Pain is coming. Brace yourselves.

[GLF]

Sitting in 12th.....6 games under .500 and hearing that we traded away a 1st round pick, THAT was painful for me. Watching so many clear non-NBA players get minutes last year, THAT was painful. This season just sucks, but it's not painful. Bring on the draft.

This is what a lot of people don't get about the criticisms levied at the front office over the last few years. This year isn't painful, because there is an actual plan in place and a trajectory to improvement. We have young pieces, we are losing, we will have the opportunity to add more high talent level young pieces, that will (hopefully) develop into really good players and a successful team.

The FVV/Siakam + JP "era" never had a plan. The team was already obviously not going to turn into a real threat, despite the east being weak. And seeing a team already lotto bound, trade that pick away for a centre that exacerbated the teams already horrific spacing issues, and you get what we got. There wasn't a plan there, and if there was, it was not only very obfuscated, but it was heavily flawed. There was no reality where Jak was the lynch pin to that team turning the corner, by no fault of his own.

It was very much a shortsighted attempt to turn a below average team, into a mid team, all while mortgaging the future. Last year was just the fallout of that shortsighted move as well, watching non NBA players get minutes and lose is one thing, but doing it full well knowing, that you probably won't even have a pick come out of it, was what pushed it into painful.

We are currently in control of our own destiny, with a (likely) very high lotto pick, and having one of the greatest drafting FOs of recent history at the helm. As much as I may have dumped on the FO, this is precisely the situation that I have the utmost faith in them for. And quite frankly, even if they completely botch the pick, I would be pissed, but I wouldn't be at them, as their track record with that precedes them, and they will continue to get the benefit of the doubt.

But I reserve the right to throw all that faith in the trash if I see them start fielding fully healthy rosters in the easier half of our schedule and ruin the potential draft chances for some empty wins.

Our schedule doesn’t really ease up until March. I’m pretty confident that we will have lost so many games by then that winning a few more games than people would like isn’t gonna affect too much. Like I think getting a top 5 pick will be solidified by then. And to be honest this team is so cursed I doubt we stay healthy during that stretch anyway. I don’t think the front office will have to purposely sit guys. And as much as we need this high pick, we also do need to see what that starting lineup can do. Having literally no real sample size of that starting lineup isn’t good either.

[Merit]

Pain was watching our FO waste the last 3-4 years doubling & tripling down on middling talent and pretending it was a "championship core" of FVV, Pascal & OG when in reality they were complimentary players and our rebuild should've already started YEARS ago...kind of like when ORL was trying to force things with players like Gordon, Vuc etc.

This on the other hand is GREAT to watch them finally commit to a proper rebuild and actually give the franchise a REAL chance in the future by recognizing they MUST bring in BETTER talent and that the most obvious way to do so is the draft which vast majority of this board aka tWo, has understood for years but the FO foolishly wasted time appealing to the vocal minority of delusional Team "Compete" fans. They've come to see the error of their way of thinking (the FO lol many TC fans have every excuse in the book) and I'm happy for it.

So unnecessarily inflammatory and all the talking points have been covered already re: paragraph 1 with Fred leaving.

Why do TWO in a draft without a generational talent? The team picked the right year to tank. Plus, our rookies have surprised. We have 3 first round talents via 1 first and 2 2nds. For all the big talk the FO is doing exactly what you want right now and you’re still trying to go back to the past. Just enjoy that you have a tanking team right now since it’s what you so desperately wanted.

You may want to simplify it to Fred leaving but that's just incorrect - the problem was committing to a supposed "CORE" of Fred AND Pascal, OG. That GROUP of players were not talented enough to be built around (period), this wasn't all about Fred lol that's just a lame cop out.

And what do you mean why do tWo in a draft without generational talent?! Again we should've YEARS ago and the most upset tWo was, in the draft that involved Wemby (who is the most generational prospect since LeBron & possibly ever) and instead we tripled down by going to get Poeltl despite being in the bottom 6 in the standings at the time. I also said that I'm happy that they are FINALLY doing what majority of us wanted but who the heck are you to dictate what I say especially when it provides context to what's being discussed?! lol

The thread said THIS is painful, which I disagree and I'm giving my REASON why it's not, which is the past several years prior to this is WHAT was painful but I get you were one of those TC posters so it strikes a nerve but you're gonna have to learn to just deal with the sting lol

Caps lock does nothing for me when you’re rehashing the same points. I’ve already said what I’ve said and there’s no reason to say it again. We have different perspectives and I can agree to disagree but continuously bringing up PAST decisions for UNNECESSARY context when the CURRENT decisions align with what you want is a waste of time and energy.

