Bulls @ Hornets 6pm CT Dec. 30 2024

[drosestruts]

I'm in agreement with many of you here - Bulls are trying to have it both ways

They clearly start games prioritizing the young players and development - starting Phillips, 1H minutes for Buzelis.

If we win with those rotations Billy seems to stick with them.

If we're not winning - he'll go to the vets like Craig.

The constant different rotations have to be difficult for the players, and likely hampers both goals in the end.

I know there's different implications this season with our pick and all that

In general I'm a "play to win" guy. I don't like entitlement minutes, and I don't view real-life as some video game where minutes played gives young players experience to grow. If you want to play more, be better than the guy ahead of you in the rotation.

To that end - we should clearly, in my view, be starting Ball-LaVine-Craig-Williams-Vucevic with Ayo-White-Giddey-Buzelis-Smith off the bench.


I hope we never hear Patrick Williams compared to Kawhi ever again. Work on being better than Torrey Craig first.

If Giddey can't be trusted to close games by the end of the season you either sign him to a very team friendly deal, look to sign and trade him, or let him walk. I really like his rebounding and passing - but not enough to give him a big contract. Need to see more. Need to see it more consistently. And I need to see it in clutch time situations.

Coby White's awful, off balance mid range shot with 7 seconds left on the shot clock will infuriate me for days, if not weeks.

Whatever that final out of bounds play was in regulation was also god awful.

[Stratmaster]

Billy playing Craig seems to mean they are looking to win and make the playoff push.

Too bad he waited until almost half way through the season to decide that.

[FriedRise]

Yeah I know Coby almost had a triple double, but I didn't think he had a great overall game. His decision making reminded me of his first couple years here, and he took so many dumb shots out of the flow of the offense and got cooked defensively. But kudos to him for registering 9 assists when basically his entire team couldn't hit shots. That's hard to do.

Lonzo though, every time the Bulls found themselves in a hole, he came in and basically pulled them out of it. Such an impactful player. Too bad injury took so much time out of his career because I do think we would've had a squad these past few years if he was healthy.

[MrSparkle]

Billy playing Craig seems to mean they are looking to win and make the playoff push.

Too bad he waited until almost half way through the season to decide that.

He’s had some injuries too, but yeah. Very strange rotations. I had fully expected THT to jump a lot of PFs in Billy’s system; it’s what he decides to do.

Skiles and Thibs, those 2 seemed to maximize their best lineups. And Skiles was an especially stubborn mofo, to the point of frustration. But you could say he made the right calls, using Gordon to close games, playing small with Noc/Deng/Kirk/Duhon (in a big era), keeping Tyrus on a tight leash, etc.

Besides for that shorthanded 13/14 roster having too many guys shoulder 48min loads (for better or worse, Snell should’ve maybe gotten a more regular role), Thibs played the right lineups. The teams got better.

Billy has a 4y track record of hitting peak production by Dec. and maybe Apr., when it’s too late, the playoff run is desperate but a lot of other teams are conserving energy for the post season or fully tanking. There isn’t a straight line of improvement from Oct-Apr. It’s the pattern I’ve seen since the beginning of his tenure, with the exception of the P-Beverley pickup (helped us rally… to make the play-in and lose game 2).

His rotations are stubborn: forcing negatively rated lineups to big minutes, not establishing consistent roles for young players, and icing better vets to the bench (Craig, Drummond). Dalen stinks, but either play him or don’t. I don’t know what position he’s supposed to be, and I don’t think Billy knows either. I know that an energetic 6’7 lanky defender with handles and vision can serve 15 productive mpg in the NBA, somewhere. Okoro still has a job. Bogans had a career. Sefolosha did ok. But 200 minutes in his rookie season? Sheesh. Might as well not pick up his option if THT and Craig are 10x more useful, for less money!!! You could also just play Dalen, and see if he surprises us. But players don’t get player playing the DNP game. If you’re DNPing a 3rd year prospect, then it’s time to use that roster spot for somebody else. Then all of a sudden you start him at PF with a lineup he never plays with? What does he expect?

