Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[RoteSchroder]

You have a family?

I like how you lost the argument, so you just resort to trolling. It's not that big of a deal. My mind can be changed with evidence, unlike yours.

Can it? I don’t think it can, hence why I wouldn’t waste my time posting the evidence. I know how this sort of thing goes.

The stats are all easily accessible online. You don’t have to include Klay’s numbers post 2019. Just go with the stats between 2014-2019 when they’re both in their respective primes. The superior WS, VORP, BPM, AST%, defensive stats, video evidence, professional and public opinions. It’s all there for you. Klay was a better shooter, but not more impactful to those teams winning.

Don’t ask me to do your homework for you. Put it in the work yourself if you’re actually open minded.

Not a single one of your statements counters any of my points. You dodged the subject or didn't want to read. How can you convince anyone without addressing the point.

1) Draymond falls off a cliff without his superstars. In the season Curry+Klay was injured, your "superior" stats showed that Draymond Green had a BPM of -0.2, VORP of 0.5, WS of 0.044

2) Video evidence shows that Draymond gets away with fouls due to preferential treatment. Bogut not only admits it, but he claims it's due to playing with the splash brothers.

3) Defensive role players are easier to find than stars. Defense can also be cumulative, it doesn't need to be centered on one player (and it was cumulative on GSW's championship teams in the first place). E.g. You still easily get a championship level team with Curry/Klay/Marion/Tyson + supporting cast Iggy/Wiggins/Livingston/etc.


Response 1) "Public opinions". You said you'd go to the GB. Have you seen the GB? They're saying the exact same thing.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2426158

Draymond should sign with the WWE. He really shouldn't be allowed on a court. But the NBA hasn't been willing to take a no-tolerance approach to his antics.

Rewatch his games and count all the uncalled fouls by him. It's ridiculous.

I'm so tired of seeing him do non-basketball plays like this

Suspension? Lol they’re not even going to suspend him for a game. This is Draymond

Dude should go into politics. For some reason he gets a free pass for everything.

its gonna be an absolute joke when he goes into the hall of fame

nobody cashed in more on riding the coattails
of klay, steph, and durant

All psychopaths will respond to is deterrence or being banished, & so far he's gotten neither. Shows how the NBA prioritizes their big market teams & stars. It's not even that he's a star. They want to give Steph the best chance to win, so the hooligan runs free.

Gonna go down as the most overrated player of all time. Without Steph, no one even knows he exists.

You wanna ask "professionals", let's ask some people who aren't afraid to speak their mind, like Rudy Gobert.

Public opinion and professional opinions can both be invalid if there's bias at play. Using this reasoning actually works against you anyhow. In the "top 5 most hated players" thread, Draymond is on half the lists.

Response 2) Using BPM, winshares and VORP without understanding the stat and examining context is lazy.

A) BPM/DBPM is affected by rebounds, assists, stocks and is particularly flawed for guards/wings. It undervalues players who's impact doesn't show up in the boxscores. Guess who gets lots of rebounds, assists and stocks?

B) VORP is a function of BPM: [BPM – (-2.0)] * (% of minutes played)*(team games/82)

C) Winshares also uses rebounds, assists, FTM, FTA, stocks

D) Unreliability of these box score-based advanced stats:
Klay's DBPM is currently twice as good as his peak defensive years. Steph Curry has consistently had a better DBPM than Klay, but you don't see GSW using Steph as a PoA defender like Klay. Klay takes on the opposing teams best perimeter players, including PG's that Steph is supposed to guard.

Durant's OBPM took a hit when he joined GSW, maybe because some of his skill set overlaps with Steph/Klay. Bogut had his best years in GSW and fell off a cliff once he got to Dallas. In some seasons, Russell Westbrook had higher DBPM's than all-NBA defenders. That doesn't mean RWB was an all-NBA defender.

Response 3) In your 7 replies to me and in our exchange, you haven't provided a single piece of evidence aside from trolling and your opinion. You haven't answered a single point that I made. Clearly, I've done more "homework" and provided more substance than you. Count the number of links and stats I provided, 20+. You, zero.

