Bulls @ Wizards 6pm CT Jan. 1 2025

[Dominator83]

This team is so poorly coached. Will losing to one of the worst teams in the east get him canned? Of course not because we have so many embarrassing losses and there is no consequences to underachieving. Donovan gets treated like he won 2 titles here.

This team is overachieving probably more than almost anyone in the NBA this year and you want the coach fired. You should be getting way more pissed at the wins because those are costing this franchise any sense of a future

You still dreaming of a tank that is not going to happen and decisions were made years ago to stop that from happening. Furthermore this is not the 90s and early 2000s anymore piling up losses doesn't guarantee you top picks. Atlanta got the 1st pick and they were in the play in last year. Although these players can operate like idiots some nights there is still to much talent on the team to expect a ton of losses so rooting for losing at this point is just a waste of time. Where they land is where they land.

Who wants a team where the players lay down and lose? Players suppose to say, hey let's lose for the sake of the future of a franchise that could trade me tomorrow? To draft someone that could potentially be that players replacement? Some of y'all are just not realistic anymore. A proper tank should have been decided before the season even started. Otherwise the fringe play in team is what this was always going to be.

But the mediocrity can't be unpunished and anyone with a set of eyes can see how bad this system looks and bad system and bad effort is just not on the players. You all want to keep hoping for draft miracles in a situation that is not going to bring it. Regardless better coaching would get more out of these players. And losing big to one of the worst teams in the east should be a fire able offense.

Not to mention, A #1 pick in a draft with a great #1 pick worthy prospect isn't enough to cover up the stink of a **** organization. It's more likely to just ruin the prospect and kill their confidence. See the Blackhawks and the Bears for very recent exhibits of this.

Even Cooper Flagg won't save this garbage organization from being garbage. We need ownership changes across the city.

[dougthonus]

Not to mention, A #1 pick in a draft with a great #1 pick worthy prospect isn't enough to cover up the stink of a **** organization. It's more likely to just ruin the prospect and kill their confidence. See the Blackhawks and the Bears for very recent exhibits of this.

Even Cooper Flagg won't save this garbage organization from being garbage. We need ownership changes across the city.

I don't think that's true in basketball.

in Rose's 3rd season we had the best record in the league. Same ownership. Ownership is definitely a negative factor for us, but if there is one sport that can easily overcome incompetence at all other levels it is basketball where a single superstar can make a massive difference.

If Cooper Flagg is the real deal, he'll save whatever franchise drafts him. Maybe not to the point of titles, maybe that would require good managers / owners, but at least to the extent of getting to good, making the playoffs regularly.

[drosestruts]

2nd game in a row we played absolutely awful and unlike against Charlotte it bit us in the butt tonight.

Coby has been awful. Vuc has been awful.

Honestly, if your name isn't Zach LaVine or Lonzo Ball, chances are you've been playing awful.

Highlight of the night for me was the camera's catching a disappointed Lonzo saying "come on Coby" after Coby committed one of his several dumb turnovers or terrible shots.

It doesn't seem coaches are holding players accountable for bad play. Perhaps Lonzo will.

That's losses to Washington, New Orleans, and Utah now. Each of those losses are embarrassing and the team and players should be embarrassed. Will they play like it? Will it change their mindset? Probably not.

Will we do anything about it? Also probably not

For as trade happy as this board and fandom can be - its always important to remember that the other team has to want what you're offering. Why would anyone want Vucevic or even Coby White when they're playing like this?

Saturday should be an awesome night. Rose is getting honored, and there's going to be a lot of former Bulls in the house. The last two games have been super disappointing. If they come out and play like garbage on Saturday it would be a slap to the face on the fans and the franchise.

Start Ball-LaVine-Craig-Williams-Vuc or Smith (honestly doesn't matter much) and tell everyone else to play hard or sit on the bench.

[MGB8]

On the bright side, it was a good “tank” loss. IMO, Bulls are 60/40 not going to make the playoffs in. Right now they are in 10th despite having been reasonably healthy, but Philly has gelled and gotten healthier, and is only a half game behind.