Billy is not doing himself any favors by not using these FRPs in some consistent, regular capacity. AFAIC, Dalen should be playing SF exclusively with faster defensive players, Matas should play PF as much as possible… instead they’re pegged into random roles every single time they play.

I look at Billy’s lineup data every year, and none of it makes any sense. His biggest minute 5/4/3/2 lineups net rate at a mediocre 0 or +1 range. Then he has these hugely negative lineups (esp. the tiny ones with Ayo at PF), and some incredibly high + lineups that have next to no sample size. To me, he’s just a stubborn coach who needs his top-7 options spelled out (like an AAA college program). If the quality is ambiguous, it’s a mess.

[HomoSapien]

I only was able to watch the 4th quarter, but Vuc in particular needs to make the conscious decision to give the ball to Lonzo in the final minutes and let him dictate the play. Vuc kept giving it to Coby who was out of control and not the least bit poised.

Still, a win is a win.

[Chi town]

Billy playing Craig seems to mean they are looking to win and make the playoff push.

Too bad he waited until almost half way through the season to decide that.

We’d probably be the 6th seed right now had he played Craig from day one. He has played really well.

[Dan Z]

I'm in agreement with many of you here - Bulls are trying to have it both ways

They clearly start games prioritizing the young players and development - starting Phillips, 1H minutes for Buzelis.

If we win with those rotations Billy seems to stick with them.

If we're not winning - he'll go to the vets like Craig.

The constant different rotations have to be difficult for the players, and likely hampers both goals in the end.

I know there's different implications this season with our pick and all that

In general I'm a "play to win" guy. I don't like entitlement minutes, and I don't view real-life as some video game where minutes played gives young players experience to grow. If you want to play more, be better than the guy ahead of you in the rotation.

To that end - we should clearly, in my view, be starting Ball-LaVine-Craig-Williams-Vucevic with Ayo-White-Giddey-Buzelis-Smith off the bench.


I hope we never hear Patrick Williams compared to Kawhi ever again. Work on being better than Torrey Craig first.

If Giddey can't be trusted to close games by the end of the season you either sign him to a very team friendly deal, look to sign and trade him, or let him walk. I really like his rebounding and passing - but not enough to give him a big contract. Need to see more. Need to see it more consistently. And I need to see it in clutch time situations.

Coby White's awful, off balance mid range shot with 7 seconds left on the shot clock will infuriate me for days, if not weeks.

Whatever that final out of bounds play was in regulation was also god awful.

The problem is the Bulls front office need sto pick a lane and stick to it. If they want to win this season then make moves to do so. For example, Guerschon Yabusele was a FA and signed for 2 million. I remember someone here mentioned him as a player to consider. He'd be an upgrade at the PF spot and for cheap.

Or Paul Reed when he was available. His contract is 1.47 million. Would he be a good rotation big?

Or maybe look into someone like Dennis Schroder, who was having a good season in Brooklyn and was traded for basically cap space.

I'm not saying the Bulls could do those three moves or that those moves would solve all the teams problems, but those players would help.

But, if you want to rebuild then rebuild. Trade Caruso for future stuff (picks) and then go into this season with a plan to develop young players and do what you can to keep the 2025 pick. Trade Zach/Vuc even if it means you just get expirings and minor assets (2nds?) in return.

[Jello Biafra]

Billy playing Craig seems to mean they are looking to win and make the playoff push.

Too bad he waited until almost half way through the season to decide that.

He’s had some injuries too, but yeah. Very strange rotations. I had fully expected THT to jump a lot of PFs in Billy’s system; it’s what he decides to do.

Skiles and Thibs, those 2 seemed to maximize their best lineups. And Skiles was an especially stubborn mofo, to the point of frustration. But you could say he made the right calls, using Gordon to close games, playing small with Noc/Deng/Kirk/Duhon (in a big era), keeping Tyrus on a tight leash, etc.

Besides for that shorthanded 13/14 roster having too many guys shoulder 48min loads (for better or worse, Snell should’ve maybe gotten a more regular role), Thibs played the right lineups. The teams got better.

