Josh Giddey - Conundrum Killer

[dougthonus]

It's kind of hilarious armchair GM's think they do better analysis and have a quarter of the info the teams have, lol. I keep seeing people talk about Vuc wouldn't get that on the free agent market, Pat wouldn't get that on the free agent market, now Giddey won't get paid on the free agent market. I'm ABSOLUTELY sure they put feelers around the league to get an idea of what these players would get offered, and absolutely sure they have more sources with other teams. Then fans put their personal feelings about the player in, and ignore very similar players on other teams get just as much or more. Call the Bulls cheap on one hand then saying they keep massively overpaying their free agents doesn't click. They made Zach go and find his own offer, rather than overpaying him.

They had a good idea of Vuc's market value, better than fans. Had a good idea of Pat's market value, better than fans. Fans are in here talking about the max they would give a 22-year-old with 4 years of experience already and is a walking triple double threat is $12-15 mill/yr. You're insane if you think that's even close to his market, then get disappointed when they sign him to more. Just say you don't want to pay him what he's worth, not that he's not worth what he gets.

For the most part, I agree that FOs know way more than fans. They have more insight to a bunch of things that fans can't. They also have to cope with human aspects of the game that fans often forget and can't see.

That said, while this general statement is true, there are still wide gaps between good and bad FOs. Our FO is one of the worst in the league. It pains me how little vision they have, how poor their overall strategy is, and how middling their execution is. They do not seem to understand how to read FA well, draft well, and seem to regularly lose trades when they make them. Even to the extent they have some execution wins, because their overall strategy is non-sensical and misguided, they don't amount to anything.

[CROBulls]

I'll say this about Giddey: He wants to be good. He wants to win.

There is value in that. I'm not sure I can say that about every NBA player as many seem to be just happy to be there.

Does he though?

He says a lot of the right things, but the outcomes of his work don't seem to back up that he's doing the right things. His shot form shows someone who absolutely does not give a F about improving it. Literally, in 3 months he could have reworked that shot to have a form that doesn't look like a 7 year old trying to heave a basketball to the basket from the 3 point line and yet, here we are, still one of the ugliest, slowest, worst shots in the NBA.

His defense is still awful even considering his physical limitations.

He doesn't seem like he's done much to improve his body or take advantage of the idea that if he became much stronger and more physical he could at least play more bully ball.

I've not chronicled him across his career, but I'm not impressed based on what he said in his exit interviews from OKC and what he has achieved in an off-season since then. I'd say basically zero progress towards all the things he himself identified as critical.

I'm not saying he is lazy / terrible / won't work relative to say someone like me eating pretzels on my couch, but compared to the top 300 or so basketball players in the world that he's competing against? I don't think his work ethic / desire is above the median player, probably less.

I will say this. Giddey maybe wants to win, but he wants his money guaranteed first. Money comes first. I dont blame him. This is his first big contract. If he went to rework his shot and his stats suffered, everyone around NBA would low ball him.


There is absolutely zero leverage for him and to be honest, he would be complete idiot if he went to rework his shot during his contract year. Specially on a new team where he needs to even prove himself to get opportunity to play. I will mention Franz Wagner who did same and rework his shot after getting money.

[dougthonus]

I will say this. Giddey maybe wants to win, but he wants his money guaranteed first. Money comes first. I dont blame him. This is his first big contract. If he went to rework his shot and his stats suffered, everyone around NBA would low ball him.


There is absolutely zero leverage for him and to be honest, he would be complete idiot if he went to rework his shot during his contract year. Specially on a new team where he needs to even prove himself to get opportunity to play.

His percentages wouldn't have gone down any from reworking his shot into normal form. His percentages are absolutely embarrassing relative to the shots he takes. Starting from 0 you could hit his percentages putting in 2 hours a day for a summer with quicker, better form.

He's worth less money for not fixing anything at all this off-season.

[DuckIII]

I’m not going to spend much time re-evaluating his value after he dropped an extremely impressive triple double.

I’m not at all sold on him yet. I also feel like to an extent the recent fawning over his defense is kind of like parents going nuts when their kids start to walk. Let’s face it, those kids still suck at walking. We just get excited that they are actually doing it.

