Another dive, another injury (Jaden Ivey suffers broken fibula)

[Johnny Bball]

Reckless AF.

[TheChaser]

It's a reckless play by Anthony. Not sure how you police that though.

It is a competitive sport. Unfortunately, injuries are going to happen. I don’t think that playing hard should be deemed as reckless…

[TheChaser]

I believe rule changes in this area are worthy of discussion, but have no idea how it could be introduced or interpreted. In this play, Anthony wasn't that much late, but putting your upper body into the opponents legs is just super risky.

Anyway, players are more athletic, game is getting faster and faster, it's not that surprising these contacts may cause more injuries (even if that's still sporadic).

I think the simple way is to say diving and making contact with another player’s legs is a flagrant, much like stepping under a jump shot is.

Yeah I don't understand how this is difficult. It's obvious when diving for loose balls is dangerous, in the same way that stepping under or pushing an airborne player in the back is.

Players are coached from childhood to dive for loose balls. I think some of these comments are coming from people who did not play sports, and I don’t mean that in any negative connotation. You hear it all the time in interviews how guys are being commended for making hustle plays.

[JT3000]

I watched it again, this wasn't a dive for the ball, it was a tackle.

Ivey basically had position and possession of the ball and this idiot tackles him.

Congrats, you're legally blind. If you can't even tell it was a loose ball, I don't know how you expect anyone to take the rest of your nonsensical observations seriously. Regardless, there was no "tackle" by any stretch of the imagination.

The takes in here border from funny to insane. We should legislate anything out that can result in more injuries right? Guarding a jump shooter could hurt someone. Setting an illegal screen should be a flagrant 4. Taking a charge causes all kinds of injuries, no more taking charges. In fact, any slapping action or hooking of another player's body is just right out.

It appeared that both Paolo and Franz got their torn obliques from getting pushed from behind while going for rebounds, so that should be outlawed too.

I feel bad for Ivey. Hope he gets well soon. Should have been the beginning and end of this thread.

this isn't really about legislating anything. it's about enforcing flagrants consistently. a dive into somebody is a reckless play. watch the video posted in this thread by statlanta. rondo didn't just time it to go into a dive as his opponent reaches for the ball and take out his legs. rondo actually played for the ball while recognizing that there's an opposing player there and that he has to take this into account.

if the league suspended retroactively for this kind of play when a player is injured, we certainly would see a lot less of them. and the rules are there already. that kind of contact is unnecessary and excessive

Except Cole did not "dive into somebody," as you incorrectly characterize it. He was not looking to take out anyone's legs, he was diving for the ball, which he in fact got to before Ivey. The contact occurs after he's already made contact with the ball, with a player who was NOT between him and the ball when he started the dive, making any comparison with that Rondo play complete nonsense. As far as he could tell, there was no opposing player to take into account. Two completely different situations.

Suspension worthy bush league garbage and idgaf what anyone says, that is not a basketball play, you dive into someone's ankles at full speed and you WILL injure them

All emotion, zero logic.

[UcanUwill]

They call flagrants for recklessness with arms hitting heads, why would it be so hard to do the same with bodies recklessly hitting legs?

How many careers are gonna be ended protecting "hustle" players?

If you can't knock some out of the air pursuing the ball, why should you be able to tackle them to get to the ball?

I really disagree with your comments. ''Hustle'' player, what does that even mean, Anthony is definitely not hustle player, you think all he does is fight for 50/50 balls? No, but he tried to get the ball as every player should, thats what all players should do, it doesn't make you a hustle player, it just makes you a player, like wtf. This was unfortunate, but most of the time player dives, it is just a dive for the ball, I do not think it is very comparable with plays where guy hits other player with his arms. In those instances, it is very clear who is in the wrong, and if guy swinging his elbows and arms, bad contact would happen in almost every situation. In dive situations, this is just rare instances where both players got in bad spot at the wrong time, if you ban diving on the idea someone could get hurt, what are we even doing at that point, its a contact sport, contact injuries are unavoidable.

