Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Vampirate]

I think it's Scottie who wants to be a Magic type PG - our FO is giving him the chance and proving he's not suited for it.

I just don't see it. He is consistently too sloppy. True playmakers.......you see it in them when they get drafted. It's innate. Does he have playmaking skills? 100%.......which is impressive for a guy his size. Do I want him being primary playmaker & primary ball handler? Not at this stage in his career. He has a long,.long ways to go if that's what he wants, he should work towards it.....not be given the keys. This season is a write off, so you may as well let him keep doing it (until IQ gets back). He really hasn't looked much better than RJ this season.though.

I still like him as a Charles Barkley type. Freight train......leading a fast break after a rebound. Post game. Some.mid range. The odd 3.

Barkley is a different category of player, only Zion and Giannis can score 25+ points from 0-10 feet every single game.

Barnes should just work on expanding his mid range game, it's honestly I think his greatest weapon.

[Brinbe]

Part of what makes Barnes effective is his physicality, aggression and hustle. Losing out on that with this overly 'cerebral' perimeter-centric role is definitely not it.

I get their intention with this experiment and it's something Barnes clearly wants and how he sees his own game but I don't think that's ever gonna be his game like he wants it to be, injury or not.

Of course that begs the question of if he's really a main fulcrum piece instead of an additive connector when there's other good players around and that's a fair thing to consider.

[Thaddy]

The ankle injury seems like it's affecting him. He needs to score more inside and use his physical tools. The shooting needs to come through but it's hard to project him as a 40% shooter later in his career. He's having his worst season as a shooter this year. It's getting very concerning.

[Clay Davis]

Part of what makes Barnes effective is his physicality, aggression and hustle. Losing out on that with this overly 'cerebral' perimeter-centric role is definitely not it.

I get their intention with this experiment and it's something Barnes clearly wants and how he sees his own game but I don't think that's ever gonna be his game like he wants it to be, injury or not.

Of course that begs the question of if he's really a main fulcrum piece instead of an additive connector when there's other good players around and that's a fair thing to consider.

Well the thing I have to say is that it doesn't matter if it's what his ideal role is, there will be points where he'll have to do it. For instance, consider MPJ: for his entire career he has had to just score the ball. However, injuries to the roster have forced him to be that focal point at times. Since he has never had any practice in that role, his team's standing has suffered since he simply doesn't have the rizz.

Suppose we get Scottie that ideal cerebral point guard and that elite scoring option... there will be stretches in a season/post-season where he'll have to fill the shoes of the star point guard or the elite scorer. So I think giving him these reps is actually great for his development. He is, at the very least, learning what his limitations are, and this will help him when he'll have no choice but to play within those limitations.

[Tha Cynic]

Even Steph Curry perfected his 3 by perfecting his shooting inside first and then moving outwards. He does this as part of his routine every game. Why the heck is Barnes shooting so many 3s and barely going inside? We're developing him like OG.

Siakam lived in the midrange and did a pretty decent job of scoring for the team while being their top option. He was just as bad in the areas that Barnes is bad at shooting wise, while being better closer. Barnes has much better physical tools even if he doesn't have the same agility and slithery movements inside. I don't know about this shooting 3s thing.

[HangTime]

The ankle injury seems like it's affecting him. He needs to score more inside and use his physical tools. The shooting needs to come through but it's hard to project him as a 40% shooter later in his career. He's having his worst season as a shooter this year. It's getting very concerning.

First the goggles, then the foot, both mess with shooting.

But this is the perfect time to have him take them. Later when he starts hitting them, it'll open up driving opportunities.
A few shooters around him should also open up opportunities.

[Scizzup]

I think it's Scottie who wants to be a Magic type PG - our FO is giving him the chance and proving he's not suited for it.

I just don't see it. He is consistently too sloppy. True playmakers.......you see it in them when they get drafted. It's innate. Does he have playmaking skills? 100%.......which is impressive for a guy his size. Do I want him being primary playmaker & primary ball handler? Not at this stage in his career. He has a long,.long ways to go if that's what he wants, he should work towards it.....not be given the keys. This season is a write off, so you may as well let him keep doing it (until IQ gets back). He really hasn't looked much better than RJ this season.though.