Bad defender, questionable shooter, I love the rest of it. But that’s not good enough for a significant contract on a team that should be selective and flexible when rebuilding rather than rushing it. Which style sounds more like AK though?

[Indomitable]

I'll say this about Giddey: He wants to be good. He wants to win.

There is value in that. I'm not sure I can say that about every NBA player as many seem to be just happy to be there.

Does he though?

He says a lot of the right things, but the outcomes of his work don't seem to back up that he's doing the right things. His shot form shows someone who absolutely does not give a F about improving it. Literally, in 3 months he could have reworked that shot to have a form that doesn't look like a 7 year old trying to heave a basketball to the basket from the 3 point line and yet, here we are, still one of the ugliest, slowest, worst shots in the NBA.

His defense is still awful even considering his physical limitations.

He doesn't seem like he's done much to improve his body or take advantage of the idea that if he became much stronger and more physical he could at least play more bully ball.

I've not chronicled him across his career, but I'm not impressed based on what he said in his exit interviews from OKC and what he has achieved in an off-season since then. I'd say basically zero progress towards all the things he himself identified as critical.

I'm not saying he is lazy / terrible / won't work relative to say someone like me eating pretzels on my couch, but compared to the top 300 or so basketball players in the world that he's competing against? I don't think his work ethic / desire is above the median player, probably less.

I will say this. Giddey maybe wants to win, but he wants his money guaranteed first. Money comes first. I dont blame him. This is his first big contract. If he went to rework his shot and his stats suffered, everyone around NBA would low ball him.


There is absolutely zero leverage for him and to be honest, he would be complete idiot if he went to rework his shot during his contract year. Specially on a new team where he needs to even prove himself to get opportunity to play. I will mention Franz Wagner who did same and rework his shot after getting money.

Are you serious?

[cocktailswith_2short]

Reworking your shot is not as simple and easy as you guys think . Do you guys play basketball ?

[waffle]

I do love the toughness when rebounding and he does make at a minimum 2 WOW plays every game. And it is only rarely flash for flashes sake, he makes flashy plays that are also impactful - his ratio of head slapping mistakes is fairly low for the type of game he has

[Infinity2152]

How do you build a team with Triple Double Threat Josh Giddey?

Lets says his D improves to average this season where he’s not targeted, stays with his man, and plays solid. He’s shown he can. The rest of his game stays the same.

Billy will play him at SF with two guards. He has never played him at PG with a SF and PF. So Buz or Pat will be coming off the bench long term. Deandre Hunter is breaking out as 6th man for the Hawks.

If we keep Lavine you’d think Ayo Lavine Giddey Pat Vuc. Coby as your 6th man coming in with Lonzo and Buz.

Billy should be playing Buz Pat Giddey together in a bigger lineup but he hasn’t and won’t. I do love the Zo Giddey pairing as the ball flies around.

Giddey works best with 3D two way players that cut and are high IQ and get out and run. Buz is a great fit. A lob threat rim running big man would be a great fit.

Triple Double Giddey is an easy player to build with. If he can improve his 3pt shot like Zo did he could be a 3rd guy on a contender. His three biggest needs are defense, 3 ball, and shot creating. His D has greatly improved. His 3 ball is the same and below average but I think he can and will get better when he fixes the hitch. I don’t see him ever being able to create much offense outside of secondary break downhill runner. He could become a PNR maestro but we haven’t seen it. Don’t ever see stepback 3s part of his creating arsenal.

Regardless of how Billy plays him, Giddey/Lavine/Matas/Pat with a good center should be a good lineup on both sides. Giddey's shooting has improved every year, don't know why that would stop because he's a Bull. Slower than most PG's but way taller, he just has to learn how to use that advantage. There's a big difference between can a guy be an effective starter on a good team and can we build around him.

Giddey just got here, we're really guard heavy, and Matas is a rookie. Billy plays three guard lineups a lot yes, but how often do we have two healthy effective forwards anyway? Our guards have been way better than our forwards. Ball/Lavine/Ayo/Coby/Caruso vs Pat/6'5" Torrey Craig/6'6 DJJ and 6'4 Javonte Green. Derozan's basically a guard too. Not sure if we've had two forwards deserving minutes, unless we count not playing DJJ more. If Matas can take Coby's starting spot, that would be great.