Most likely Philly will make the play-in group, and the big issue is Detroit, Atlanta or Indiana falling behind both them and the Bulls (where Hornets and Raptors had injuries cause them to embrace the tank early - Raptors being a particular disappointment compared to talent level).

Anyway, Detroit just suffered a big injury with Ivey… but they want to win. Atlanta has exceeded expectations this season, and while they seem a blow or two away from a rut, also seem to want to win. And Indiana’s underperformance - Nesmith out being a big part of that - still hasn’t made them worse than the Bulls.

Mind you, IMO if the Bulls bench Coby for Ayo when he comes back, things could stabilize and Bulls could easily move ahead one of or more of those 3. Hence my 40% estimate that they make the play in. But, still… good tank loss. Slightly better lotto odds, and a seemingly deep draft, regardless.

[CROBulls]

On the bright side, it was a good “tank” loss. IMO, Bulls are 60/40 not going to make the playoffs in. Right now they are in 10th despite having been reasonably healthy, but Philly has gelled and gotten healthier, and is only a half game behind.

Most likely Philly will make the play-in group, and the big issue is Detroit, Atlanta or Indiana falling behind both them and the Bulls (where Hornets and Raptors had injuries cause them to embrace the tank early - Raptors being a particular disappointment compared to talent level).

Anyway, Detroit just suffered a big injury with Ivey… but they want to win. Atlanta has exceeded expectations this season, and while they seem a blow or two away from a rut, also seem to want to win. And Indiana’s underperformance - Nesmith out being a big part of that - still hasn’t made them worse than the Bulls.

Mind you, IMO if the Bulls bench Coby for Ayo when he comes back, things could stabilize and Bulls could easily move ahead one of or more of those 3. Hence my 40% estimate that they make the play in. But, still… good tank loss. Slightly better lotto odds, and a seemingly deep draft, regardless.

I mean this is what this team is. It's not terrible, but it's bad. Still enough in this league to win 30-35 games. I dont know how, but they do. It's capable winning on resting days a team with 3 games in 4 nights. They will win enough games in certain period of season above what tanking team do. And when tanking teams get serious about keeping their lottery chances high they will go from 5th or 6th worst team to 11th and lose a pick.

I mean everybody knows that and it's frustrating to watch.

[sco]

On the bright side, it was a good “tank” loss. IMO, Bulls are 60/40 not going to make the playoffs in. Right now they are in 10th despite having been reasonably healthy, but Philly has gelled and gotten healthier, and is only a half game behind.

Most likely Philly will make the play-in group, and the big issue is Detroit, Atlanta or Indiana falling behind both them and the Bulls (where Hornets and Raptors had injuries cause them to embrace the tank early - Raptors being a particular disappointment compared to talent level).

Anyway, Detroit just suffered a big injury with Ivey… but they want to win. Atlanta has exceeded expectations this season, and while they seem a blow or two away from a rut, also seem to want to win. And Indiana’s underperformance - Nesmith out being a big part of that - still hasn’t made them worse than the Bulls.

Mind you, IMO if the Bulls bench Coby for Ayo when he comes back, things could stabilize and Bulls could easily move ahead one of or more of those 3. Hence my 40% estimate that they make the play in. But, still… good tank loss. Slightly better lotto odds, and a seemingly deep draft, regardless.

I mean this is what this team is. It's not terrible, but it's bad. Still enough in this league to win 30-35 games. I dont know how, but they do. It's capable winning on resting days a team with 3 games in 4 nights. They will win enough games in certain period of season above what tanking team do. And when tanking teams get serious about keeping their lottery chances high they will go from 5th or 6th worst team to 11th and lose a pick.

I mean everybody knows that and it's frustrating to watch.

Honestly, I think this team is worse than it's record. Based on my recollection about half of our wins were against teams missing a key player.

[Stratmaster]

So Denver should have fired Mike Malone after they lost to the Wiz a few weeks ago? In an 82 game season, off nights happen. Especially the day after New Years Eve. I'm no huge Donovan fan but firing a coach off a single game result is incredibly short sighted. And like has been mentioned, if anything the Bulls have been overachieving this year and are projecting well above their predicted win total this year.