[Scase]

Sitting in 12th.....6 games under .500 and hearing that we traded away a 1st round pick, THAT was painful for me. Watching so many clear non-NBA players get minutes last year, THAT was painful. This season just sucks, but it's not painful. Bring on the draft.

This is what a lot of people don't get about the criticisms levied at the front office over the last few years. This year isn't painful, because there is an actual plan in place and a trajectory to improvement. We have young pieces, we are losing, we will have the opportunity to add more high talent level young pieces, that will (hopefully) develop into really good players and a successful team.

The FVV/Siakam + JP "era" never had a plan. The team was already obviously not going to turn into a real threat, despite the east being weak. And seeing a team already lotto bound, trade that pick away for a centre that exacerbated the teams already horrific spacing issues, and you get what we got. There wasn't a plan there, and if there was, it was not only very obfuscated, but it was heavily flawed. There was no reality where Jak was the lynch pin to that team turning the corner, by no fault of his own.

It was very much a shortsighted attempt to turn a below average team, into a mid team, all while mortgaging the future. Last year was just the fallout of that shortsighted move as well, watching non NBA players get minutes and lose is one thing, but doing it full well knowing, that you probably won't even have a pick come out of it, was what pushed it into painful.

We are currently in control of our own destiny, with a (likely) very high lotto pick, and having one of the greatest drafting FOs of recent history at the helm. As much as I may have dumped on the FO, this is precisely the situation that I have the utmost faith in them for. And quite frankly, even if they completely botch the pick, I would be pissed, but I wouldn't be at them, as their track record with that precedes them, and they will continue to get the benefit of the doubt.

But I reserve the right to throw all that faith in the trash if I see them start fielding fully healthy rosters in the easier half of our schedule and ruin the potential draft chances for some empty wins.

Our schedule doesn’t really ease up until March. I’m pretty confident that we will have lost so many games by then that winning a few more games than people would like isn’t gonna affect too much. Like I think getting a top 5 pick will be solidified by then. And to be honest this team is so cursed I doubt we stay healthy during that stretch anyway. I don’t think the front office will have to purposely sit guys. And as much as we need this high pick, we also do need to see what that starting lineup can do. Having literally no real sample size of that starting lineup isn’t good either.

There is currently only 7 wins separating us from 10th worst, and only 3 and 4 games to the 2 teams directly above use. Every single win is detrimental to the tank, especially games like tonight which effectively are worth twice as much against a team also competing to tank.

Maybe you are right, but if we are so bad that bottom 5 is solidified, then why not lean into it and give you the best chance for a good pick. Yesterday we were 3rd worst, tonight we are 5th worst, a single day has shifted it that much, with 3rd and 4th both being tied at 7 wins. We lose tonight, we continue to cement 3rd worst, we cannot afford meaningless wins, be it now, or later in the season.

Seeing what that lineup can do, is not worth jeopardizing your chances at a good pick, especially considering the players themselves are already old enough that you know what most of them are capable of, neither IQ nor RJ are going to be taking significant leaps.

[Merit]

Pain was watching our FO waste the last 3-4 years doubling & tripling down on middling talent and pretending it was a "championship core" of FVV, Pascal & OG when in reality they were complimentary players and our rebuild should've already started YEARS ago...kind of like when ORL was trying to force things with players like Gordon, Vuc etc.

This on the other hand is GREAT to watch them finally commit to a proper rebuild and actually give the franchise a REAL chance in the future by recognizing they MUST bring in BETTER talent and that the most obvious way to do so is the draft which vast majority of this board aka tWo, has understood for years but the FO foolishly wasted time appealing to the vocal minority of delusional Team "Compete" fans. They've come to see the error of their way of thinking (the FO lol many TC fans have every excuse in the book) and I'm happy for it.

So unnecessarily inflammatory and all the talking points have been covered already re: paragraph 1 with Fred leaving.

Why do TWO in a draft without a generational talent? The team picked the right year to tank. Plus, our rookies have surprised. We have 3 first round talents via 1 first and 2 2nds. For all the big talk the FO is doing exactly what you want right now and you’re still trying to go back to the past. Just enjoy that you have a tanking team right now since it’s what you so desperately wanted.