[kazyv]

Except Cole did not "dive into somebody," as you incorrectly characterize it. He was not looking to take out anyone's legs, he was diving for the ball, which he in fact got to before Ivey. The contact occurs after he's already made contact with the ball, with a player who was NOT between him and the ball when his started the dive, making any comparison with that Rondo play complete nonsense. As far as he could tell, there was no opposing player to take into account. Two completely different situations.

Suspension worthy bush league garbage and idgaf what anyone says, that is not a basketball play, you dive into someone's ankles at full speed and you WILL injure them

All emotion, zero logic.

irrelevant. if you block the ball while breaking somebodies nose because you follow through, you're getting ejected. why would he "dive" for the ball if nobody was there? why not just pick it up and control it? oh wait, that's right. it's because Ivey WAS in fact there. and the only way to get it was to take Ivey out with a reckless and foul play

[cl2117]

I'm a sucker for a hustle play and hustle players, don't ever want to see that pushed out of the game. In an era where the majority of people seem to think the NBA has lost some of it's appeal because of the proliferation of the three point shot, it'd be foolish to also move towards getting rid of guys diving on the floor for loose balls.

I wouldn't mind giving some latitude for the refs to call a foul or a flagrant on a guy egregiously diving at someone's knees or making a truly reckless play, but this ain't that.

It sounds harsh, but don't go for the 50/50 ball if you're worried about getting crashed into. Guys should also be conscious of where they're diving, but ultimately I want my team hitting the deck for loose balls and I want that as part of the NBA product.

Injuries are unfortunate and I think there's validity to the idea that we need to try and adjust where possible (e.g the landing space foul), but calling this "dirty" or "reckless" is a stretch in my eyes and trying to regulate it out of the game would be a mistake.

[JT3000]

Except Cole did not "dive into somebody," as you incorrectly characterize it. He was not looking to take out anyone's legs, he was diving for the ball, which he in fact got to before Ivey. The contact occurs after he's already made contact with the ball, with a player who was NOT between him and the ball when his started the dive, making any comparison with that Rondo play complete nonsense. As far as he could tell, there was no opposing player to take into account. Two completely different situations.



All emotion, zero logic.

irrelevant. if you block the ball while breaking somebodies nose because you follow through, you're getting ejected. why would he "dive" for the ball if nobody was there? why not just pick it up and control it? oh wait, that's right. it's because Ivey WAS in fact there. and the only way to get it was to take Ivey out with a reckless and foul play

It's not irrelevant at all, as it shows he was making a play on the ball and any contact with Ivey was incidental. Why would he dive? Because he figured that was the fastest way to get to the ball before anyone else, obviously. Just because he didn't see Ivey, that doesn't mean it wasn't still a LOOSE BALL that was fair game for anyone to pick up.

You're not getting ejected for making incidental contact on a legitimate, legal basketball play (such as blocking a ball.) That's not how flagrants work. Just ask Cole, who was in fact not ejected from the game for making a genuine basketball play. All this speculative, armchair officiating amounts to nothing at the end of the day.

[BruttoNostra]

It's a reckless play by Anthony. Not sure how you police that though.

Even if so (really, have no idea how to judge it, saw some tweets about him slipping, but can't see it in the video), at least he seams like he is genuinely sorry for the hurt opponent, unlike how the buffoon and draymond behave after they hurt someone - so in this case I'm willing to give Cole the benefit of doubt.

[axeman23]

There are explicit rules against diving at a football players legs this in rugby union, like get sent off (yellow/red card) rules because that **** is so dangerous and shooting 200 lbs of force into a players knees or legs is liable to injuring people.

Its a different sport with different aims. In the rugby example you gave, the guy rushing through is trying to prevent a field goal, which is quite often at the end of a game and ends up being the decisive play. In basketball, it's nothing like that: You just see the ball on the ground, unclaimed, and you GO for it: 1st minute, or 48th minute. THIS was just pure bad luck for Ivey, and I don't believe Anthony did anything wrong.