"Do your own homework", "you can't be convinced" is just a way of dodging the argument. Do you think YOU can be convinced? I highly doubt it. Your own claims even work against you.

[Indeed]

"Scottie Barnes, excellent talent. I don't know if he's the guy you build around. Could he be a nice compliment to another star?"

"They need that unquestioned alpha dog."

Was watching the Memphis feed, they are pretty fair pointing out the right and wrong calls between both teams.

As for the comment, I don't think he answered if Barnes can be a nice compliment player neither.

The answer is a resounding yes, he'd be a nice compliment to a #1 scoring option.

I think he needs that consistent 3 point shot with perhaps capable pull up 3.

He is only limited with a mid range shot, which often requires fake away or move to the side to create space, as he has no other technique to get separation. So the easiest way is to get a pull up 3 for shot creation, where defenders would be more tolerate and let him take that then a mid range with defender started to put a hand up against it.

Currently, I don't think he is even in Olynky level of offense (Olynky has better footwork in the post, better passing), so it is hard for me to imagine he is a nice compliment to another star (at near max).

[wegotthabeet]

I like how you lost the argument, so you just resort to trolling. It's not that big of a deal. My mind can be changed with evidence, unlike yours.

Can it? I don’t think it can, hence why I wouldn’t waste my time posting the evidence. I know how this sort of thing goes.

The stats are all easily accessible online. You don’t have to include Klay’s numbers post 2019. Just go with the stats between 2014-2019 when they’re both in their respective primes. The superior WS, VORP, BPM, AST%, defensive stats, video evidence, professional and public opinions. It’s all there for you. Klay was a better shooter, but not more impactful to those teams winning.

Don’t ask me to do your homework for you. Put it in the work yourself if you’re actually open minded.

Not a single one of your statements counters any of my points. You dodged the subject or didn't want to read. How can you convince anyone without addressing the point.

1) Draymond falls off a cliff without his superstars. In the season Curry+Klay was injured, your "superior" stats showed that Draymond Green had a BPM of -0.2, VORP of 0.5, WS of 0.044

2) Video evidence shows that Draymond gets away with fouls due to preferential treatment. Bogut not only admits it, but he claims it's due to playing with the splash brothers.

3) Defensive role players are easier to find than stars. Defense can also be cumulative, it doesn't need to be centered on one player (and it was cumulative on GSW's championship teams in the first place). E.g. You still easily get a championship level team with Curry/Klay/Marion/Tyson + supporting cast Iggy/Wiggins/Livingston/etc.


Response 1) "Public opinions". You said you'd go to the GB. Have you seen the GB? They're saying the exact same thing.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2426158

Draymond should sign with the WWE. He really shouldn't be allowed on a court. But the NBA hasn't been willing to take a no-tolerance approach to his antics.

Rewatch his games and count all the uncalled fouls by him. It's ridiculous.

I'm so tired of seeing him do non-basketball plays like this

Suspension? Lol they’re not even going to suspend him for a game. This is Draymond

Dude should go into politics. For some reason he gets a free pass for everything.

its gonna be an absolute joke when he goes into the hall of fame

nobody cashed in more on riding the coattails
of klay, steph, and durant

All psychopaths will respond to is deterrence or being banished, & so far he's gotten neither. Shows how the NBA prioritizes their big market teams & stars. It's not even that he's a star. They want to give Steph the best chance to win, so the hooligan runs free.

Gonna go down as the most overrated player of all time. Without Steph, no one even knows he exists.

You wanna ask "professionals", let's ask some people who aren't afraid to speak their mind, like Rudy Gobert.

Public opinion and professional opinions can both be invalid if there's bias at play. Using this reasoning actually works against you anyhow. In the "top 5 most hated players" thread, Draymond is on half the lists.

Response 2) Using BPM, winshares and VORP without understanding the stat and examining context is lazy.

A) BPM/DBPM is affected by rebounds, assists, stocks and is particularly flawed for guards/wings. It undervalues players who's impact doesn't show up in the boxscores. Guess who gets lots of rebounds, assists and stocks?