Mike Malone is a championship title winning coach, he should be given a ton more grace than Donovan who hasn't proven anything and done anything reputable his entire tenure here.

And every bulls fan knew they were going to win more than that win total. We knew what we had. We also knew we would get some wins despite Donovan not because of him.

That's exactly the point. He also has one of the best players of all time on his team. And they still lost to the worst team in the NBA too. A 1 game sample size is beyond pointless. Especially in this era of infinity 3 pointers. Donovan is probably middle of the pack coaching wise and shows that regularly with some of his decisions but at the end of the day coaches get judged on wins and losses and he has done nothing in that sense to get him fired. A couple weeks ago, they beat a full strength Celtics team in Boston.

The Bulls are 171-181 with him coaching. That's a 352 game sample and this is his 5th season. For 3 years of that tenure here was given 3 all-star level players in the roster at one time.

When the Bulls struggle he has had 2 strategies to address their issues.

When DDR was here, it was give the ball to Demar. Since Demar is gone it is give the ball to Vuc. Several of the Bulls turnovers yesterday were trying to force the ball inside to Vuc.

He has started Williams almost every game that Williams has been healthy despite him being one of the worst starting players in the league. His offense continues to rely heavily on Coby White and Vuc chucking 3 point shots while neutering Zach Lavine. He has gotten nothing out of Craig or Carter. The Bulls as a group continue to make poor decisions late in games. His rotations make absolutely no sense. He is routinely out-coached by the opposition and the Bulls start halves poorly on a regular basis and make stupid mistakes and plays coming out of time outs.

I've wanted him gone for a long time. But the Atlanta game was the final straw.

What is it you are judging him on that warrants 5 years of failure continuing to be rewarded? What has he done to show that he should continue to coach the Bulls?

[ChettheJet]

This was a microcosm of the Bulls the last 5 years. They come out flat against a team that they should put away in the third quarter. Things go bad when Vuc makes his first 3 because he thinks that means he is hot so he keeps shooting. This game was lost when they started jacking up quick 3's in the first quarter and were 1 for 10 and I think 2 for 16. Sure you want to shoot but move the ball around for 10 seconds, maybe there's an easy dunk to be had, don't just fire up the first open shot. Doing that gives the defense a break so they're ready to run the ball right back at you. Zach scored his points, the only saving grace in that will be if some team decides he's the shooter they're willing to pay for.

[FriedRise]

On the bright side, it was a good “tank” loss. IMO, Bulls are 60/40 not going to make the playoffs in. Right now they are in 10th despite having been reasonably healthy, but Philly has gelled and gotten healthier, and is only a half game behind.

Most likely Philly will make the play-in group, and the big issue is Detroit, Atlanta or Indiana falling behind both them and the Bulls (where Hornets and Raptors had injuries cause them to embrace the tank early - Raptors being a particular disappointment compared to talent level).

Anyway, Detroit just suffered a big injury with Ivey… but they want to win. Atlanta has exceeded expectations this season, and while they seem a blow or two away from a rut, also seem to want to win. And Indiana’s underperformance - Nesmith out being a big part of that - still hasn’t made them worse than the Bulls.

Mind you, IMO if the Bulls bench Coby for Ayo when he comes back, things could stabilize and Bulls could easily move ahead one of or more of those 3. Hence my 40% estimate that they make the play in. But, still… good tank loss. Slightly better lotto odds, and a seemingly deep draft, regardless.

I mean this is what this team is. It's not terrible, but it's bad. Still enough in this league to win 30-35 games. I dont know how, but they do. It's capable winning on resting days a team with 3 games in 4 nights. They will win enough games in certain period of season above what tanking team do. And when tanking teams get serious about keeping their lottery chances high they will go from 5th or 6th worst team to 11th and lose a pick.

I mean everybody knows that and it's frustrating to watch.

Honestly, I think this team is worse than it's record. Based on my recollection about half of our wins were against teams missing a key player.

They definitely are worse than their record. bballreference has them overachieving by 2 wins. They're statistically worse than last year but have the same number of wins at the same point of the season.

