Political Roundtable Part XXXIII

[dobrojim]

Isn't this ^ the basic premise of Friedman's The World is Flat?

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

[pancakes3]

H1B isn't outsourcing, and it's not even about saving costs. You can't just "get" a H1B for a foreign worker and pay them slave wages; there's a process to the visa, the central premise of is that you need this particular worker because there aren't any qualified Americans for that role, and you have to pay them market wages.

What H1B does for employers, is that they're able to get a worker in, locked up for the pendency of the work visa, and exploit them without worry that your working conditions would be so bad that they can easily go find another job elsewhere. And after extracting all the value out of the worker for 3-6 years, they can get their green card, go elsewhere, and then the employer can go find a replacement indentured worker. And yes, the foreign worker, is typically overqualified for the position, and is typically a better candidate over the American worker, even if the American worker is fully able to perform the job.

the benefit to the foreign worker is obvious; it allows for a path to permanent legal immigration for qualified immigrants, but it's also exploitative and flawed.

[Zonkerbl]

A programmer from Belorus paying Belorus housing prices is going to be cheaper - if he stays in Belarus.

An h1-b worker is how you get talented cream of the crop foreign grad students desperate to get established in the us. Yes, they're still cheaper. Much cheaper.

H1-b is how you make America great. Everyone wants to come here. Make it as difficult as you can to get here and then skim the cream off the top. I would calibrate the wuota to be equal to the number of foreign grad students last year. China subsidizes students to go to the US because education is better here. Steal that ish. Make sure they don't have to go back if they can find a job. That's free money for us.

[bsilver]

In general I'm in favor of the H1B program. It's a good way to get talent into the US.

However, it does get abused, especially in the IT area. An employer says they need someone with a, b, c, and d experience, knowing hardly anyone has that. There are plenty of experienced US programmers that have some of that experience, and could be trained. But employers want to get cheaper foreign labor.

[Zonkerbl]

In general I'm in favor of the H1B program. It's a good way to get talent into the US.

However, it does get abused, especially in the IT area. An employer says they need someone with a, b, c, and d experience, knowing hardly anyone has that. There are plenty of experienced US programmers that have some of that experience, and could be trained. But employers want to get cheaper foreign labor.

Of all people Vivek Ramiswami is making the point that it is indentured servitude - you have to work for the company that hired you. Lots of potential abuse for the workers.

Of course it's cheaper, of course there are Americans that want those jobs and could be trained for them. Is it worth it, nevertheless, to poach the best and brightest from other countries and get them to work here for cheap? These are "job creating" workers, arguably. Bring enough talent over and we became the world's most innovative economy, creating high paying jobs, here.

Which we already are. So what we want to do is maintain that competitive edge. Bring them over, embrace them, put them to work creating jobs for everyone else.

You could argue that we've leaned on this "brain drain" effect since the fifties and have neglected the education of our population to be able to take those jobs and you'd be right. But I tell you what, h1-b is free, and investing in your education system is not. At any rate we're in an equilibrium now where we need those h1-b workers *now* - investing in education will only pay off 20 years from now.

If you want to dial back h1-b you have to do it intelligently - build up our ability to take those jobs first, wait the necessary 20 years, and then sunset the program. If you torch the program now all you do is hand our competitive advantage in innovation over to the EU and China.

[pancakes3]

if you get rid of H1B, how would you propose that people immigrate? voters keep saying "i don't have a problem with immigrants as long as they do it the right way" and proceed to find all sorts of problems with "the right way"

we have birthright citizenship as a foundational pillar of American citizenship, but we can't have anchor babies, so that's got to go.
we have family-based sponsors as a legal, "right way" form of immigration, but that's "chain migration" and should be outlawed.
we have refugee and asylum immigration, but people "lie" about their persecution, and is too easily exploited, so we should get rid of asylum.
we have merit-based H1B visas but that's not fair to domestic workers, and we need more protectionist policies in place, so we should curtail H1B.

so who gets to come? NBA draft picks, and Justin Bieber and nobody else? like seriously, if someone wanted to move to the US right now, how would you propose that they do it? what do they need to do/prove?

it really just sounds like people have a problem with immigrants. period.

[dobrojim]

Just prohibit foreigners from immigrating and everyone would support the plan.

One of the few possessions I kept from my late brother's residence was a framed 8x11 sign
with Uncle Sam on it saying

I want you
to stop being
afraid
of other Americans
of other religions
of other classes
of speaking out
You're Americans first.
Act like it.
if you don't get it, ask an American who does.

very similar to this shirt

https://www.madebywoody.com/shop/i-want-you-to-stop-being-afraid

[bsilver]

if you get rid of H1B, how would you propose that people immigrate? voters keep saying "i don't have a problem with immigrants as long as they do it the right way" and proceed to find all sorts of problems with "the right way"

we have birthright citizenship as a foundational pillar of American citizenship, but we can't have anchor babies, so that's got to go.
we have family-based sponsors as a legal, "right way" form of immigration, but that's "chain migration" and should be outlawed.
we have refugee and asylum immigration, but people "lie" about their persecution, and is too easily exploited, so we should get rid of asylum.
we have merit-based H1B visas but that's not fair to domestic workers, and we need more protectionist policies in place, so we should curtail H1B.

so who gets to come? NBA draft picks, and Justin Bieber and nobody else? like seriously, if someone wanted to move to the US right now, how would you propose that they do it? what do they need to do/prove?

it really just sounds like people have a problem with immigrants. period.

