Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE — Tim Duncan

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Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE — Tim Duncan 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Thu Jan 2, 2025 10:27 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 2002-03.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 17:30PM EST on Sunday, January 5th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.
Doctor MJ wrote:Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

There is a significant difference between a properly justified and internally consistent contrarian vote, and a vote whose purpose is to undermine the project itself. Ballots which threaten to do the latter and derail project discussion via blatant vote manipulation are liable to be tossed. If it happens twice, the offending poster will be removed from the project.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by One_and_Done » Thu Jan 2, 2025 10:31 pm

This is going to be Duncan for me, by a mile. I'll probably have him 1st the next few years too.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Thu Jan 2, 2025 11:09 pm

The league's top teams were NBA Champion San Antonio with Tim Duncan and the still defensively viable David Robinson, and Dallas led by Dirk and Nash with Sacramento led by Chris Webber, Peja, and Vlade only 1 game back, all in the West.

Roughly 10 games back was a 2nd tier western group of Minnesota with Kevin Garnett with little help, Portland led by Rasheed Wallace with Scottie Pippen, LA led by Shaq and Kobe dealing with a rape accusation against Kobe, and Utah in the last hurrah of Malone and Stockton.

In the East, and also roughly grouped 10 games back of the top 3, Detroit with Billups and Wallace, New Jersey with Kidd and Kenyon Martin who swept Detroit to make it to the finals, Indiana with Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest, Philly where Iverson had Keith Van Horn as his second, and New Orleans with Jamal Mashburn and Baron Davis.

Duncan was MVP, Ben Wallace DPOY and rebounding leader, Tracey McGrady led in scoring, and Kidd in assists. Tmac was the clear leader in box score compilation stats, with Duncan and Garnett the strongest otherwise.

Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk
4. Kidd
5. McGrady
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by One_and_Done » Thu Jan 2, 2025 11:34 pm

1) Duncan

2) Shaq
3) KG
4) T-Mac
5) Dirk

Much like 2002, Duncan carried the Spurs almost completely. He was their defensive anchor, and almost every offensive possession ran through him. I don’t know what the description of D.Rob as “still defensively viable” means, but the Spurs were 15-3 without him in 2003, and the following year their defense improved without him (and not by a small amount, it went from 99.7 to 94.1). This turnaround in 2004 took place after they brought in Rasho, Horry and Hedo to replace D.Rob and S.Jax. The latter was still very inconsistent in 2003, which is why he only got offered a minimum contract after he turned the Spurs down, but he’s still a better defensive player than Hedo or Horry (especially in the RS). Rasho is a solid rim protector, but he was nothing special. The fact that they could replace D.Rob with these guys and get better tells you how little impact he was having. D.Rob has been a role player for several years now, and 2003 was by far his worst year. In 2005 the Spurs D was still better than it was in 2003, despite the introduction of the touch rule changes that opened up offense in the league.

Manu was a rookie in 2003. He would go on to be an ace role player in 04, and a star in 05, but in 2003 he still was a very inconsistent and flawed player. The Spurs were 10-3 without him. He was not the needle mover for the Spurs, it was almost all Duncan.

Tony Parker was a 2nd year player. He’s improved, but he still wasn’t good enough to keep his minutes safe from a rando journeyman point guard named Speedy Claxton, who actually took a bunch of his minutes in the playoffs. By game 6 of the finals Speedy was playing as many minutes as Parker, who was getting abused by Jason Kidd.

It remains one of the greatest carrying efforts of all-time, to take this team to 60 wins and a title. People complain about the weak opponents, but he beat prime Shaq and Kobe while decisively outplaying Shaq. That alone is remarkable, given his support cast. He was up 2-1 against the Dirk/Nash Mavs before Dirk got hurt, and based on how much the Spurs had owned the Mavs around this period I think there’s little doubt they were beating the Mavs. The Kings might have been a different story, but the Spurs can only play the teams in front of them. If they had lost, it certainly wouldn’t have been due to Duncan. Dude was incredible. GOAT carrying season IMO.

