Is SGA an underrated scorer or was Kobe overrated?

[One_and_Done]

Different eras, if Kobe played today and had 4 shooters around him he'd be unguardable.

For shooters to help you, you actually need to be willing to pass the ball. That's the first problem. A number of other problems were also set out over the first few pages.

He was a willing passer when he had the good shooting around him; he passed to the Machine, Fisher, Farmar and Rad. I get disliking his game, but don't pretend he didn't do these things when he had the right personnel around him.

He was a guy famous for telling his team mates to just 'get the damn rebound' instead of expecting him to pass. There are countless similar quotes from Kobe, or stories about Kobe, that are just as bad. His own coach wrote 2 different books that spend multiple chapters excoriating Kobe for his selfishness, including when it came to passing, and his team mates annoyance about it.

To describe him as a willing passer is completely at odds with his actual career. Kobe was so annoyed about the criticism he (deservedly) got for not passing enough that in the final quarter of game 7 in the 2006 playoffs he pointedly refused to shoot the ball, as a passive aggressive way of making a point. The Lakers proceeded to lose the game.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

For shooters to help you, you actually need to be willing to pass the ball. That's the first problem. A number of other problems were also set out over the first few pages.

He was a willing passer when he had the good shooting around him; he passed to the Machine, Fisher, Farmar and Rad. I get disliking his game, but don't pretend he didn't do these things when he had the right personnel around him.

He was a guy famous for telling his team mates to just 'get the damn rebound' instead of expecting him to pass. There are countless similar quotes from Kobe, or stories about Kobe, that are just as bad. His own coach wrote 2 different books that spend multiple chapters excoriating Kobe for his selfishness, including when it came to passing, and his team mates annoyance about it.

To describe him as a willing passer is completely at odds with his actual career. Kobe was so annoyed about the criticism he (deservedly) got for not passing enough that in the final quarter of game 7 in the 2006 playoffs he pointedly refused to shoot the ball, as a passive aggressive way of making a point. The Lakers proceeded to lose the game.

Cool, and I'm talking about 2008-2010 when he went to the finals 3 years and won 2 titles.


He was passing to shooters or getting hockey assists those years, if he had the ball all the time and the Lakers were 6th, 15th and 10th in threes attempted per game, someone was drawing defenders, and that someone also had to move the ball to get it to those shooters. The triangle won't generate three point looks if someone isn't passing the ball, but the narrative you're going with I can see you're not going to be reasonable.

You don't need to tell me about Kobe, I'm old to enough to have seen him. If he were like guys today his advanced stats would look better because he'd be mindful of them, he didn't care, he wanted to win and he did. It's why he has 5 titles and 2 titles on his own that I respect far more than KD's 2, because someone like KD cares about shaping and protecting his advanced stats to make himself look better.

[Primedeion]

Ok, champ. Keep telling us about the personal qualities of a dude you never met.

His coach knew him pretty well. How does he describe him in his 2 books? He basically spends multiple chapters ripping into Kobe.

I know you told him that, but he's clearly more interested in making personal yet fallacy laced attacks rather than paying attention to what you've now said TWICE.

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His coach went on to write another book with nothing but praise, but that doesn't count, right? That's the way it works with you people. Like I said, keep sippin that haterade, buddy.

[Primedeion]

FG% is useless as a measure of scoring efficiency. It's 2024 and people still don't get that? Kobe has the fifth highest career inflation adjusted scoring rate in basketball history, and his career scoring efficiency (104 TS+) was only slightly worse than guys like Larry Bird's.

Don't get me started on the gap between them as postseason scorers.

Kobe's career average over 20 years: 27 pts per 75 on +2.5 relative TS

SGA career average: 21.5 pts per 75 on +0.6 relative TS

LMAO they aren't even on the same planet. Stop the disrespect.

I watched the era, and Kobe took SO many dumb contested shots and there is no denying it. That was the product on court. He would get hot and make everything every now and then but he took bad shots consistently.

You go on about adjusting stuff for era. That is not a given.

It's a literal fact that his career relative scoring rate was only slightly worse than Larry Bird's. It doesn't matter what you think, champ. It's a fact. And not only did he post strong scoring efficiency consistently over his prime (106 TS+ from 01-09), but he did it while maintaining an incredibly high scoring rate.

I'll take FACTS over your crappy and biased eye test.

[One_and_Done]

He was a willing passer when he had the good shooting around him; he passed to the Machine, Fisher, Farmar and Rad. I get disliking his game, but don't pretend he didn't do these things when he had the right personnel around him.

He was a guy famous for telling his team mates to just 'get the damn rebound' instead of expecting him to pass. There are countless similar quotes from Kobe, or stories about Kobe, that are just as bad. His own coach wrote 2 different books that spend multiple chapters excoriating Kobe for his selfishness, including when it came to passing, and his team mates annoyance about it.

