Relative to other MVPs, how will Embiid's MVP season be remembered?

[LA Bird]

- Most MVP winners who weren't the best player at least had some kind of narrative arguments, whether it was the team having the best record in the conference/league or some historical statistical achievement. Embiid had neither. Sixers were 3rd in the East, won at a higher rate without him, and he had fewer wins than Jokic in the regular season.

I think the narrative was "Embiid is just as good as Jokic and isn't getting his due." A laughably wrong narrative, but it was out there in a big way around that time. Embiid was scoring like a madman, too, which is more "alpha" than Jokic's standard fare, or whatever.

I think the idea Embid was not a worthy MVP is pretty silly, especially given what we saw in 2024. Embid was as good or better than Jokic when he played in the regular season for 2 years, which is of course the only part of the seaosn that should actually matter for the MVP award

2024 Embiid is not 2023 Embiid.

- Much better team record (31-8 vs 43-23) and WOWY difference (+38 wins)
- Record setting scoring: 1st in points per possession and 2nd only to 62 Wilt per minute
- Huge improvements in 3pt percentage (33 -> 39) and assist percentage (23 -> 32)
- Far better rim protection numbers (-10.5 vs -1.4 in FG% difference).

If Embiid wasn't injured in 2024, he would have a GOAT level RS peak worthy of MVP over Jokic. But this thread is about 2023 when his MVP case was arguably weaker than 2022 and very few complained about Embiid losing to Jokic that year even without playoffs.

[Hair Jordan]

His MVP will be remembered as completely narrative driven based on his childish and unbecoming whining when he lost the award to Jokic the previous season. Also, the media didn’t want to give Jokic the award three consecutive years, which is something that has happened only 3X in history, the last being in the mid ‘80’s. The stars aligned for Embiid during his MVP season. However, history won’t be kind when the review it 30 years from now, kinda like Malone getting his career achievement MVP over Jordan in ‘97. We all know what that was about. Same as Embiid’s trophy.

[OhayoKD]

I think the narrative was "Embiid is just as good as Jokic and isn't getting his due." A laughably wrong narrative, but it was out there in a big way around that time. Embiid was scoring like a madman, too, which is more "alpha" than Jokic's standard fare, or whatever.

I think the idea Embid was not a worthy MVP is pretty silly, especially given what we saw in 2024. Embid was as good or better than Jokic when he played in the regular season for 2 years, which is of course the only part of the seaosn that should actually matter for the MVP award

2024 Embiid is not 2023 Embiid.

2024 Embid is 2023 Embid in a context more like Jokic's 2023 and the results were significantly more impressive. I said Jokic was the rightful MVP in the 2023 POY but we got new evidence and I'm not going to pretend Embid wasn't Embid to ignore it. Embid's regular season play is far more deserving of one MVP than Jokic's has been of 3 never mind 4. The "timing" of Embid's health and situation being less convenient doesn't strike me as much of a reason to pretend Embid getting swept would be more representative of what they offered as RS players. Curry and Shai had stronger arguments over Jokic in 2022/2024 than Jokic does over 2023 Embid frankly.

- Far better rim protection numbers (-10.5 vs -1.4 in FG% difference).

By synergy Embid has been on an island with Gobert in terms of volume/effiency protecting the paint since well before 2023.

However, history won’t be kind when the review it 30 years from now, kinda like Malone getting his career achievement MVP over Jordan in ‘97. We all know what that was about. Same as Embiid’s trophy.

All the more reason to work towards people telling this sort of crap to lose their status as history-tellers and be replaced by people with an actual interest in history. Jokic is beyond lucky he has 3. His championships and playoff success after-the-fact is irrelevant to what the awards are supposed to represent.

On that note, anyone trying to argue Jordan was done hard by MVP voting should probably ask themselves how exactly Jordan got 2nd in 87 when a draft-mate was winning more with less...

[Doctor MJ]

Obviously Embiid had a great season in 2022-23, but it was overshadowed by the media narrative that his PR team pushed out implying anyone voting for Jokic was "racist". Then, out of nowhere, Jokic's numbers downshifted and became pedestrian until the playoffs during which he showed the league who the best player was. However, during the entire last month Embiid made it his mission to basically throw petty insults at Jokic and have his lackeys (i.e. Perkins) do his bidding.

It certainly wasn't a manufactured MVP, but will it be looked at as fondly in 20 years as it is today? Or will people look back and be stunned at the media campaign, Embiid's disappointing playoff run (RS: 33/10 on 54%, PS: 23/9 on 43%), and Jokic's all-time great playoff run (30/10/10) and wonder how Embiid won MVP?

If Embiid never does anything more of serious consequence in his career, I expect his MVP is going to be seen as a notorious lowlight in the history of the MVP, and yeah, the race baiting associated with the pro-Embiid cause will be central to the explanation that everyone knows.

[jalengreen]

The inertia for Embiid’s case was veryy strong on the night of April 4th (game 79/82) when:

- Embiid put up 52-13-6 on 20/25 FG (lol) with a +17 +/- in a 2 point win over the 54-25 Celtics
- Same night, Jokic dropped 14 points and 8 turnovers (-21 +/-) in a 21 point loss to the 20-60 Rockets

Obviously it’s reasonable to look at that and say, well that’s one game of an 82 game season, but we obviously know that recency bias is going to play a role for voters. When there’s a tightly contested MVP race and there’s a dramatic difference like that near the end of their seasons, it means that Embiid got the last word in and that matters.

I mostly say this to say that I don’t think it’s difficult to understand Embiid’s win without the idea that Perkins’ race comments played a role. It’s probably true that it’ll be remembered by folks, but I think people overweigh the impact.