I was torn on the #2 spot, just because of the extra games KG played. That said, Shaq was just the superior player to KG so for now I’m going to have to go with Shaq. I probably gave T-Mac more consideration to move up, in what is his peak season, but ultimately I have kept him at 4 for now. Back then, the league was just easier to dominate if you were a big as opposed to a wing like T-Mac. Dirk, leading the Mavs to an impressive 60 win season, brings up the rear at #5.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Fri Jan 3, 2025 3:37 am

1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kevin Garnett
3 - Shaq
4 - Dirk
5 - Jason Kidd

Has to be 1. Carries basically no one to 60 wins AND a championship outscoring shaq AGAIN to do it? 10-3 without your 2nd best guy is crazy lol. What's crazy is I'm pretty sure almost everyone says Shaq was better. Like honest, how? Duncan's the best defender and he scores more AND he gets more assists whenever they play and he wins more games and championhips without a Kobe Bryant hanging around but people say Shaq was better? Kind of seems like Shaq was just lucky Duncan got hurt in 2000. I know there are some guys who'll be made about me saying this but I think this POY thing has me wondering why MJ gets in GOAT talks but Duncan doesn't. Just out here winning 60 games every year with washed Drob. Just regular outclassing the most dominant ever whatever that's supposed to mean and then he scores 30 against a three-peat lakers to end them and has one of the craziest stat-lines ever in the finals and on top of that he's the league's best defender? If Lebron's so good winning 66 and 61 with no one. How about Duncan winning 60 and a ring? I get he didn't beat the 73 win warriors but you'd think from how everyone talks about him he was just on this great team ever year and 2003 was a fluke or something. I'm pretty sure most people take Bird over him? Might be the most underrated guy ever like just seems unreal to be saying he wasn't the best because he didn't score enough while winning 60 something games every year with 30 minute David Robinson. Quadruple double in the finals too just crazy.

Pretty sure KG's team is bad and I've never seen anyone say he's not a great defender or anything so when he's got 50+ wins and then he puts up the same stats as shaq while getting 2 W's against Kobe and Shaq's winning 3 in a row I think he's got to be 2. I don't know all his impact rapm stuff goes but iirc he's pretty awesome there also. Putting Shaq above because he's better when he's got worse stats and isn't a great defender just seems like punishing a guy for having worse teammates which I thought you didn't like doing?

Dirk averaging like 11 to lose isn't a good look if you're supposed to be a scorer. Isn't he a weak defender too? He went further but Shaq played better probably.

Feel like you need to get votes when you're the best guy and you average almost 20 points and 10 assists and are great at defense and make the final and even win a couple games. Weak east and whatever but it's not like the Spurs destroyed them or something.

Defensive Player of the Year

1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Ben Wallace
3 - Kevin Garnett

Offensive Player of the Year

1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Shaq
3 - Dirk
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by AEnigma » Fri Jan 3, 2025 4:20 am

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan
2. Ben Wallace
3. Kevin Garnett

AEnigma wrote:I generally have Ben and Duncan split this 2002-07 period, and my first point of distinction tends to be playing time. This year… Ben misses 9 games, and while that gives us a clearer picture of the type of defensive lift he provided to the team, it weakens his case relative to Duncan playing 300 more minutes and winning the title. I tend to assess these two as extremely comparable year to year based on my interpretation of the various defensive impact metrics available to us (with both being consistently marked in the top three from 2003-06).

Garnett sets a career high in minutes and finishes third in the actual award, ahead of Duncan. And due respect to Metta Artest, but he is not exerting as much impact as an all-time big.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Tracy McGrady
2. Steve Nash
3. Dirk Nowitzki

rk2023 wrote: In an article I previously wrote, I described TMac's offensive game and value before.

Some stats:

33.4 Adjusted Points (leading the league) on +4.5 relative-to-league average true shooting
5.4 Assists, along with a 9.9 Offensive Box Creation and 7.6 Passer Rating
6.4 Rebounds (1.6 coming on the offensive end)
5.8 BackPicks Box Plus-Minus, 4.4 Augmented Plus-Minus / Game (4th and 5th in the league)

Posting one of the highest possessional scoring rates in NBA history, McGrady demonstrated a versatile scoring arsenal – leveraging his size and quickness for a long mid-range and 3-Point driven shot diet (57.7% of his total field-goal attempts, shooting 43.1 and 38.6 % on these level shots respectively) with stellar low post play and basket drives in addition. In a situation with relatively poor spacing and offensive support, McGrady was often responsible for creating possessions. His volume scoring gave him significant attention through doubles – where he showed a solid ability to pass out of them – dishing assists over the heads of defenders (the hyperlinked clip shows career highlights, including his 2002-03 season). How much McGrady was responsible directly impacted his team’s situation. With a 105.2 rated team offensive (good for 10th in the league), 74% of this production came with McGrady on – where the team posted a 109.3 offense (5.7 points above league average). In the other 26%, the Magic posted only a 91.8 offensive rating.