[CROBulls]

I will say this. Giddey maybe wants to win, but he wants his money guaranteed first. Money comes first. I dont blame him. This is his first big contract. If he went to rework his shot and his stats suffered, everyone around NBA would low ball him.


There is absolutely zero leverage for him and to be honest, he would be complete idiot if he went to rework his shot during his contract year. Specially on a new team where he needs to even prove himself to get opportunity to play.

His percentages wouldn't have gone down any from reworking his shot into normal form. His percentages are absolutely embarrassing relative to the shots he takes. Starting from 0 you could hit his percentages putting in 2 hours a day for a summer with quicker, better form.

He's worth less money for not fixing anything at all this off-season.

You also now mention and proving why he not reworking his shot during season. He takes relatively very small amount of shots during game. His percentages would literally drop to unplayable, likely worse than in his rookie year. Would very likely affect his confidence and at some point he would be told to stop shooting by coaching staff or got his minutes reduced. He doesnt have a big role on this team where he gonna get 15 times per game. His average this year is around 10 and actually lowest amount of his career at this point and this is on playing on very much worst team in his career. And he also playing 2nd lowest amount of minutes in his career.

[jnrjr79]

I will say this. Giddey maybe wants to win, but he wants his money guaranteed first. Money comes first. I dont blame him. This is his first big contract. If he went to rework his shot and his stats suffered, everyone around NBA would low ball him.


There is absolutely zero leverage for him and to be honest, he would be complete idiot if he went to rework his shot during his contract year. Specially on a new team where he needs to even prove himself to get opportunity to play.

His percentages wouldn't have gone down any from reworking his shot into normal form. His percentages are absolutely embarrassing relative to the shots he takes. Starting from 0 you could hit his percentages putting in 2 hours a day for a summer with quicker, better form.

He's worth less money for not fixing anything at all this off-season.

FWIW, his offseason was the Olympics and then recovering from a serious injury, so he may not have had time to rework things with Patton or whoever else.

[dougthonus]

You also now mention and proving why he not reworking his shot during season. He takes relatively very small amount of shots during game.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, I agree he can't change it during the season, but he should have during the off-season. Also probably hard to add strength during the season, could have done it in the off-season. He _can_ work on his defense during the season, he's gotten a bit better as the season has progressed.

This off-season, he did not fix literally any of his flaws though. Someone whom wanted to improve so badly, accurately identified his flaws prior to the off-season started, then appeared to do nothing to fix them during the off-season, doesn't strike me as a "want to win" guy relative to his peer group.

Again, I'm sure he wants to win and I'm sure he's a hard worker on an absolute scale, but that's true of anyone who has made the league. You simply can't get this far and be lazy on an absolute scale, but relative to a peer group of hard workers? Doubt he's anything special.

[dougthonus]

FWIW, his offseason was the Olympics and then recovering from a serious injury, so he may not have had time to rework things with Patton or whoever else.

The Olympics was a choice, though certainly an understandable one. Even so, he had over 3 months prior to the Olympics starting and his season ending.

[2weekswithpay]

Reworking your shot is not as simple and easy as you guys think . Do you guys play basketball ?

It isn't but Giddey's shot was an issue before he was drafted. Three offseasons later and the form is still too slow and inconsistent.

[jnrjr79]

FWIW, his offseason was the Olympics and then recovering from a serious injury, so he may not have had time to rework things with Patton or whoever else.

The Olympics was a choice, though certainly an understandable one. Even so, he had over 3 months prior to the Olympics starting and his season ending.

Not really. Training camp started in June and presumably Giddey wasn’t going to try to overhaul his shot before that.

I’m not disputing it’s something he should work on, but I think using it as a sign of whether he’s a hard worker or not is dubious.

[kodo]

His high shot quality 3P% is fine as a forward, but he like a lot of Bulls is encouraged to take 3P shots he shouldn't. The Bulls have swung the pendulum to 11 trying to be a 3P shooting team, when they're serious about winning I assume they'll moderate their 3P attempts to what makes sense. Giddey is shooting above the break 3s, dribble 3s, 3s not in rhythm of the offense (eg he'll dribble, the defense plays his drive a certain way, he hesitates, launches a 3). It's not just him, Coby & Ayo are also taking terrible 3P shots. Lavine does as well but his career is based on making those and he's earned an amount of trust on those like Derozan does on contested middies.