To describe him as a willing passer is completely at odds with his actual career. Kobe was so annoyed about the criticism he (deservedly) got for not passing enough that in the final quarter of game 7 in the 2006 playoffs he pointedly refused to shoot the ball, as a passive aggressive way of making a point. The Lakers proceeded to lose the game.

Cool, and I'm talking about 2008-2010 when he went to the finals 3 years and won 2 titles.


He was passing to shooters or getting hockey assists those years, if he had the ball all the time and the Lakers were 6th, 15th and 10th in threes attempted per game, someone was drawing defenders, and that someone also had to move the ball to get it to those shooters. The triangle won't generate three point looks if someone isn't passing the ball, but the narrative you're going with I can see you're not going to be reasonable.

You don't need to tell me about Kobe, I'm old to enough to have seen him. If he were like guys today his advanced stats would look better because he'd be mindful of them, he didn't care, he wanted to win and he did. It's why he has 5 titles and 2 titles on his own that I respect far more than KD's 2, because someone like KD cares about shaping and protecting his advanced stats to make himself look better.

Phil coached him those years too, and his 2nd book written after it has many of the same criticisms. Kobe has so many bad quotes after bad shooting nights, that show a lack of awareness, that it's impossible to make this argument. When you handle the ball as much as Kobe, you'll accumulate assists, but he was far from a willing passer.

His shot diet was also bad for today's game, and wasn't optimal for his own era bit he refused to change it no matter how much coaches pushed him to.

[OkcSinceSGA]

The thing that is making it hard to pick Kobe here for me is... his shot selection and IQ. Let's say hypothetically Kobe becomes a more efficient shooter today because defenses are less physical right? So instead of his normal 27 ppg, he jumps up to the 32-33 ppg range. I'll say that's the reality. But the bigger issue with Kobe that harmed him was his MIND. He was a brilliant tactician, but he was also incredibly cocky and played with a lot of vendetta.

He was so focused at proving people wrong, exposing someone, sending a message that in today's game I think that would backfire more than it did in previous eras. He also has to deal with WAY more screens (often illegal) today when defending the HUGE volume of shooters.

The end result to me is a guy who's a much worse defender today, is a more efficient scorer, but still has a bad habit of trying to individually dominate without knowing when to pick his spots, when to playmake etc.

SGA would probably be the slightly better scorer today. He would put up less shots, and a couple less ppg... but he also wouldn't shoot you out of any games like Kobe, and he involves teammates better. He's a WAY better leader than Kobe ever was (he's closer to a Steve Nash mentally. Fierce as hell, and will play bloodied and take abuse, but still an outstanding floor general and team guy).

[xchange55]

Kobe scored 30+ just 3X in his entire 20 year career. Kobe could score 45 points in his sleep.

These 2 statements seem to contradict each other.

Kobe became popular becaue he was a Laker, won championships, competed hard and could make difficult shots. His scoring efficiency was not great - so to me he's a volume scorer. When you look at guys like Jordan, Steph and SGA, they score a lot of points and at much higher shooting percentage; while also making high degree difficulty shots. To me those are your pure scorers. Kobe is basically like your better version of AI. Now with that said, Kobe is one of the best volume scorers of all time.

[Hair Jordan]

Kobe scored 30+ just 3X in his entire 20 year career. Kobe could score 45 points in his sleep.

These 2 statements seem to contradict each other.

Kobe became popular becaue he was a Laker, won championships, competed hard and could make difficult shots. His scoring efficiency was not great - so to me he's a volume scorer. When you look at guys like Jordan, Steph and SGA, they score a lot of points and at much higher shooting percentage; while also making high degree difficulty shots. To me those are your pure scorers. Kobe is basically like your better version of AI. Now with that said, Kobe is one of the best volume scorers of all time.

Not really a contradiction. I’m just pointing out that while Kobe was a volume scorer on par with anyone who’s ever lived, he only averaged 30+ 3X in a 20 year career, not nearly as much as one might think. One of those seasons was exactly 30.0 PPG so it was almost just 2X vs 3X. SGA is about to match that through 7 years and with fewer shots on better efficiency. Hence my original question; is SGA underrated as a scorer or was Kobe overrated?

[tsherkin]

So let's play with some numbers.

From 2000 - 2010, Kobe's shot selection went like this:

23.4% in the RA, 11.7% from 3-10, 16.9% from 10-16, 28.9% from 16-23 feet, 19.1% from 3, with a .391 FTr and 84.1% FT.

And he shot 63.3%, 43.8%, 43.4%, 41.1% and 34.1%. This while taking 21.5 FGA/g in 39.4%.