Like I've always said, the big factor is the 3pt shooting where if they catch a team on a hot shooting night, 99% of the time they'll win that game (the 1% being that Atlanta game where they lost despite shooting over 50% from 3 and scoring 133pts). They don't really have any other gears beyond that, but the one gear they have can neutralize a lot of their shortcomings if the shots are falling. If the shots aren't falling, then you get something like these last 2 games where they needed OT and got blown out by the worst teams in the league.

[jnrjr79]

Not to mention, A #1 pick in a draft with a great #1 pick worthy prospect isn't enough to cover up the stink of a **** organization. It's more likely to just ruin the prospect and kill their confidence. See the Blackhawks and the Bears for very recent exhibits of this.

Even Cooper Flagg won't save this garbage organization from being garbage. We need ownership changes across the city.

I don't think that's true in basketball.

in Rose's 3rd season we had the best record in the league. Same ownership. Ownership is definitely a negative factor for us, but if there is one sport that can easily overcome incompetence at all other levels it is basketball where a single superstar can make a massive difference.

If Cooper Flagg is the real deal, he'll save whatever franchise drafts him. Maybe not to the point of titles, maybe that would require good managers / owners, but at least to the extent of getting to good, making the playoffs regularly.

Ownership probably matters less now than ever, because the revisions to the salary cap/apron/tax structure have had some success in reducing the number of teams willing to say "f it" in perpetuity and pay a ton of tax.

Like you said, it still hurts, but a good front office could theoretically overcome it. I'd like to see them at least put together a top 4 team in the conference that supposedly is the trigger for ownership to pay tax and see whether they do it.

[dougthonus]

Ownership probably matters less now than ever, because the revisions to the salary cap/apron/tax structure have had some success in reducing the number of teams willing to say "f it" in perpetuity and pay a ton of tax.

Like you said, it still hurts, but a good front office could theoretically overcome it. I'd like to see them at least put together a top 4 team in the conference that supposedly is the trigger for ownership to pay tax and see whether they do it.

They did it once in the Rose era when they reached the ECF before Rose tore his ACL. That's the only time we've paid it, but in fairness, it's also perhaps the only time that it made sense to pay it.

[coldfish]

Ownership probably matters less now than ever, because the revisions to the salary cap/apron/tax structure have had some success in reducing the number of teams willing to say "f it" in perpetuity and pay a ton of tax.

Like you said, it still hurts, but a good front office could theoretically overcome it. I'd like to see them at least put together a top 4 team in the conference that supposedly is the trigger for ownership to pay tax and see whether they do it.

They did it once in the Rose era when they reached the ECF before Rose tore his ACL. That's the only time we've paid it, but in fairness, it's also perhaps the only time that it made sense to pay it.

Right now the Cavs are on a 70+ win pace. Their owner has been paying tax for years to build that team, despite middling results.

Jerry’s “I will only pay for a winner” model means that the only route to being a great team is drafting an all time great player. He would have broken up most of the good teams in the nba using his criteria.

[CROBulls]

Honestly, I think this team is worse than it's record. Based on my recollection about half of our wins were against teams missing a key player.

Everyone know Bulls are worse, but we somehow having better record. But then you have people on this board who will try convince you we are better, we are young and we have good future. And moment I hear that I dont know if I am speaking with a troll or someone with low IQ. It's not only that team is frustrating, but everybody from tv commentators, current players on a team, our GM, I will also add some of fans around this organization acts like this meme.

Spoiler:

And I dont get what is fine. Is this what we want? Where is frustration, where are standards for this organization (6x fricking world titles). Ok, you dont want to tank, so tell me then solution to fix this and when Bulls will be good. I will be first to support you all. But you all go silent, because you dont want to watch 25 win team instead 35 two years in row. Big difference. This message not only goes to fans, but to front office.

Later all act shocked like Pikachu when they lose to worst team in league, Wizards.

[dougthonus]

Right now the Cavs are on a 70+ win pace. Their owner has been paying tax for years to build that team, despite middling results.

The Cavs have not paid the tax since the LeBron era according to spotrac unless I'm misreading something. They are projected to be about 2M and change in this year, so this does not seem accurate to me that they built this team through years of tax spending. They've yet to pay the tax for this team and still may not pay it this year.