B) VORP is a function of BPM: [BPM – (-2.0)] * (% of minutes played)*(team games/82)

C) Winshares also uses rebounds, assists, FTM, FTA, stocks

D) Unreliability of these box score-based advanced stats:
Klay's DBPM is currently twice as good as his peak defensive years. Steph Curry has consistently had a better DBPM than Klay, but you don't see GSW using Steph as a PoA defender like Klay. Klay takes on the opposing teams best perimeter players, including PG's that Steph is supposed to guard.

Durant's OBPM took a hit when he joined GSW, maybe because some of his skill set overlaps with Steph/Klay. Bogut had his best years in GSW and fell off a cliff once he got to Dallas. In some seasons, Russell Westbrook had higher DBPM's than all-NBA defenders. That doesn't mean RWB was an all-NBA defender.

Response 3) In your 7 replies to me and in our exchange, you haven't provided a single piece of evidence aside from trolling and your opinion. You haven't answered a single point that I made. Clearly, I've done more "homework" and provided more substance than you. Count the number of links and stats I provided, 20+. You, zero.

"Do your own homework", "you can't be convinced" is just a way of dodging the argument. Do you think YOU can be convinced? I highly doubt it. Your own claims even work against you.

I appreciate the work you put into this honestly. A lot of this is recency bias rather than my initial comment about who was more impactful during their dynastic run. I don’t think Klay would’ve been able to carry a team as the number one option. The whole point was who’s the number two next to Curry and it’s just way easier to find someone who’s an excellent spot up shooter than what prime Draymond provided.

If Scottie can be that, he can be a number two on a championship contender.

[Indeed]

Can it? I don’t think it can, hence why I wouldn’t waste my time posting the evidence. I know how this sort of thing goes.

The stats are all easily accessible online. You don’t have to include Klay’s numbers post 2019. Just go with the stats between 2014-2019 when they’re both in their respective primes. The superior WS, VORP, BPM, AST%, defensive stats, video evidence, professional and public opinions. It’s all there for you. Klay was a better shooter, but not more impactful to those teams winning.

Don’t ask me to do your homework for you. Put it in the work yourself if you’re actually open minded.

Not a single one of your statements counters any of my points. You dodged the subject or didn't want to read. How can you convince anyone without addressing the point.

1) Draymond falls off a cliff without his superstars. In the season Curry+Klay was injured, your "superior" stats showed that Draymond Green had a BPM of -0.2, VORP of 0.5, WS of 0.044

2) Video evidence shows that Draymond gets away with fouls due to preferential treatment. Bogut not only admits it, but he claims it's due to playing with the splash brothers.

3) Defensive role players are easier to find than stars. Defense can also be cumulative, it doesn't need to be centered on one player (and it was cumulative on GSW's championship teams in the first place). E.g. You still easily get a championship level team with Curry/Klay/Marion/Tyson + supporting cast Iggy/Wiggins/Livingston/etc.


Response 1) "Public opinions". You said you'd go to the GB. Have you seen the GB? They're saying the exact same thing.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2426158

Draymond should sign with the WWE. He really shouldn't be allowed on a court. But the NBA hasn't been willing to take a no-tolerance approach to his antics.

Rewatch his games and count all the uncalled fouls by him. It's ridiculous.

I'm so tired of seeing him do non-basketball plays like this

Suspension? Lol they’re not even going to suspend him for a game. This is Draymond

Dude should go into politics. For some reason he gets a free pass for everything.

its gonna be an absolute joke when he goes into the hall of fame

nobody cashed in more on riding the coattails
of klay, steph, and durant

All psychopaths will respond to is deterrence or being banished, & so far he's gotten neither. Shows how the NBA prioritizes their big market teams & stars. It's not even that he's a star. They want to give Steph the best chance to win, so the hooligan runs free.

Gonna go down as the most overrated player of all time. Without Steph, no one even knows he exists.

You wanna ask "professionals", let's ask some people who aren't afraid to speak their mind, like Rudy Gobert.