I still like him as a Charles Barkley type. Freight train......leading a fast break after a rebound. Post game. Some.mid range. The odd 3.

You are right about the point guard stuff. Scottie lacks the ball handling that Magic had in the 80's and he did not have advanced dribble package. Magic was also relentless driver and a better shooter (era adjusted). Barnes passing and driving/shooting is nowhere close to great enough to be a elite point guard. He has no quick first step and while strong is only able to bully towards the rim consistently when he has clear advantage. As a point guard you are not going to be assisted much due to having the ball and if u can't score efficiently you would have to be close to a prime Russ level creator/playmaker to make up for it. Basically current Ja Morant.


The Barkley comp also makes no sense though, Barnes is neither as athletic (vertically or horizontally) nor as strong. I still think Barnes can be a top 15-20 player in the league if he maxes out on defense but his defense just has not been as advertised most of his career tbh.

[XTC]

Do people forget that our #2 scorer when we won a championship was a 19 point scorer?

And our 3rd leading scorer was a 15pt scorer.

AND everyone else was sub 10 pt scorers?

Maybe we don't ever get a 30 pt guy like a Kawhi at the top, but we do have 3 guys capable of averaging 20 a piece...then Yak and Gradey at 15+....JKW who knows....and of course the wild card being our 1st this year who may be the top guy in the future to lean on.

The roster is going to change lots in the next 5 years. Just keep adding talent...making guys better...and sort things out as you go. This year sell off the few vets for extra 2nds in 2027-30 to keep the extra picks coming in the future.

It's not about PPG bro.

The 2019 was EFFICIENT, look at the core of the team.

Kawhi - TS of 60.6%
Siakam - TS of 62.8%
Lowry - TS of 56.2%
Ibaka - TS of 58.2%
Green - TS of 63.2%
FVV - TS of 53.9%
Norm - TS of 59.6%
Gasol - TS of 56.5%
League average TS was 56.0%

Pascal was averaging 19.1 PPG PER36 with a TS of 62.8%, he was also playing lockdown defense, and he was our secondary ball handler. IMO that was the best version of Siakam in his entire career... I'm not a fan of this current Siakam who sacrificed all his intangibles to be a ball stopper on offense.

Back to Barnes... League average TS this season is 57% and Scottie is rocking a TS of 54.3%... Look no one expects Barnes to be Tatum (atleast they shouldn't), he doesn't have that mindset. It looks like he's going to settle in a guy who scores 20-22 PPG PER36, which is fine if he can facilitate and play defense, but he needs to get his efficiency above 60% if he wants to run the offense.

[HangTime]

Even Steph Curry perfected his 3 by perfecting his shooting inside first and then moving outwards. He does this as part of his routine every game. Why the heck is Barnes shooting so many 3s and barely going inside? We're developing him like OG.

Siakam lived in the midrange and did a pretty decent job of scoring for the team while being a their top option. Barnes has much better physical tools even if he doesn't have the same agility and slithery movements inside. I don't know about this shooting 3s thing.

If they feel comfortable with his inside game,
These 3 pointers are to open up driving lanes later on.

[Brinbe]

Part of what makes Barnes effective is his physicality, aggression and hustle. Losing out on that with this overly 'cerebral' perimeter-centric role is definitely not it.

I get their intention with this experiment and it's something Barnes clearly wants and how he sees his own game but I don't think that's ever gonna be his game like he wants it to be, injury or not.

Of course that begs the question of if he's really a main fulcrum piece instead of an additive connector when there's other good players around and that's a fair thing to consider.

Well the thing I have to say is that it doesn't matter if it's what his ideal role is, there will be points where he'll have to do it. For instance, consider MPJ: for his entire career he has had to just score the ball. However, injuries to the roster have forced him to be that focal point at times. Since he has never had any practice in that role, his team's standing has suffered since he simply doesn't have the rizz.

Suppose we get Scottie that ideal cerebral point guard and that elite scoring option... there will be stretches in a season/post-season where he'll have to fill the shoes of the star point guard or the elite scorer. So I think giving him these reps is actually great for his development. He is, at the very least, learning what his limitations are, and this will help him when he'll have no choice but to play within those limitations.