Billy has a 4y track record of hitting peak production by Dec. and maybe Apr., when it’s too late, the playoff run is desperate but a lot of other teams are conserving energy for the post season or fully tanking. There isn’t a straight line of improvement from Oct-Apr. It’s the pattern I’ve seen since the beginning of his tenure, with the exception of the P-Beverley pickup (helped us rally… to make the play-in and lose game 2).

His rotations are stubborn: forcing negatively rated lineups to big minutes, not establishing consistent roles for young players, and icing better vets to the bench (Craig, Drummond). Dalen stinks, but either play him or don’t. I don’t know what position he’s supposed to be, and I don’t think Billy knows either. I know that an energetic 6’7 lanky defender with handles and vision can serve 15 productive mpg in the NBA, somewhere. Okoro still has a job. Bogans had a career. Sefolosha did ok. But 200 minutes in his rookie season? Sheesh. Might as well not pick up his option if THT and Craig are 10x more useful, for less money!!! You could also just play Dalen, and see if he surprises us. But players don’t get player playing the DNP game. If you’re DNPing a 3rd year prospect, then it’s time to use that roster spot for somebody else. But IMO, Billy is not doing himself any favors by not using these FRPs.

I truly miss Scott Skiles. Arguably, no Coach in Chicago history except Ditka gave a more entertaining press conference. This board was never as much fun since. Some of his gems included:

KC: "Scott. What do you think Eddy needs to do to get more rebounds". Scott: "Jump."

To Tyrus Thomas at his post draft introductory press conference after Tyrus talked about his offensive game: Scott: "Oh, so you're a me first type of guy!"

On Tyrus Thomas after a couple lackluster seasons: Scott: "I'm always in a difficult spot with a player like that," Skiles said before the 112-91 setback dropped the Bulls to 2-8. "I understand the fans see one side of it. We see the other. We know what's supposed to be done out there. We ask him to sprint the floor. To my knowledge in his career he hasn't done it one time. Not one time. "He's not going to be if he doesn't do that one thing. That's about all he has to do, change ends like a train. We have not been able to get him to do that."

Scott was so likeable they fired him on Christmas day.

Couldn't you just hear him rip into Pat tho? Or Zach for his late game turnovers. Bring Skiles back from whatever Betty Ford clinic he's in and let him loose with this bunch!

[drosestruts]

I'm in agreement with many of you here - Bulls are trying to have it both ways

They clearly start games prioritizing the young players and development - starting Phillips, 1H minutes for Buzelis.

If we win with those rotations Billy seems to stick with them.

If we're not winning - he'll go to the vets like Craig.

The constant different rotations have to be difficult for the players, and likely hampers both goals in the end.

I know there's different implications this season with our pick and all that

In general I'm a "play to win" guy. I don't like entitlement minutes, and I don't view real-life as some video game where minutes played gives young players experience to grow. If you want to play more, be better than the guy ahead of you in the rotation.

To that end - we should clearly, in my view, be starting Ball-LaVine-Craig-Williams-Vucevic with Ayo-White-Giddey-Buzelis-Smith off the bench.


I hope we never hear Patrick Williams compared to Kawhi ever again. Work on being better than Torrey Craig first.

If Giddey can't be trusted to close games by the end of the season you either sign him to a very team friendly deal, look to sign and trade him, or let him walk. I really like his rebounding and passing - but not enough to give him a big contract. Need to see more. Need to see it more consistently. And I need to see it in clutch time situations.

Coby White's awful, off balance mid range shot with 7 seconds left on the shot clock will infuriate me for days, if not weeks.

Whatever that final out of bounds play was in regulation was also god awful.

The problem is the Bulls front office need sto pick a lane and stick to it. If they want to win this season then make moves to do so. For example, Guerschon Yabusele was a FA and signed for 2 million. I remember someone here mentioned him as a player to consider. He'd be an upgrade at the PF spot and for cheap.

Or Paul Reed when he was available. His contract is 1.47 million. Would he be a good rotation big?

Or maybe look into someone like Dennis Schroder, who was having a good season in Brooklyn and was traded for basically cap space.

I'm not saying the Bulls could do those three moves or that those moves would solve all the teams problems, but those players would help.


