan Clarkson (>$100M in contracts) might beg to differ.

[MasterIchiro]

You obviously have work to do replacing Mann. But you have to reward good play and don't grant starter jobs by default. Green has flunked as a starter.

So who's saying NBA coaches have to "reward good play" by making guys starters? Is Green a starter by default, or because he's currently the team's best option for the starting 3&D role? If he sucks anyway then why not trade for someone up to the job instead of forcing it on someone like Mann, who's doing just fine with the role he has. (Off-the-bench scorer.)

Are you a failure as an NBA player if you aren't starting? Guys like Jordan Clarkson (>$100M in contracts) might beg to differ.

You now know Green is not cut out for a starter role. So even if he won the job by default, you need to make a change. You can insert Mann in his place in the starting lineup, then add a bench scorer.

[wilson115]

You now know Green is not cut out for a starter role. So even if he won the job by default, you need to make a change. You can insert Mann in his place in the starting lineup, then add a bench scorer.

I'm not sure I can know anything for sure about Green a little over two months in a Hornets uniform. I'm sure there's guys out there better able to fill his role (3&D guy) if we could trade for them. I'm not sure what makes you think Mann's one of them.

[MasterIchiro]

You now know Green is not cut out for a starter role. So even if he won the job by default, you need to make a change. You can insert Mann in his place in the starting lineup, then add a bench scorer.

I'm not sure I can know anything for sure about Green a little over two months in a Hornets uniform. I'm sure there's guys out there better able to fill his role (3&D guy) if we could trade for them. I'm not sure what makes you think Mann's one of them.

You're stuck on role. Who's the secondary playmaker on the starting unit? Is that not at least equally important as 3&D and are you sure about that?

[wilson115]

You're stuck on role. Who's the secondary playmaker on the starting unit? Is that not at least equally important as 3&D and are you sure about that?

Make Mann a starter and he will end up stuck spotting up at the corner for 3s like Green is right now. The alternative's taking away touches from LaMelo and better options on offense. So Mann ends up as another Josh Green, a 3&D guy, only shorter.

[MasterIchiro]

You're stuck on role. Who's the secondary playmaker on the starting unit? Is that not at least equally important as 3&D and are you sure about that?

Make Mann a starter and he will end up stuck spotting up at the corner for 3s like Green is right now. The alternative's taking away touches from LaMelo and better options on offense. So Mann ends up as another Josh Green, a 3&D guy, only shorter.

Who is going to get LaMelo and Miller good looks ? You can survive without a secondary playmaker in the starting unit? Fine. That's your plan. I think we need someone to get Miller and LaMelo better looks and you have to respect Mann, so he spreads the floor as he's a threat to create for himself and others.

You're hung up on how to get LaMelo and Miller more touches without consideration of how to get them better looks and more space. Green isn't doing that.

[wilson115]

Who is going to get LaMelo and Miller good looks ? You can survive without a secondary playmaker in the starting unit? Fine. That's your plan. I think we need someone to get Miller and LaMelo better looks and you have to respect Mann, so he spreads the floor as he's a threat to create for himself and others.

You're hung up on how to get LaMelo and Miller more touches without consideration of how to get them better looks and more space. Green isn't doing that.

Have you seen how teams defend Cody Martin? When he's got the ball, defenders stay glued to everyone else and just watch Cody pound the ball for a whole possession. That's how it's going to turn out asking LaMelo to stand around and wait while someone like Mann tries to create. Yes, Mann's hot stuff off the bench but against starters, he's facing schemes geared to stop or at least slow down LaMelo. We're basically doing them a favor putting a little guy in LaMelo's place.