This goes to show how much of a load McGrady shouldered, where he ultimately brought the Magic to the first round of the playoffs in an 8 vs. 1 seed matchup against the 2002-03 Pistons (whom were anchored by a 99.9 rated team defense). While McGrady had some struggles down the stretch, he still performed well in totality. His averages in the series, listed below, show a somewhat decline in creation, but this can certainly be explored further when considering an inferior (for star standards) supporting cast and the opponent faced. In a better situation, there would certainly be a chance McGrady could engine a championship level offense.

32.5 Points on +5.5 relative-to-opponent average true shooting
4.4 Assists, with an 8.1 Offensive Box Creation and 5.8 Passer Rating
6.2 Rebounds (1.4 coming on the offensive end)
5.0 BackPicks Box Plus-Minus

Taking the two Mavericks over the Lakers because they were more successful at every turn: games played, games won, postseason series won, team offensive/net rating, duo offensive/net rating, team offensive/net rating against the Spurs… Taking Nash over Dirk almost exclusively because of Dirk’s injury.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by OhayoKD » Fri Jan 3, 2025 4:27 am

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kevin Garnett
3 - Shaq
4 - Dirk
5 - Jason Kidd

Has to be 1. Carries basically no one to 60 wins AND a championship outscoring shaq AGAIN to do it? 1015-3 without your 2nd best guy is crazy lol.

Fixed it for ya.

In case you're wondering that is a 68 win pace.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jan 3, 2025 4:37 am

OhayoKD wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kevin Garnett
3 - Shaq
4 - Dirk
5 - Jason Kidd

Has to be 1. Carries basically no one to 60 wins AND a championship outscoring shaq AGAIN to do it? 1015-3 without your 2nd best guy is crazy lol.

Fixed it for ya.

In case you're wondering that is a 68 win pace.

I assume he means Manu was the 2nd best player. He probably wasn't, but honestly the non-TD players were so bad compared to Duncan I'm not even sure who gets the dubious honour of being Tim's Robin.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Fri Jan 3, 2025 4:43 am

One_and_Done wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kevin Garnett
3 - Shaq
4 - Dirk
5 - Jason Kidd

Has to be 1. Carries basically no one to 60 wins AND a championship outscoring shaq AGAIN to do it? 1015-3 without your 2nd best guy is crazy lol.

Fixed it for ya.

In case you're wondering that is a 68 win pace.

I assume he means Manu was the 2nd best player. He probably wasn't, but honestly the non-TD players were so bad compared to Duncan I'm not even sure who gets the dubious honour of being Tim's Robin.

was just going off name honest. But like manu has less points and last i checked isn't some all time defender so probably not. Just looks like an insane carry job lol
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by Djoker » Fri Jan 3, 2025 5:35 am

Wow! None of the early ballots so far have Kobe on them. Off the top of my head, he's probably gonna be #2 after Duncan for me. Super strong season by Bean. Lakers didn't win another title because they were just horrible outside of their Big 2... and I got Kobe over Shaq for this season.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by trelos6 » Fri Jan 3, 2025 5:38 am

OPOY

1.Tracy McGrady. 31.5 pp75 (led the league), +4.5 rTS%. Team rOrtg was a +1.6. Best playmaker in the league not named Steve Nash. In the playoffs, faced a tough Detroit team, and put up 29.5 pp75 on the same efficiency.

2.Steve Nash. The best playmaker in the league. 20.9 pp75 on +5.7 rTS%. Dallas were the best offense in the league, with +7.1 rOrtg. In the playoffs, he slowed down his volume to 17 pp75, on +5 rTS%.