But, if you want to rebuild then rebuild. Trade Caruso for future stuff (picks) and then go into this season with a plan to develop young players and do what you can to keep the 2025 pick. Trade Zach/Vuc even if it means you just get expirings and minor assets (2nds?) in return.

It's unclear how much if any direction is dictated to Billy by the front office.

On the front office side - every move made this summer was to me, on the same track of thinking - get younger. There's 5 new players on the roster this year - 4 of them are under 24, the only one older, Chris Duarte, isn't in the rotation and is expiring.

I prefer my coaches to always coach to win.

Strangley enough, this season, I'd say the front office has picked a lane.

It's Billy who appears to be trying to straddle two different goals.


The Paul Reed stuff is weird, had we attempted to claim him off waivers (which we couldn't because we don't have the cap space) it would have been at $7m per year, not what he's on now. Reed was waived by the Pistons, cleared waivers, then pretty much immediately re-sign with Detroit which is odd. Not sure how available he actually way or if he would play over Vuc or Smith.

Schroder was traded for an expiring and 3 seconds. I would not have made that trade, I don't think guard is one of our weaknesses.

So I disagree on those players being available and/or helpful.

Yabusele sounds like an older version of Patrick Williams if he never gets better. Williams and Craig (if we'd just play him) are both probably better.

[Indomitable]

Billy playing Craig seems to mean they are looking to win and make the playoff push.

Too bad he waited until almost half way through the season to decide that.

We’d probably be the 6th seed right now had he played Craig from day one. He has played really well.

He understands how to play. Phillips is a young version of him.

[MrSparkle]

Too bad he waited until almost half way through the season to decide that.

He’s had some injuries too, but yeah. Very strange rotations. I had fully expected THT to jump a lot of PFs in Billy’s system; it’s what he decides to do.

Skiles and Thibs, those 2 seemed to maximize their best lineups. And Skiles was an especially stubborn mofo, to the point of frustration. But you could say he made the right calls, using Gordon to close games, playing small with Noc/Deng/Kirk/Duhon (in a big era), keeping Tyrus on a tight leash, etc.

Besides for that shorthanded 13/14 roster having too many guys shoulder 48min loads (for better or worse, Snell should’ve maybe gotten a more regular role), Thibs played the right lineups. The teams got better.

Billy has a 4y track record of hitting peak production by Dec. and maybe Apr., when it’s too late, the playoff run is desperate but a lot of other teams are conserving energy for the post season or fully tanking. There isn’t a straight line of improvement from Oct-Apr. It’s the pattern I’ve seen since the beginning of his tenure, with the exception of the P-Beverley pickup (helped us rally… to make the play-in and lose game 2).

His rotations are stubborn: forcing negatively rated lineups to big minutes, not establishing consistent roles for young players, and icing better vets to the bench (Craig, Drummond). Dalen stinks, but either play him or don’t. I don’t know what position he’s supposed to be, and I don’t think Billy knows either. I know that an energetic 6’7 lanky defender with handles and vision can serve 15 productive mpg in the NBA, somewhere. Okoro still has a job. Bogans had a career. Sefolosha did ok. But 200 minutes in his rookie season? Sheesh. Might as well not pick up his option if THT and Craig are 10x more useful, for less money!!! You could also just play Dalen, and see if he surprises us. But players don’t get player playing the DNP game. If you’re DNPing a 3rd year prospect, then it’s time to use that roster spot for somebody else. But IMO, Billy is not doing himself any favors by not using these FRPs.

I truly miss Scott Skiles. Arguably, no Coach in Chicago history except Ditka gave a more entertaining press conference. This board was never as much fun since. Some of his gems included:

KC: "Scott. What do you think Eddy needs to do to get more rebounds". Scott: "Jump."

To Tyrus Thomas at his post draft introductory press conference after Tyrus talked about his offensive game: Scott: "Oh, so you're a me first type of guy!"

On Tyrus Thomas after a couple lackluster seasons: Scott: "I'm always in a difficult spot with a player like that," Skiles said before the 112-91 setback dropped the Bulls to 2-8. "I understand the fans see one side of it. We see the other. We know what's supposed to be done out there. We ask him to sprint the floor. To my knowledge in his career he hasn't done it one time. Not one time. "He's not going to be if he doesn't do that one thing. That's about all he has to do, change ends like a train. We have not been able to get him to do that."