I think you're being too critical of commenters (like me) who pointed out some issues with H1B.
I'm all for H1B and immigration.

The main problem is the politicization of the issue. The Republicans gain a lot of points by criticizing all that has gone wrong, and have no intention of having serious discussions, except for a few that were quickly overruled by Trump. Democrats could agree with Republicans on "border security" issues, but since that's all Republicans want to deal with, and Democrats don't want to cave, and I don't blame them.

[Fairview4Life]

and Democrats don't want to cave, and I don't blame them.

Democrats caved on "border issues" and have been caving for a decade. Republicans keep scuttling immigration and border security related bills because they need to gin up nonsense border crises in time for every election.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

This book should be required reading.



From Wikipedia:

Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis is a book written by Jimmy Carter. On January 15, 2006 it was listed at #1 on The New York Times Non-Fiction Best Seller list.[citation needed]

Our Endangered Values[https://upload]AuthorJimmy CarterLanguageEnglish

Publication date

2005Publication placeUnited States

Carter won the Grammy Award for Best Spoken Word Album for the spoken word production of this book, tying with Ruby Dee and Ossie Davis.[1]

My idea for MAKING AMERICA BETTER NOW AND MOVING FORWARD would be to have people listen or read each chapter. Have conservatives and liberals PARLIAMENTARY DEBATE each issue. How do people process differing perspectives?

Consensus view can be agreed upon. Extremes can be identified as outliers.

Are people more interested in division and selfish beliefs? Or, can they do as Carter after his presidency?

Respect and decency need to be restored in politics.
Racial division needs to be lessened.

Morality should be number one. Not hostility.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I met Jimmy Carter in 2006 at a book signing in Columbus, GA.

I said to him, "You're a great man".

[AFM]

I met Jimmy Carter in 2006 at a book signing in Columbus, GA.

I said to him, "You're a great man".

Brutha if I met you I'd tell you the same thing

[dobrojim]

Carter was the most scientifically educated POTUS ever. Now we have the least scientifically
educated and therefore the most scientifically ignorant POTUS ever. Being good at politics has usurped
understanding evident truths in importance.

Many 'average' Americans think they know more about science than scientists know about science.
And/or that nothing is true.

There probably are a myriad of reasons for this but Vietnam and Watergate would be 2 reasons
I would point to as strongly contributing to this in my lifetime. Resistance to truth is demonstrated
when Nixon still had 25% approval at the time of his resignation. Or when the Pentagon and the pols
couldn't change course/policy by 1968. Admitting you were wrong is a difficult thing to do.

[Bonscott]

And Carter still has more functioning brain cells than Biden does

[Zonkerbl]

I don't understand this pathetic thirst for attention Trump supporters have. "Look at me! I'm flinging poop! Look at me!"

[Bonscott]

I don't understand this pathetic thirst for attention Trump supporters have. "Look at me! I'm flinging poop! Look at me!"

Actually I'm not A Trump supporter,I'm a US supporter
I didn't vote for him in the primaries (democrats don't even know what primaries are) but since Trump won it was an easy choice for president,77,000,000 + other voters said the same thing

[AFM]

I don't understand this pathetic thirst for attention Trump supporters have. "Look at me! I'm flinging poop! Look at me!"

Sounds kind of fun when you put it that way

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I met Jimmy Carter in 2006 at a book signing in Columbus, GA.

I said to him, "You're a great man".

Brutha if I met you I'd tell you the same thing

Thanks! I appreciate your kind words.

Blessings to you, AFM.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

President Jimmy Carter offers a passionate defense of separation of church and state, warning that fundamentalists are deliberately blurring the lines between politics and religion.

Carter describes his reactions to recent disturbing societal trends that involve both religious and political worlds as they increasingly intertwine and include some of the most crucial and controversial issues of the day. Many of these matters are under fierce debate. They include preemptive war, women's rights, terrorism, civil liberties, homosexuality, abortion, the death penalty, science and religion, environmental degradation, nuclear arsenals, America's global image, fundamentalism, and the melding of religion and politics.

Sustained by his lifelong faith, Jimmy Carter assesses these issues in a balanced and courageous way.

https://www.amazon.com/Our-Endangered-Values-Americas-Crisis/dp/0743285018?tag=hydsma-20&source=dsa&hvcampaign=booksm&gclid=Cj0KCQiAj9m7BhD1ARIsANsIIvAlhGmuT_pqiBpEI9pMdTj3vTaYOcvK7YmmtCB-ZnUMhXo69twD0loaAsm7EALw_wcB