3.Kevin Garnett. 22.2 pp75 on +3.4 rTS%. Team rOrtg +2.5. The Wolves were the 5th best offense in the league. KG became the point forward, and it’s remarkable that this team had a functioning offense at all, let alone 5th!.


DPOY

1.Ben Wallace. +5.82 DPIPM. -4.4 defensive xRAPM. 90 defensive rating! (it gets better). Hard to go past one of the best when all he does is focus on defense.

2.Tim Duncan. Anchored the Spurs defense, and carried them to a title.

3.Kevin Garnett. Full time PF defensively now, and his DREB numbers went up. Still insanely mobile as a one man defensive unit.


POY

1.Tim Duncan. Manu and Parker were young, D Rob was old. Duncan was amazing on both ends, doing it all for the Spurs. +3.83 OPIPM, +3.28 DPIPM. +7.11 PIPM. 26.99 Wins Added.

2.Kevin Garnett. Extremely good near peak season from KG. Would be 1 if not for the brilliant peak season of Tim Duncan. +4.91 OPIPM, +3.03 DPIPM, +7.94 PIPM. 24.36 Wins Added.

3.Shaquille O'Neal. The missed games isn't as compelling as Tmac was only 8 games more. Shaq was 28.3 pp75, +8.3 rTS%. In the playoffs he dropped to 26.2, +5%. +4.62 OPIPM, +0.66 DPIPM, +5.27 PIPM, 15.70 Wins Added.

4.Tracy McGrady. +6.31 OPIPM, -1.35 DPIPM, +4.96 PIPM, 16.37 Wins Added.

5.Kobe Bryant. 28.2 pp75 on +3.1 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +3.6. Playoffs he had the same volume on +1%. A top 5 playmaker in the league. +4.24 OPIPM, -0.35 DPIPM, +3.89 PIPM. 17.16 Wins Added.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jan 3, 2025 5:59 am

Djoker wrote:Wow! None of the early ballots so far have Kobe on them. Off the top of my head, he's probably gonna be #2 after Duncan for me. Super strong season by Bean. Lakers didn't win another title because they were just horrible outside of their Big 2... and I got Kobe over Shaq for this season.

You seem to be way higher on Kobe than most on here. At best he'd be in contention for #5 for me. He's not better than Duncan, Shaq or KG. Then we have T-Mac's peak this year, which was clearly above Kobe's very best season, never mind this one.

T-Mac per100: 42/8.5/7.2 on 564 TS%, 116 Ortg/104 Drtg, with absolutely nothing around him.

Kobe per100: 37.6/8.6/7.3 on 550 TS%, 111 Ortg/103 Drtg, with Shaq there to draw attention & protect the middle. As usual the Lakers were mediocre with just Kobe and no Shaq (6-8).

He's debatable with Dirk and the next lot, but 2nd seems implausible.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by OhayoKD » Fri Jan 3, 2025 6:04 am

One_and_Done wrote:
Djoker wrote:Wow! None of the early ballots so far have Kobe on them. Off the top of my head, he's probably gonna be #2 after Duncan for me. Super strong season by Bean. Lakers didn't win another title because they were just horrible outside of their Big 2... and I got Kobe over Shaq for this season.

You seem to be way higher on Kobe than most on here. At best he'd be in contention for #5 for me. He's not better than Duncan, Shaq or KG. Then we have T-Mac's peak this year, which was clearly above Kobe's very best season, never mind this one.

He's debatable with Dirk and the next lot, but 2nd seems implausible

Something tells me RAPM has gone back to not mattering.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by Djoker » Fri Jan 3, 2025 6:39 am

One_and_Done wrote:
Djoker wrote:Wow! None of the early ballots so far have Kobe on them. Off the top of my head, he's probably gonna be #2 after Duncan for me. Super strong season by Bean. Lakers didn't win another title because they were just horrible outside of their Big 2... and I got Kobe over Shaq for this season.

You seem to be way higher on Kobe than most on here. At best he'd be in contention for #5 for me. He's not better than Duncan, Shaq or KG. Then we have T-Mac's peak this year, which was clearly above Kobe's very best season, never mind this one.

T-Mac per100: 42/8.5/7.2 on 564 TS%, 116 Ortg/104 Drtg, with absolutely nothing around him.