That FTr and that rim proportion... you can believe that he did that all with cutting and post game, but he drove aggressively as well.

Shai, for the record, takes 22.4% of his shots in the RA.

League-average FG% from 0-3 feet in 2000, 2004 and 2010 was: 63.3%, 59.2% and 61.3%.

In 2024, it was 69.9%. So far this year, 68.9%.

If ALL you change is Kobe's FG% at the rim, you produce 28.7 ppg on 56.9% TS on average. And this assumes that today's spacing doesn't make his life easier for getting to the rim. And that's assuming he only produces at league average, when guys less athletic and less skillful are doing much better.

But it does unearth a problem: Kobe's love of the long two, if unchanged, would be a major impediment to his efficiency. He was pretty good at it, especially in volume, but nearly 30% of his shots coming from there really sinks him relative to contemporary efficiency. Even at 70% in the RA, he still ends up about 0.5% below league average.

So it all comes down to how much you think he could adapt to today's game, and how much success he'd have around the basket. He had size, he could drive, he could post, he could move without the ball, he was strong at the foul line. He had any 3pt shooting at all, enough to be worth guarding out there. The skill set is there, the athletic tools too. So the main variable we keep coming back to is how much he'd focus on popping for those 20-footers versus going all the way to the rim. ANd in his era, it was a little harder to get all the way there than it is now, which is why the at-rim FG% average is so much higher.

If you look at Shai, he shot 73% at the rim last year and is almost at 76% this season. If you put Kobe at 73% without reducing his long two proportion, he's already at 57.7% TS, which is +0.3% rTS compared to 2025's league average so far. So if you project ANY sort of improvement in his shot selection, it becomes less and less concerning to think about his scoring in today's environment.

But it all hinges on whether you think he was completely incapable of adaptation or not. And this from a dude who cultivated his post game, increased his 3pt usage and did evolve his game some over time.

Just some food for thought.

[SkyBill40]

His coach knew him pretty well. How does he describe him in his 2 books? He basically spends multiple chapters ripping into Kobe.

I know you told him that, but he's clearly more interested in making personal yet fallacy laced attacks rather than paying attention to what you've now said TWICE.

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His coach went on to write another book with nothing but praise, but that doesn't count, right? That's the way it works with you people. Like I said, keep sippin that haterade, buddy.

Sure, my dude. Sure. "You people" is laughable. Because you're either a knob bobber for someone or you're a hater in the minds of simpletons like yourself. But it's cool. Carry on.

I don't really have a dog in this fight as I'm not really that high on EITHER player. But watching you Kobe fans boil over is priceless entertainment.

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[One_and_Done]

So let's play with some numbers.

From 2000 - 2010, Kobe's shot selection went like this:

23.4% in the RA, 11.7% from 3-10, 16.9% from 10-16, 28.9% from 16-23 feet, 19.1% from 3, with a .391 FTr and 84.1% FT.

And he shot 63.3%, 43.8%, 43.4%, 41.1% and 34.1%. This while taking 21.5 FGA/g in 39.4%.

That FTr and that rim proportion... you can believe that he did that all with cutting and post game, but he drove aggressively as well.

Shai, for the record, takes 22.4% of his shots in the RA.

League-average FG% from 0-3 feet in 2000, 2004 and 2010 was: 63.3%, 59.2% and 61.3%.

In 2024, it was 69.9%. So far this year, 68.9%.

If ALL you change is Kobe's FG% at the rim, you produce 28.7 ppg on 56.9% TS on average. And this assumes that today's spacing doesn't make his life easier for getting to the rim. And that's assuming he only produces at league average, when guys less athletic and less skillful are doing much better.

But it does unearth a problem: Kobe's love of the long two, if unchanged, would be a major impediment to his efficiency. He was pretty good at it, especially in volume, but nearly 30% of his shots coming from there really sinks him relative to contemporary efficiency. Even at 70% in the RA, he still ends up about 0.5% below league average.

So it all comes down to how much you think he could adapt to today's game, and how much success he'd have around the basket. He had size, he could drive, he could post, he could move without the ball, he was strong at the foul line. He had any 3pt shooting at all, enough to be worth guarding out there. The skill set is there, the athletic tools too. So the main variable we keep coming back to is how much he'd focus on popping for those 20-footers versus going all the way to the rim. ANd in his era, it was a little harder to get all the way there than it is now, which is why the at-rim FG% average is so much higher.

If you look at Shai, he shot 73% at the rim last year and is almost at 76% this season. If you put Kobe at 73% without reducing his long two proportion, he's already at 57.7% TS, which is +0.3% rTS compared to 2025's league average so far. So if you project ANY sort of improvement in his shot selection, it becomes less and less concerning to think about his scoring in today's environment.