Public opinion and professional opinions can both be invalid if there's bias at play. Using this reasoning actually works against you anyhow. In the "top 5 most hated players" thread, Draymond is on half the lists.

Response 2) Using BPM, winshares and VORP without understanding the stat and examining context is lazy.

A) BPM/DBPM is affected by rebounds, assists, stocks and is particularly flawed for guards/wings. It undervalues players who's impact doesn't show up in the boxscores. Guess who gets lots of rebounds, assists and stocks?

B) VORP is a function of BPM: [BPM – (-2.0)] * (% of minutes played)*(team games/82)

C) Winshares also uses rebounds, assists, FTM, FTA, stocks

D) Unreliability of these box score-based advanced stats:
Klay's DBPM is currently twice as good as his peak defensive years. Steph Curry has consistently had a better DBPM than Klay, but you don't see GSW using Steph as a PoA defender like Klay. Klay takes on the opposing teams best perimeter players, including PG's that Steph is supposed to guard.

Durant's OBPM took a hit when he joined GSW, maybe because some of his skill set overlaps with Steph/Klay. Bogut had his best years in GSW and fell off a cliff once he got to Dallas. In some seasons, Russell Westbrook had higher DBPM's than all-NBA defenders. That doesn't mean RWB was an all-NBA defender.

Response 3) In your 7 replies to me and in our exchange, you haven't provided a single piece of evidence aside from trolling and your opinion. You haven't answered a single point that I made. Clearly, I've done more "homework" and provided more substance than you. Count the number of links and stats I provided, 20+. You, zero.

"Do your own homework", "you can't be convinced" is just a way of dodging the argument. Do you think YOU can be convinced? I highly doubt it. Your own claims even work against you.

I appreciate the work you put into this honestly. A lot of this is recency bias rather than my initial comment about who was more impactful during their dynastic run. I don’t think Klay would’ve been able to carry a team as the number one option. The whole point was who’s the number two next to Curry and it’s just way easier to find someone who’s an excellent spot up shooter than what prime Draymond provided.

If Scottie can be that, he can be a number two on a championship contender.

Sadly, Barnes isnt quick enough to be a lockdown nor Draymond, otherwise, we wouldnt need Poeltl nor our de. He will need to be a moment shooter like Klay (or Dick if not at Klay level).

You can make a case of Sabonas as a max, or Horford.

[RoteSchroder]

I appreciate the work you put into this honestly. A lot of this is recency bias rather than my initial comment about who was more impactful during their dynastic run. I don’t think Klay would’ve been able to carry a team as the number one option. The whole point was who’s the number two next to Curry and it’s just way easier to find someone who’s an excellent spot up shooter than what prime Draymond provided.

If Scottie can be that, he can be a number two on a championship contender.

Draymond was necessary because his skill set doesn’t overlap with Curry’s whereas Klay’s does. Obviously, the better a team is at difference facets of the game, the better their chances of winning. Based on the make up of the team, if they lost Draymond, they basically have no competent big man (post-Bogut). If they lost Klay, they still have a few wings who can produce some wing play.

But in terms of who I’d want to start a team with, I’d take the splash bros. The combo with Klay gives you something special and something elite, whereas Draymond is more replaceable from a management perspective (e.g. Iggy’s defense was also key).

Klay is probably a top 5 shooter in NBA history, so a little more than an excellent spot up shooter. He’s He’s also a movement shooter. Ray/Reggie were better on ball, but Klay’s a better 1 on 1 defender.

Among various sites, Klay’s ranked as the #4, 2, 2, 4, 7, 3rd best shooter of all time.

Scottie could be a #2 based off of all round play (more of a PG than Draymond, much better scorer).

In terms of what is stylistically better for a team, it just depends on the team. In the Raptors championship year, I’d take Klay over Scottie and Draymond for instance. We already had great defense, but was sorely missing a reliable scorer and perimeter threat outside of Kawhi. We got lucky with FVV heating up near the end.

[Valard]

I haven't followed this thread at all.