[axeman23]

I believe rule changes in this area are worthy of discussion, but have no idea how it could be introduced or interpreted. In this play, Anthony wasn't that much late, but putting your upper body into the opponents legs is just super risky.

Anyway, players are more athletic, game is getting faster and faster, it's not that surprising these contacts may cause more injuries (even if that's still sporadic).

I think the simple way is to say diving and making contact with another player’s legs is a flagrant, much like stepping under a jump shot is.

Just make diving for the ball illegal then.

Every time the ball's in space, we can have a halt in the game, and the possession arrow determines who gets the ball...

[JayMKE]

There are too many flagrant already, as many injuries as ever. Landing space flagrant have just resulted in guys trying to land on other players. Sucks for Ivey to get hurt but not changing the rules of the game because some guy accidentally rolled his ankle. You can’t legislate injuries at out of basketball.

[threethehardway]

It's not irrelevant at all, as it shows he was making a play on the ball and any contact with Ivey was incidental. Why would he dive? Because he figured that was the fastest way to get to the ball before anyone else, obviously. Just because he didn't see Ivey, that doesn't mean it wasn't still a LOOSE BALL that was fair game for anyone to pick up.

You're not getting ejected for making incidental contact on a legitimate, legal basketball play (such as blocking a ball.) That's not how flagrants work. Just ask Cole, who was in fact not ejected from the game for making a genuine basketball play. All this speculative, armchair officiating amounts to nothing at the end of the day.

I don't care if the contact was incidental or not.

Only way Cole Anthony was going to get to the ball was going through Ivey because Ivey was already there and had a hand on the ball.

It was a tackle, no different than a tackle in futbol that would be called for a red flag.

Basketball isn't football no matter how many RealGm posters miss the good ole days of the handcheck and 87-83 games.

Just like now you can't close out and put your foot in a shooter's landing space, you shouldn't be able to dive for the ball and make contact with a player's legs and take them out. It's a dumb play. It's a reckless play. It's an unnecessary career ending play. It deserves a flagrant.

[Billl]

If closing out too tight is a flagrant, this should be too. I get that he was just trying to make a play, but it was a reckless play likely to cause injury. This is probably season ending for ivey.

Anyway, there is a big difference between diving for a ball rolling out of bounds and diving through another players legs on a rebound.

[Nate505]

The takes in here border from funny to insane.

Yeah, apparently there are people who are actually seriously talking about banning guys from diving for a loose ball. It's nuts.

[elchengue20]

The takes in here border from funny to insane.

Yeah, apparently there are people who are actually seriously talking about banning guys from diving for a loose ball. It's nuts.

It's funny probably many of them are the same people consistenly crying about how soft the game has become lol

[byeganyo]

I watched it again, this wasn't a dive for the ball, it was a tackle.

Ivey basically had position and possession of the ball and this idiot tackles him.

I dont like Cole,in this case he could have acted with more constraint, but here - this is basically the moment he starts diving, Ivey did not have the possesion of the ball at that moment and no one can predict what will happen a second later.

[SkyBill40]

That's very likely to be an MCL at the least, possibly an ACL, or potentially worse... it could be both. Accidents happen all the time and he was making a play at the ball. There was no malicious intent here, and it's clear Anthony feels absolutely horrible about it.

And I agree that there's some abjectly asinine takes in this thread on what was purely incidental contact.

[kazyv]

The takes in here border from funny to insane.

Yeah, apparently there are people who are actually seriously talking about banning guys from diving for a loose ball. It's nuts.

we've seen this kind of play time and time again. and the one constant is that the hurt player always has the back to the guy who's diving and can't protect himself from injury. you don't see guys diving at somebodies legs from the front because then you just might catch a knee to the face. so the change/suggestion i have is to make it a flagrant if you make contact with a player while diving from behind/side and out of sight of the opposing player. and unlike the three pointer change, it's virtually impossible to abuse either, since the other player has to be facing the lose ball, he can't very well turn around last second just to make sure you end up hitting him from behind

[Homer38]

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