Looking back at the timeline …

Perkins accused voters of racial bias on March 7th, 2023. This is very much remembered, naturally.

What might be less memorable is that Joel Embiid was inactive for a highly anticipated game in Denver on March 27, 2023. This was framed as a big deal! Speaking of Perkins …

“Joel Embiid is ducking that smoke... You cannot sit out this game... When it comes down to these matchups, I have a vote [for MVP]. I'm going to remember this moment."

Kendrick Perkins on Embiid not playing against Nikola Jokic tonight

The narrative momentum went heavily against Embiid at this point. The Nuggets had 7 games left after the win against Philly; Jokic probably just had to keep playing at an MVP level for those seven games to hold onto that momentum.

Instead, he played in 2/7 of the Nuggets remaining games, one of which was the aforementioned disaster vs Houston and the other was a 6 point performance in a loss to Utah.

So given that we know that recency bias (a known factor in award voting) went in favor of Embiid, voter fatigue (a known factor in award voting) went in favor of Embiid, it’s not hard to see how Embiid won without theorizing that white voters were scared of being labeled racist by Perkins or something.

[Woodsanity]

I think the narrative was "Embiid is just as good as Jokic and isn't getting his due." A laughably wrong narrative, but it was out there in a big way around that time. Embiid was scoring like a madman, too, which is more "alpha" than Jokic's standard fare, or whatever.

I think the idea Embid was not a worthy MVP is pretty silly, especially given what we saw in 2024. Embid was as good or better than Jokic when he played in the regular season for 2 years, which is of course the only part of the seaosn that should actually matter for the MVP award

2024 Embiid is not 2023 Embiid.

- Much better team record (31-8 vs 43-23) and WOWY difference (+38 wins)
- Record setting scoring: 1st in points per possession and 2nd only to 62 Wilt per minute
- Huge improvements in 3pt percentage (33 -> 39) and assist percentage (23 -> 32)
- Far better rim protection numbers (-10.5 vs -1.4 in FG% difference).

If Embiid wasn't injured in 2024, he would have a GOAT level RS peak worthy of MVP over Jokic. But this thread is about 2023 when his MVP case was arguably weaker than 2022 and very few complained about Embiid losing to Jokic that year even without playoffs.

Its pointless to scale a 39 game season to a full season. If Embiid played 70 games with that intensity his numbers would have plummeted.

[f4p]

Nothing wrong with it based on historical voting. Career achievement MVPs are obviously a thing and embiid needed one. Giving 3 to a non title winner would have been out of line historically and jokic's playoff on/off would suggest he needed a title to get his 3rd, again based on historical precendence. To be fair to embiid, he can't help it that every playoffs one of his knees or eyeballs tends to not be working. Though he is by a wide margin the worst playoff dropper ever among ATGs. Still, he had a great season and was reasonably healthy and jokic couldn't win 3 straight without a title if lebron and Jordan never did even with titles.

[Top10alltime]

This MVP (jojos peak szn btw and im very high on his peak) will be seen as one undeserving MVP to the media and casual fans who don't understand basketball when they watch it, either that or embiid haters/jokic stand who can't accept actual results.

Joel embiid in 23 was that good. In 24 he would've been even better in 24 (unlucky injuries happened, otherwise it would've been in contention for a top 10 peak of all-time.) What makes him so good (I'll edit this in later, since I hope to edit in some RS and PO tracking from Embiid along with a long description of his game from what I've analyzed), feel free to challenge my views on Embiid, as I try to stay open minded).

Embiids regular season play is far more deserving of one MVP than jokics has been of 3 nevermind 4. The "timing" of Embiids health and situation being less convenient doesn't strike me as much of a reason to pretend Embiid getting swept would be more representative of what they offered as RS players. Curry and Shai had stronger arguments over Jokic in 22/24 than Jokic does over 23 Embiid frankly.

Well put. Although the last one is a bit exaggerated.
But yea, Jokic case for best in the world in 24 isn't challenged by steph, but probably peak Luka and also Embiid (peak Luka was an incredible offensive peak, Jokic took a noticeable drop from the prior season and Luka with his PnR playmaking and top 5-10 passing ever, while still being an all-time scorer with his mismatch hunting and efficiency from all over the floor. Jokic is a better offball player, but he is also a better one than Jordan and we all know Jordan is better offensively , biids case is outlined above,except he was even better player this year but availability makes it worse than 23).

[One_and_Done]

Nowhere near the worst MVP season, and a season that was 'MVP level'. The MVPs for Rose, Kobe, Iverson, Cowens, etc, were far more ridiculous.

[falcolombardi]

Not nearly as questionable of a mvp as it has became in public mind post facto

The toxicity about the jokic vs embiid race followes by sixers losing/denver winning a ring made people retroactively dismiss embiid season too much

[Top10alltime]

Nowhere near the worst MVP season, and a season that was 'MVP level'. The MVPs for Rose, Kobe, Iverson, Cowens, etc, were far more ridiculous.

Day 150 of you hating on Kobe.

[Peregrine01]

Had no problem with Embiid winning but unfortunately it will be remembered for the race baiting that enveloped the conversation that year.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

I think it would be sad if Embid didn't win something so I'm okay with it. Like he's a great defender and also was like 33/4/10 with really good defense so why not?

[Top10alltime]

I think it would be sad if Embid didn't win something so I'm okay with it. Like he's a great defender and also was like 33/4/10 with really good defense so why not?

Better in the 23 season (embiid) than shai this szn too