Scottie is not an all star. Any votes for him are dumb.

[TimeForChange]

Read on Twitter

[Naysorn]

Read on Twitter

and this right here is why darko is perfect coach rn and why we can't focus on wins and losses and also stats

let franz, cade and mobley get the stats rn.

we gon get it back when we acc wanna win.

[Thaddy]

He's been worse this year than last year. That's just statistically true.

[Scase]

Read on Twitter

B-b-b-b-but he had 8 turnovers!

People complaining have no interest in playing the long game.

[ATLTimekeeper]

You just will not get Darko to ever say anything critical about Scottie. He literally is praising his focus after 8 TOs and throwing an inbounds off Poeltl's head.

[PushDaRock]

hoooooo man they're developing Scottie like Magic, league is officially on notice!!!

[PushDaRock]

You just will not get Darko to ever say anything critical about Scottie. He literally is praising his focus after 8 TOs and throwing an inbounds off Poeltl's head.

in fairness it was an outlet pass

[TakeYourHeart]

Read on Twitter

Lol the coach just came out and said we're playing bad basketball on purpose.

All you can do is trust the process and hope it pay dividends in the future. Right now, it's a brutal watch.

[PushDaRock]

Read on Twitter

Lol the coach just came out and said we're playing bad basketball on purpose.

All you can do is trust the process and hope it pay dividends in the future. Right now, it's a brutal watch.

I think the defensive system in place serves the same purpose. If we were trying to win games, we would be hiding our bad defenders as opposed to having them press up on ball handlers and allow breakdown after breakdown and fouling the most of any team in the league.

[anotherhomer]

what Darko is saying....this is the first time, Scottie had the ball many times in his hand exclusively.....

it's an experimental to see if he transition for the ultimate role/compliment player to true star player

Masai said it best last year "we have to see if Barnes is that guy", and now's the time to take that gamble....

so there will be a lot of growing pains. as this is a work in progress
however, he's starting to flash more and more signs he could be that Cade-lite, Luka-lite type player, or Chris Webber type....

this is the reason to let Scottie go through these growing pains

[ArthurVandelay]

You just will not get Darko to ever say anything critical about Scottie. He literally is praising his focus after 8 TOs and throwing an inbounds off Poeltl's head.

in fairness it was an outlet pass

And off shoulder

[HumbleRen]

Darko can say whatever excuses he wants for Scottie. It still doesn’t change the fact that Scottie is unable to bend defences, being a great passer isn’t good enough.

He needs to be able to play make and that only comes with being a downhill threat with the ball in his hands otherwise you’re essentially just a souped up version of Draymond Green on offence. Don’t get me wrong, any team would love to have that but it’s not lead ball handler material.

[MEDIC]

Read on Twitter

Lol the coach just came out and said we're playing bad basketball on purpose.

All you can do is trust the process and hope it pay dividends in the future. Right now, it's a brutal watch.

Yeah. It's seems like the priority is individual.development rather than team development, which leads to.losses.

That's all fine......especially for rookies and sophmores, but some.of these guys that have already been in the league 3+ years are eventually going to get frustrated with it & start to lose faith in the coach. Darko is going to start to look incompetent in the players eyes & that is starting to show now. Darko running out on the court like a maniac doesn't help his situation.

For Scottie, the team was decent when he arrived & has gotten worse every season since.. IQ & RJ have already been through these years of growing pains & want to move on & start winning in the playoffs. Thats where these guys are at in their careers..

I am sure the rest of the vets just don't take.any of this seriously (Kelly) & others are just annoyed with it (Poeltl).

You have IQ & RJ coming from Thibs program & Poeltl coming here after being coached by Pops and Duncan.

I am sure the organization hasn't looked overly impressive to some of these guys.

[720]

Jokic became a 26+ scorer his age 25 season. Before that he spent 4 seasons hovering around 16-20 points per game. He has mentioned how it took awhile for his mentality to change, from being pass first team player to a 1st option scorer. I am not saying Scottie is as good as Jokic. But I strongly believe he can and will become a 24+ level scorer with the right development.