But a winning coach would be having Giddey only taking catch & shoot 3s on the sides as a result of defenses sagging off him. On the corner situations he's 39% on 3s. But they're a minority of his shots. He's shooting far less on corner 3s vs OKC, and he's shooting more unassisted 3s vs OKC. He's being coached to shoot worse 3P shots. On actual %, in the corners it's gone significantly up from 37% to 39%. Above the break? He should be driving to pass, or just moving the ball. Far better things happen when he drives off the P&R and makes a pass than him shooting out of rhythm above the break 3s.

But this isn't a Giddey specific problem, to reiterate all the ballhandlers are taking bad shots. It's pretty much a common theme whenever the national media or other teams comment on the Bulls and how the offense looks like a bunch of guys just chucking 3s without a plan.

[dougthonus]

Reworking your shot is not as simple and easy as you guys think . Do you guys play basketball ?

I went from Giddey like form that I had used for 8 years of somewhat regular play to good shooting form in a single summer working with a shooting coach for an hour a week for maybe 10 weeks and working on my own another couple hours a week, break even point on being a better shooter reworking my form was probably like 5 weeks.

I don't mean this in the sense of saying it is the same, but relative to your point of "do you play basketball", I have gone through the exact exercise at the rec level.

If Giddey was solid and reworking his form to get to really good, that'd be tough, but being poor and reworking your form to just get back to poor isn't that hard.

[League Circles]

I will say this. Giddey maybe wants to win, but he wants his money guaranteed first. Money comes first. I dont blame him. This is his first big contract. If he went to rework his shot and his stats suffered, everyone around NBA would low ball him.


There is absolutely zero leverage for him and to be honest, he would be complete idiot if he went to rework his shot during his contract year. Specially on a new team where he needs to even prove himself to get opportunity to play.

His percentages wouldn't have gone down any from reworking his shot into normal form. His percentages are absolutely embarrassing relative to the shots he takes. Starting from 0 you could hit his percentages putting in 2 hours a day for a summer with quicker, better form.

He's worth less money for not fixing anything at all this off-season.

I disagree with this. He's making his terrible shot at decent percentages (ignoring the glaring lack of defensive attention). Reworking what feels natural to someone has a high chance of making it even worse short term.

I agree he's worth less due to not improving. But I understand his hesitancy under the circumstances. I think he should focus more on physical strength. I actually see his ceiling as a point-4 or maybe point-3 who uses his frame and strength moreso than his speed, because that will never exist.

[dougthonus]

I disagree with this. He's making his terrible shot at decent percentages (ignoring the glaring lack of defensive attention). Reworking what feels natural to someone has a high chance of making it even worse short term.

I guarantee you if you put 2 hours a day into shooting 3s with a shooting coach for one summer, you could shoot 32% on 3 pointers where you are wide open. This isn't NBA athlete stuff, this is "any person with enough upper body strength and conditioning to practice 2 hours a day could achieve this" stuff.

[League Circles]

Reworking your shot is not as simple and easy as you guys think . Do you guys play basketball ?

I went from Giddey like form that I had used for 8 years of somewhat regular play to good shooting form in a single summer working with a shooting coach for an hour a week for maybe 10 weeks and working on my own another couple hours a week, break even point on being a better shooter reworking my form was probably like 5 weeks.

I don't mean this in the sense of saying it is the same, but relative to your point of "do you play basketball", I have gone through the exact exercise at the rec level.

If Giddey was solid and reworking his form to get to really good, that'd be tough, but being poor and reworking your form to just get back to poor isn't that hard.

Your transformation may not have been what you perceive.

If it was this easy you'd never see a Joakim Noah type.

Even if the short term risk isn't what we think it might be, surely that sentiment exists in the league to a substantial extent. Otherwise trainers and players wouldn't tolerate garbage form.

[burlydee]

Josh Giddey triple double was okay. But do ppl remember that time Caruso put up 8 and 3 while playing great D in the play-in? I mean we lost but, man, the hustle!

Some of you are more committed to your anti-Giddey takes than your significant others.