Scott was so likeable they fired him on Christmas day.

Couldn't you just hear him rip into Pat tho? Or Zach for his late game turnovers. Bring Skiles back from whatever Betty Ford clinic he's in and let him loose with this bunch!

Absolutely. I can’t lie. I’d love to hear Coach Skiles’ thoughts on Pat, Coby, Dalen, ZACH, VUC, and the whole damn team.

[cocktailswith_2short]

We won lol thread reads like a funeral but at the end of the day a w was hung .

[Dan Z]

I'm in agreement with many of you here - Bulls are trying to have it both ways

They clearly start games prioritizing the young players and development - starting Phillips, 1H minutes for Buzelis.

If we win with those rotations Billy seems to stick with them.

If we're not winning - he'll go to the vets like Craig.

The constant different rotations have to be difficult for the players, and likely hampers both goals in the end.

I know there's different implications this season with our pick and all that

In general I'm a "play to win" guy. I don't like entitlement minutes, and I don't view real-life as some video game where minutes played gives young players experience to grow. If you want to play more, be better than the guy ahead of you in the rotation.

To that end - we should clearly, in my view, be starting Ball-LaVine-Craig-Williams-Vucevic with Ayo-White-Giddey-Buzelis-Smith off the bench.


I hope we never hear Patrick Williams compared to Kawhi ever again. Work on being better than Torrey Craig first.

If Giddey can't be trusted to close games by the end of the season you either sign him to a very team friendly deal, look to sign and trade him, or let him walk. I really like his rebounding and passing - but not enough to give him a big contract. Need to see more. Need to see it more consistently. And I need to see it in clutch time situations.

Coby White's awful, off balance mid range shot with 7 seconds left on the shot clock will infuriate me for days, if not weeks.

Whatever that final out of bounds play was in regulation was also god awful.

The problem is the Bulls front office need sto pick a lane and stick to it. If they want to win this season then make moves to do so. For example, Guerschon Yabusele was a FA and signed for 2 million. I remember someone here mentioned him as a player to consider. He'd be an upgrade at the PF spot and for cheap.

Or Paul Reed when he was available. His contract is 1.47 million. Would he be a good rotation big?

Or maybe look into someone like Dennis Schroder, who was having a good season in Brooklyn and was traded for basically cap space.

I'm not saying the Bulls could do those three moves or that those moves would solve all the teams problems, but those players would help.


But, if you want to rebuild then rebuild. Trade Caruso for future stuff (picks) and then go into this season with a plan to develop young players and do what you can to keep the 2025 pick. Trade Zach/Vuc even if it means you just get expirings and minor assets (2nds?) in return.

It's unclear how much if any direction is dictated to Billy by the front office.

On the front office side - every move made this summer was to me, on the same track of thinking - get younger. There's 5 new players on the roster this year - 4 of them are under 24, the only one older, Chris Duarte, isn't in the rotation and is expiring.

I prefer my coaches to always coach to win.

Strangley enough, this season, I'd say the front office has picked a lane.

It's Billy who appears to be trying to straddle two different goals.


The Paul Reed stuff is weird, had we attempted to claim him off waivers (which we couldn't because we don't have the cap space) it would have been at $7m per year, not what he's on now. Reed was waived by the Pistons, cleared waivers, then pretty much immediately re-sign with Detroit which is odd. Not sure how available he actually way or if he would play over Vuc or Smith.

Schroder was traded for an expiring and 3 seconds. I would not have made that trade, I don't think guard is one of our weaknesses.

So I disagree on those players being available and/or helpful.

Yabusele sounds like an older version of Patrick Williams if he never gets better. Williams and Craig (if we'd just play him) are both probably better.

Yabusele is putting up better stats than PW and only cost 2 million. My point is really go all in or don't. Maybe all in means go after Ingram or someone else who is available...?

Continuing on this path isnt working. The Bulls are currently in 9th place, which is where they finished last year.

I didnt realize that Schroder went for three 2nd. I just used it as one example.