People who wanted to compete in the Wemby draft year were pushing for a Center......well you got it in Yak.

It costed you a much better shot in Wemby, likely Edey (who we would likely drafted had we had the chance) and now have a declining asset in Yak.

It is that trade, that singular trade and lots before it on why competing on a flawed core is bad.

But really, if you don't land a Superstar in the draft, you need asset ammunition (lots) to swing a trade for a Star that moves the needle to contention and have enough left over to actually contend.

There's no guarantees, but one needs to set them selves up as best they can anyways.

(also sometimes stars or generational talents aren't the players that you expect in the draft)

Have you considered that hindsight is 20/20? Have you considered that this line of thinking could go back indefinitely?

Do I agree with your talking points? Many, yes. A team should put themselves in the best position to win. Knowing what we know now (that Fred leaves and our timeline changes) maybe we do tank sooner.

Do we tank our assets to tank sooner? Why’d we do that?

Did the front office have success building from the middle before? Also yes.

You suggested Edey, but who knows who we would’ve drafted with our (spurs) pick this year.

There are literally infinite variables that could’ve played out differently - not the least of which was us keeping our pick.

The two things I have faith in the front office to do are draft and develop. They are currently tanking. Everything else brought us to this point. They are doing what the TWO wants. They are currently rebuilding and will return to winning sooner rather than later.

Like you said, there’re no guarantees but in the moment, TWO can relax and enjoy what they’ve wanted to see for a while. “It’s happening!”

[TheGeneral99]

Sitting in 12th.....6 games under .500 and hearing that we traded away a 1st round pick, THAT was painful for me. Watching so many clear non-NBA players get minutes last year, THAT was painful. This season just sucks, but it's not painful. Bring on the draft.

This is what a lot of people don't get about the criticisms levied at the front office over the last few years. This year isn't painful, because there is an actual plan in place and a trajectory to improvement. We have young pieces, we are losing, we will have the opportunity to add more high talent level young pieces, that will (hopefully) develop into really good players and a successful team.

The FVV/Siakam + JP "era" never had a plan. The team was already obviously not going to turn into a real threat, despite the east being weak. And seeing a team already lotto bound, trade that pick away for a centre that exacerbated the teams already horrific spacing issues, and you get what we got. There wasn't a plan there, and if there was, it was not only very obfuscated, but it was heavily flawed. There was no reality where Jak was the lynch pin to that team turning the corner, by no fault of his own.

It was very much a shortsighted attempt to turn a below average team, into a mid team, all while mortgaging the future. Last year was just the fallout of that shortsighted move as well, watching non NBA players get minutes and lose is one thing, but doing it full well knowing, that you probably won't even have a pick come out of it, was what pushed it into painful.

We are currently in control of our own destiny, with a (likely) very high lotto pick, and having one of the greatest drafting FOs of recent history at the helm. As much as I may have dumped on the FO, this is precisely the situation that I have the utmost faith in them for. And quite frankly, even if they completely botch the pick, I would be pissed, but I wouldn't be at them, as their track record with that precedes them, and they will continue to get the benefit of the doubt.

But I reserve the right to throw all that faith in the trash if I see them start fielding fully healthy rosters in the easier half of our schedule and ruin the potential draft chances for some empty wins.

I think the issue was that in 2020 after Kawhi left we had an incredibly dominant season and Siakam had emerged into a legitimate all-star caliber player. At 6'9 with a long reach, being a plus defender, and being extremely quick, I think the FO thought had the tools to make the leap.

I think the FO assumed that Siakam would emerge as a perennial top 10-15 player, Fred would continue to improve into a top 10 point guard, OG would continue to improve, and with the addition of Barnes as the ROY and future all-star, they had a very solid core in place. In addition, Gary looked quite promising early on after the trade and at only 23 years old we thought he would become a really nice shooting guard.

Obviously in hindsight we can see that the fit and the chemistry was off, Siakam never really emerged as a legitimate top 15 player, Fred had his flaws, and Gary was wildly inconsistent, but I can see why the front office attempted to make that core work.

The biggest issue for me between 2022 and 2024 was not necessarily our starting line-up and core but it was FO's misses on draft picks and bench pieces. We had arguably the worst bench in the league since 2021 and almost every off-season signing and mid-season trade was a failure. Nurse was playing the starters crazy heavy minutes and we had literally zero best production. One of our biggest strengths in the We the North era was our bench. In fact the Rudy Gay trade in 2014 turned our season around because we finally had some awesome depth. In 2015 and 2016 Masai continued adding great bench pieces through the draft like Powell, Delon, Fred, Siakam, Poeltl etc.