But it all hinges on whether you think he was completely incapable of adaptation or not. And this from a dude who cultivated his post game, increased his 3pt usage and did evolve his game some over time.

Just some food for thought.

All this doesn't factor in that today's players are better on average than they were in Kobe’s day. Also important, is how they ate better today. In 2002 your 4 man was usually a big man who was slow of foot, and paid to hit the glass inside. Today the 4 man is a perimeter defender, who is much better at chasing wings around on the perimeter. There are fewer places to attack as a wing when you try to iso; which is 100% what Kobe would try to do. Today's systems are also far more complex. I picture Kobe trying to play in Memphis offensive system today and almost choke on my milk. It would be impossible for him.

Another underduscussed point is the increased energy you have to expend on D today. In Kobe's prime it was easy for him to cheat on defense and loaf around. You watch old games and most guys are standing around while 1 dude isolates. Today Kobe would be forced to run around like a lunatic on D, and that energy spent on D would reduce his offensive impact. I realise he wasn't in his prime anymore, but it's telling how bad Kobe looked on D in his last 2 seasons in the NBA. By 2015 and 2016 alot of new ideas had taken hold across the league, thanks in part to the success of the 2014 Spurs and the Warriors, and offenses started to more closely resemble today's offenses. Kobe looked compkeyely disinterested in chasing guys all over the court on D in those years.

[2LeTTeRS]

Depends on what you value more - consistency or explosiveness. SGA rarely has a game that deserves headlines on ESPN but he consistently gives you 25+ day in and day out. Kobe might give you 56 in 3 quarters or have a whole month averaging 40 but will throw in a few games in the teens to bring the averages down.

I think the explosiveness is scarier and more memorable but the consistency is probably more impressive. At the end of the day though this only matters if SGA can win a few championships and keep this up for a decade or more. I'm rooting for him (and Luka) to accomplish it but it remains to be seen.

[TheShow2021]

No way Kobe averages 40+ in this or any other era. His best season was 35.4 PPG in 2005-06 on 27.2 shots per game. His team was lousy (45-37)

What Kobe did in 2005-06 was one of the more impressive feats in NBA history, to carry a team of Odom, Smush, Kwame, Mihm and Luke to 45 wins (2.7 NetRtg on 7th hardest schedule), and one James Jones 3 pointer away from making the 2nd round of the playoffs. On par with a Herculean Jokic carry job.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Depends on what you value more - consistency or explosiveness. SGA rarely has a game that deserves headlines on ESPN but he consistently gives you 25+ day in and day out. Kobe might give you 56 in 3 quarters or have a whole month averaging 40 but will throw in a few games in the teens to bring the averages down.

I think the explosiveness is scarier and more memorable but the consistency is probably more impressive. At the end of the day though this only matters if SGA can win a few championships and keep this up for a decade or more. I'm rooting for him (and Luka) to accomplish it but it remains to be seen.

SGA is more like the classic Draymond story of Kawhi. You don't realize how much he's scored because it's just steady and relentless, then you look up and see he's at 25+ again. It's less explosive usually as you said, but he's more consistent game to game.

[One_and_Done]

No way Kobe averages 40+ in this or any other era. His best season was 35.4 PPG in 2005-06 on 27.2 shots per game. His team was lousy (45-37)

What Kobe did in 2005-06 was one of the more impressive feats in NBA history, to carry a team of Odom, Smush, Kwame, Mihm and Luke to 45 wins (2.7 NetRtg on 7th hardest schedule), and one James Jones 3 pointer away from making the 2nd round of the playoffs. On par with a Herculean Jokic carry job.

That really isn't impressive. Odom would be easily the 2nd best player on any of the 2002 or 2003 Spurs, or the 09 & 10 Cavs, to cite just 2 players with more impressive carry jobs. I could have cited a dozen more easily. Kwame and Mihm (before he got hurt) were solid 5 men. Luke Walton was a bench player, but he was a pretty decent one. The only bad player there is Smush, who too much focus is placed on. D.George was a solid bench player too.

[Michael Beasley]

Wake me up when SGA gets past the second round. Until then he's the most overrated player in the league.

[Hair Jordan]

SGA goes 14-19 tonight for 35 points.

[Camby_Bamby]

Shot selection being conflated with basketball IQ, and shooting percentage in a daily realgm Kobe-hate thread during the holidays.

[LarsV8]

Kobe is fairly overrated. A great goat list candidate, but insignificant in who is better conversations.

[One_and_Done]

Wake me up when SGA gets past the second round. Until then he's the most overrated player in the league.

Kobe's 09 and 10 title teams wouldn't make it out of the 1st round in today's league. They might not even make the West play in honestly.