Jerry’s “I will only pay for a winner” model means that the only route to being a great team is drafting an all time great player. He would have broken up most of the good teams in the nba using his criteria.

I haven't looked at it robustly in awhile, but generally speaking, the teams willing to pay the tax are all teams that expect to get to the 2nd round or better (or thought that at one point and are now locked in and stuck). It is a rare exception for teams to pay the tax to go from not in the playoffs to in the playoffs or for teams that are 1st round exit fodder to try to make marginal improvements.

There probably are some exceptions around teams with massive revenue streams (like the Lakers / Warriors) that aren't available to other teams and are thus willing to pay the tax in what feels like fairly unrealistic hopes.

Projected tax payers:
Suns (185M)
TWolves (95M)
Bucks (74M)
Celtics (65M)
Lakers (53M)
Knicks (36M)
Nuggets (20M)
76ers (17M)
Warriors (15M)
Mavs (7.9M)
Clippers (6.1M)
Pelicans (3.1M)
Cavaliers (2.8M)

Of these teams, none of them are using the tax to try to build up something up, they mostly were established good teams that you'd view as 2nd round teams or better or teams that thought they'd be that good but are now stuck and can't get out of the tax and don't know what to do (Suns / Bucks). Several like the Warriors/Clippers drastically lowered their tax bill through decisions that probably made their teams worse this year.

What's kind of nuts is how little you get for all that tax. The Bucks (74M tax bill) have 22M in extra salary over the cap. You're effectively paying 100M to have an additional Patrick Williams type player on your team.

[jnrjr79]

Right now the Cavs are on a 70+ win pace. Their owner has been paying tax for years to build that team, despite middling results.

The Cavs have not paid the tax since the LeBron era according to spotrac unless I'm misreading something. They are projected to be about 2M and change in this year, so this does not seem accurate to me that they built this team through years of tax spending. They've yet to pay the tax for this team and still may not pay it this year.

Jerry’s “I will only pay for a winner” model means that the only route to being a great team is drafting an all time great player. He would have broken up most of the good teams in the nba using his criteria.

I haven't looked at it robustly in awhile, but generally speaking, the teams willing to pay the tax are all teams that expect to get to the 2nd round or better (or thought that at one point and are now locked in and stuck). It is a rare exception for teams to pay the tax to go from not in the playoffs to in the playoffs or for teams that are 1st round exit fodder to try to make marginal improvements.

There probably are some exceptions around teams with massive revenue streams (like the Lakers / Warriors) that aren't available to other teams and are thus willing to pay the tax in what feels like fairly unrealistic hopes.

According to Spotrac, about half the league is into the tax: Phoenix, Minny, Boston, Milwaukee, NYK, LAL, Miami, Denver, Philly, GS, Dallas, Clippers, Pellies, Cleveland, Indy (barely), and Brooklyn (barely).

Pretty much all these teams are contenders or teams that "went for it" and it's not working out well. A good chunk of those teams are probably going to make moves to get under it before the season is over. Most of those teams appeared to go into the tax after building their core.

I'm not happy about the Bulls' luxury tax history and am skeptical of how free AK would really be to enter the tax, but I also don't see why you'd do it with this squad, absent some mega-star wanting to force his way onto the team.

EDIT: I see you edited and basically said the same stuff I did.

[Jcool0]

Ownership probably matters less now than ever, because the revisions to the salary cap/apron/tax structure have had some success in reducing the number of teams willing to say "f it" in perpetuity and pay a ton of tax.

Like you said, it still hurts, but a good front office could theoretically overcome it. I'd like to see them at least put together a top 4 team in the conference that supposedly is the trigger for ownership to pay tax and see whether they do it.

They did it once in the Rose era when they reached the ECF before Rose tore his ACL. That's the only time we've paid it, but in fairness, it's also perhaps the only time that it made sense to pay it.

Right now the Cavs are on a 70+ win pace. Their owner has been paying tax for years to build that team, despite middling results.

Jerry’s “I will only pay for a winner” model means that the only route to being a great team is drafting an all time great player. He would have broken up most of the good teams in the nba using his criteria.