[Scase]

Sitting in 12th.....6 games under .500 and hearing that we traded away a 1st round pick, THAT was painful for me. Watching so many clear non-NBA players get minutes last year, THAT was painful. This season just sucks, but it's not painful. Bring on the draft.

This is what a lot of people don't get about the criticisms levied at the front office over the last few years. This year isn't painful, because there is an actual plan in place and a trajectory to improvement. We have young pieces, we are losing, we will have the opportunity to add more high talent level young pieces, that will (hopefully) develop into really good players and a successful team.

The FVV/Siakam + JP "era" never had a plan. The team was already obviously not going to turn into a real threat, despite the east being weak. And seeing a team already lotto bound, trade that pick away for a centre that exacerbated the teams already horrific spacing issues, and you get what we got. There wasn't a plan there, and if there was, it was not only very obfuscated, but it was heavily flawed. There was no reality where Jak was the lynch pin to that team turning the corner, by no fault of his own.

It was very much a shortsighted attempt to turn a below average team, into a mid team, all while mortgaging the future. Last year was just the fallout of that shortsighted move as well, watching non NBA players get minutes and lose is one thing, but doing it full well knowing, that you probably won't even have a pick come out of it, was what pushed it into painful.

We are currently in control of our own destiny, with a (likely) very high lotto pick, and having one of the greatest drafting FOs of recent history at the helm. As much as I may have dumped on the FO, this is precisely the situation that I have the utmost faith in them for. And quite frankly, even if they completely botch the pick, I would be pissed, but I wouldn't be at them, as their track record with that precedes them, and they will continue to get the benefit of the doubt.

But I reserve the right to throw all that faith in the trash if I see them start fielding fully healthy rosters in the easier half of our schedule and ruin the potential draft chances for some empty wins.

I think the issue was that in 2020 after Kawhi left we had an incredibly dominant season and Siakam had emerged into a legitimate all-star caliber player. At 6'9 with a long reach, being a plus defender, and being extremely quick, I think the FO thought had the tools to make the leap.

I think the FO assumed that Siakam would emerge as a perennial top 10-15 player, Fred would continue to improve into a top 10 point guard, OG would continue to improve, and with the addition of Barnes as the ROY and future all-star, they had a very solid core in place. In addition, Gary looked quite promising early on after the trade and at only 23 years old we thought he would become a really nice shooting guard.

Obviously in hindsight we can see that the fit and the chemistry was off, Siakam never really emerged as a legitimate top 15 player, Fred had his flaws, and Gary was wildly inconsistent, but I can see why the front office attempted to make that core work.

The biggest issue for me between 2022 and 2024 was not necessarily our starting line-up and core but it was FO's misses on draft picks and bench pieces. We had arguably the worst bench in the league since 2021 and almost every off-season signing and mid-season trade was a failure. Nurse was playing the starters crazy heavy minutes and we had literally zero best production. One of our biggest strengths in the We the North era was our bench. In fact the Rudy Gay trade in 2014 turned our season around because we finally had some awesome depth. In 2015 and 2016 Masai continued adding great bench pieces through the draft like Powell, Delon, Fred, Siakam, Poeltl etc.

That's why I never really dunk on them for the post chip year, even if they didn't play that well, they earned the right to showcase what they could do. It was afterwards where I take issue, slowly bleeding talent and missing on every attempt to replace, or hell flat out not even replacing them was a huge problem. Then you have the continued doubling down with the Jak trade, the drama over the summer about extensions, and so on. That's like 2 years wasted and a pick, just blinded by emotions, amateur level team building.

Siakam never looked like he could make the leap to a true #1, or hell even a 1a/b option. He is always a 2nd fiddle for a real successful team, and not identifying that sooner wasted a lot of time. That didn't require hindsight, but rather just looking at him pragmatically.

So now instead of having a young team with prospects on rookie contracts going through growing pains, we have our entire cor essentially on their 2nd much more expensive contracts, it just makes the timeline so much shorter, and the room for error even smaller. Everything will be sped up to make up for lost time, this team SHOULD be tanking next year as well, but that ain't happening, not intentionally at least.

[TorontoBarneys]

Watch on YouTube

[refshateRaps]

Good job Masai lol