I get the intentionality behind letting players spread their wings and seeing where it takes them. They did the same things with Pascal and OG too and I suppose it ultimately helped them in their current roles but I think Barnes needs to get back to basics a bit right now if only to regain some confidence. I don't know if shooting his way out of a slump is helping anyone.

[Tripod]

Do people forget that our #2 scorer when we won a championship was a 19 point scorer?

And our 3rd leading scorer was a 15pt scorer.

AND everyone else was sub 10 pt scorers?

Maybe we don't ever get a 30 pt guy like a Kawhi at the top, but we do have 3 guys capable of averaging 20 a piece...then Yak and Gradey at 15+....JKW who knows....and of course the wild card being our 1st this year who may be the top guy in the future to lean on.

The roster is going to change lots in the next 5 years. Just keep adding talent...making guys better...and sort things out as you go. This year sell off the few vets for extra 2nds in 2027-30 to keep the extra picks coming in the future.

It's not about PPG bro.

The 2019 was EFFICIENT, look at the core of the team.

Kawhi - TS of 60.6%
Siakam - TS of 62.8%
Lowry - TS of 56.2%
Ibaka - TS of 58.2%
Green - TS of 63.2%
FVV - TS of 53.9%
Norm - TS of 59.6%
Gasol - TS of 56.5%
League average TS was 56.0%

Pascal was averaging 19.1 PPG PER36 with a TS of 62.8%, he was also playing lockdown defense, and he was our secondary ball handler. IMO that was the best version of Siakam in his entire career... I'm not a fan of this current Siakam who sacrificed all his intangibles to be a ball stopper on offense.

Back to Barnes... League average TS this season is 57% and Scottie is rocking a TS of 54.3%... Look no one expects Barnes to be Tatum (atleast they shouldn't), he doesn't have that mindset. It looks like he's going to settle in a guy who scores 20-22 PPG PER36, which is fine if he can facilitate and play defense, but he needs to get his efficiency above 60% if he wants to run the offense.

Yes the championship team was efficient and littered with prime vets. The NOW Raptors are years from that possibility.

The ENTIRE point was we could end up with better scoring depth and not have a #1 like Kawhi...oh...and we are going to see lots of changes between now and the final roster when we are competing.

[Tha Cynic]

Even Steph Curry perfected his 3 by perfecting his shooting inside first and then moving outwards. He does this as part of his routine every game. Why the heck is Barnes shooting so many 3s and barely going inside? We're developing him like OG.

Siakam lived in the midrange and did a pretty decent job of scoring for the team while being a their top option. Barnes has much better physical tools even if he doesn't have the same agility and slithery movements inside. I don't know about this shooting 3s thing.

If they feel comfortable with his inside game,
These 3 pointers are to open up driving lanes later on.

Very simple thing - he's terrible and so is the team at actually getting the ball in the midrange area. We can start there. He runs these useless slip screens and then ends up in the corner, or he goes inside, waves for the ball, no one knows how to get it to him or he's not fighting hard enough there and the ball gets reversed. We can start with actually having him perfect his midrange and use his bulky ass body which doesn't allow him to dribble or beat guys off the dribble. He seems to be doing a better job shooting from midrange this year, but isn't using it nearly enough.

Having him stand on the perimeter is what you have Battle do. We're trying to develop a star scorer, not a role player which is what this seems to be doing to his game
.

[PushDaRock]

I think it's Scottie who wants to be a Magic type PG - our FO is giving him the chance and proving he's not suited for it.

I just don't see it. He is consistently too sloppy. True playmakers.......you see it in them when they get drafted. It's innate. Does he have playmaking skills? 100%.......which is impressive for a guy his size. Do I want him being primary playmaker & primary ball handler? Not at this stage in his career. He has a long,.long ways to go if that's what he wants, he should work towards it.....not be given the keys. This season is a write off, so you may as well let him keep doing it (until IQ gets back). He really hasn't looked much better than RJ this season.though.

I still like him as a Charles Barkley type. Freight train......leading a fast break after a rebound. Post game. Some.mid range. The odd 3.