Cleveland is projected to 63.7 wins & has never paid the luxury tax with this current before this year and it's only 2.5M. In comparison GS will pay 15M this year, Miami 24M, NY 36M, LAL 42M.

[SfBull]

As long as Coby and Pat are playing starter's minutes and Donovan is the head coach, this team will never make any progress.

This is the real tank.

[MalagaBulls]

This team is overachieving probably more than almost anyone in the NBA this year and you want the coach fired. You should be getting way more pissed at the wins because those are costing this franchise any sense of a future

You still dreaming of a tank that is not going to happen and decisions were made years ago to stop that from happening. Furthermore this is not the 90s and early 2000s anymore piling up losses doesn't guarantee you top picks. Atlanta got the 1st pick and they were in the play in last year. Although these players can operate like idiots some nights there is still to much talent on the team to expect a ton of losses so rooting for losing at this point is just a waste of time. Where they land is where they land.

Who wants a team where the players lay down and lose? Players suppose to say, hey let's lose for the sake of the future of a franchise that could trade me tomorrow? To draft someone that could potentially be that players replacement? Some of y'all are just not realistic anymore. A proper tank should have been decided before the season even started. Otherwise the fringe play in team is what this was always going to be.

But the mediocrity can't be unpunished and anyone with a set of eyes can see how bad this system looks and bad system and bad effort is just not on the players. You all want to keep hoping for draft miracles in a situation that is not going to bring it. Regardless better coaching would get more out of these players. And losing big to one of the worst teams in the east should be a fire able offense.

Not to mention, A #1 pick in a draft with a great #1 pick worthy prospect isn't enough to cover up the stink of a **** organization. It's more likely to just ruin the prospect and kill their confidence. See the Blackhawks and the Bears for very recent exhibits of this.

Even Cooper Flagg won't save this garbage organization from being garbage. We need ownership changes across the city.

Could not agree more, 100% garbage ownership and FO's across the Chicago spectrum.

[coldfish]

Right now the Cavs are on a 70+ win pace. Their owner has been paying tax for years to build that team, despite middling results.

The Cavs have not paid the tax since the LeBron era according to spotrac unless I'm misreading something. They are projected to be about 2M and change in this year, so this does not seem accurate to me that they built this team through years of tax spending. They've yet to pay the tax for this team and still may not pay it this year.

Jerry’s “I will only pay for a winner” model means that the only route to being a great team is drafting an all time great player. He would have broken up most of the good teams in the nba using his criteria.

I haven't looked at it robustly in awhile, but generally speaking, the teams willing to pay the tax are all teams that expect to get to the 2nd round or better (or thought that at one point and are now locked in and stuck). It is a rare exception for teams to pay the tax to go from not in the playoffs to in the playoffs or for teams that are 1st round exit fodder to try to make marginal improvements.

There probably are some exceptions around teams with massive revenue streams (like the Lakers / Warriors) that aren't available to other teams and are thus willing to pay the tax in what feels like fairly unrealistic hopes.

Projected tax payers:
Suns (185M)
TWolves (95M)
Bucks (74M)
Celtics (65M)
Lakers (53M)
Knicks (36M)
Nuggets (20M)
76ers (17M)
Warriors (15M)
Mavs (7.9M)
Clippers (6.1M)
Pelicans (3.1M)
Cavaliers (2.8M)

Of these teams, none of them are using the tax to try to build up something up, they mostly were established good teams that you'd view as 2nd round teams or better or teams that thought they'd be that good but are now stuck and can't get out of the tax and don't know what to do (Suns / Bucks). Several like the Warriors/Clippers drastically lowered their tax bill through decisions that probably made their teams worse this year.

What's kind of nuts is how little you get for all that tax. The Bucks (74M tax bill) have 22M in extra salary over the cap. You're effectively paying 100M to have an additional Patrick Williams type player on your team.

Remind me not to post on mobile from memory. I was wrong on cavs.

@jcool - they are on a 72 win pace I believe. 29-4

[dougthonus]

Remind me not to post on mobile from memory. I was wrong on cavs.

Haha, I find it super hard to post here from the phone (or even read from my phone), so you have my sympathies.