You are right about the point guard stuff. Scottie lacks the ball handling that Magic had in the 80's and he did not have advanced dribble package. Magic was also relentless driver and a better shooter (era adjusted). Barnes passing and driving/shooting is nowhere close to great enough to be a elite point guard. He has no quick first step and while strong is only able to bully towards the rim consistently when he has clear advantage. As a point guard you are not going to be assisted much due to having the ball and if u can't score efficiently you would have to be close to a prime Russ level creator/playmaker to make up for it. Basically current Ja Morant.


The Barkley comp also makes no sense though, Barnes is neither as athletic (vertically or horizontally) nor as strong. I still think Barnes can be a top 15-20 player in the league if he maxes out on defense but his defense just has not been as advertised most of his career tbh.

He really just seems to be a jack of all trades master of none, there's just nothing he truly does at an elite level.

He looks at his best when the ball is in and out of his hands quickly, he reads the game fairly well when making those quick decisions. When the game slows down though, he's unable to create advantages for himself or his teammates because he's just not that good of a scorer.

I would agree though, it's just not looking likely that he will become a high end offensive player and shifting his focus into becoming an All-NBA defender is probably going to be what best maximizes his value as a player.

[TakeYourHeart]

Part of what makes Barnes effective is his physicality, aggression and hustle. Losing out on that with this overly 'cerebral' perimeter-centric role is definitely not it.

I get their intention with this experiment and it's something Barnes clearly wants and how he sees his own game but I don't think that's ever gonna be his game like he wants it to be, injury or not.

Of course that begs the question of if he's really a main fulcrum piece instead of an additive connector when there's other good players around and that's a fair thing to consider.

The experiment will be over by the end of the season and the answer will be a resounding no. The question is what happens then, will Scottie accept that and play to his strengths? Or do we have a pending disgruntled player on our hands?

[Johnny Bball]

This experiment has been going on for 4 years. With that lineup he should have to shoot more. And Poeltl basically didn't get the ball or shots. There was nothing about his playmaking, distributing or scoring that was close to a first option. At some point everyone is going to have to admit the guy just refuses to be aggressive enough and its not changing, and somehting needs to change.

[Thaddy]

Barnes needs to learn how to get to the line. Get inside, warm up the shot with FTs, and then go to the corner.

Barnes is a dumb player. He just goes straight for above the break 3s. Ease into it man.

[Brinbe]

Part of what makes Barnes effective is his physicality, aggression and hustle. Losing out on that with this overly 'cerebral' perimeter-centric role is definitely not it.

I get their intention with this experiment and it's something Barnes clearly wants and how he sees his own game but I don't think that's ever gonna be his game like he wants it to be, injury or not.

Of course that begs the question of if he's really a main fulcrum piece instead of an additive connector when there's other good players around and that's a fair thing to consider.

The experiment will be over by the end of the season and the answer will be a resounding no. The question is what happens then, will Scottie accept that and play to his strengths? Or do we have a pending disgruntled player on our hands?

Can't really discount that possibility. They've pretty much handed him the keys as is and let him do whatever, so who knows what happens if/when they pull back from that.

Harper would make it an easier decision.

[raptor jesus]

Scottie has the physical tools of a Batman and the mentality of an Alfred. He's hard-wired to be a role player. I've given up on him developing that disposition to dominate offensively. At this point, I'm just hoping the Raps can land a franchise cornerstone in the draft, and Scottie can take on a more defined complimentary role that suits him better.

[pingpongrac]

I still see Scottie as a potential triple-double threat that can give you 25+ points some nights while also impacting the game on the defensive end, but it's getting harder for me to believe in him as a big-time scorer. He just doesn't possess the ball-handling, footwork or shooting required to be a top option in the NBA while not having a go-to move or the alpha mindset to be the guy makes it even harder to envision. He is still young and he could improve in some areas, but I don't think having him be the "PG" while jacking up 8 threes per game is the move right now.

[ItsDanger]

I don't see the purpose of him taking pull up 3s ever. That's something an above average 3 pt shooter should be doing, if appropriate. Defenses aren't going to respect that shot and you're just doing them a favour every time.