Kobe per100: 37.6/8.6/7.3 on 550 TS%, 111 Ortg/103 Drtg, with Shaq there to draw attention & protect the middle. As usual the Lakers were mediocre with just Kobe and no Shaq (6-8).

He's debatable with Dirk and the next lot, but 2nd seems implausible.


T-Mac will probably make my ballot and he definitely has a strong season but the argument for T-Mac > Kobe gives too much credit to T-Mac for putting up huge numbers on a bad team. Besides, he never had a season anywhere near this one so it feels a bit like a one-hit wonder. Not that I would penalize him for that if I felt the season was that good (because POY is for this year only) but it leads me to believe that the lower end valuation of T-Mac in 2003 is lower than the lower end valuation of Kobe in 2003. If that makes sense...

Kobe also took the reigns over Shaq this season. Not to mention Kobe played all 82 games and Shaq only 65. Don't really see much of an argument for Shaq over Kobe here.

KG I'm generally lower on than many others for reasons I've posted about in many threads. Basically I just don't think he's that good offensively.

OhayoKD wrote:Something tells me RAPM has gone back to not mattering.


I feel this is a jab at me.

Me mentioning RAPM in 1993 was a response to you using tiny (and mostly not clean) WOWY samples to make conclusions about impact instead of using RAPM which is generally more reliable.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jan 3, 2025 6:46 am

Djoker wrote:
T-Mac will probably make my ballot and he definitely has a strong season but the argument for T-Mac > Kobe gives too much credit to T-Mac for putting up huge numbers on a bad team. Besides, he never had a season anywhere near this one so it feels a bit like a one-hit wonder. Not that I would penalize him for that if I felt the season was that good (because POY is for this year only) but it leads me to believe that the lower end valuation of T-Mac in 2003 is lower than the lower end valuation of Kobe in 2003. If that makes sense...
.

You get that T-Mac had back issues right?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by Djoker » Fri Jan 3, 2025 6:53 am

One_and_Done wrote:
Djoker wrote:
T-Mac will probably make my ballot and he definitely has a strong season but the argument for T-Mac > Kobe gives too much credit to T-Mac for putting up huge numbers on a bad team. Besides, he never had a season anywhere near this one so it feels a bit like a one-hit wonder. Not that I would penalize him for that if I felt the season was that good (because POY is for this year only) but it leads me to believe that the lower end valuation of T-Mac in 2003 is lower than the lower end valuation of Kobe in 2003. If that makes sense...
.

You get that T-Mac had back issues right?


Of course I do. T-Mac is one of my favorite players ever and the first jersey I ever bought.

However. my explanation in the previous post is why I see it the way I do.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by penbeast0 » Fri Jan 3, 2025 1:27 pm

The argument against Kobe (and/or Shaq) isn't just on court numbers. Both had strong numbers, but they were starting to tear the team apart with their egos plus the whole Kobe rape accusation was a big distracter. This team had talent, they underperformed it because of their stars focusing on their individual games rather than the team game as people tend to do in these bad situations. You can make this claim for TMac too of course, the Grant Hill injury left him trying to be Superman but he gets a bottom of the top 5 type mention for me because his numbers actually were spectacular.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jan 3, 2025 1:44 pm

penbeast0 wrote:The argument against Kobe (and/or Shaq) isn't just on court numbers. Both had strong numbers, but they were starting to tear the team apart with their egos plus the whole Kobe rape accusation was a big distracter. This team had talent, they underperformed it because of their stars focusing on their individual games rather than the team game as people tend to do in these bad situations. You can make this claim for TMac too of course, the Grant Hill injury left him trying to be Superman but he gets a bottom of the top 5 type mention for me because his numbers actually were spectacular.

The rape charge was the following year I believe.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by LA Bird » Fri Jan 3, 2025 2:19 pm

This is the one year where I would actually have Kobe over Shaq. With Shaq healing on company time, the difference in minutes grow to over 900 and the Lakers were better in Kobe only minutes than in Shaq only minutes for the only time ever. But considering LA's overall lacking success (9th in SRS, 2nd round elimination by widest margin against Spurs), I am not sure why voters are so quick to give either of them a top 3 spot in such a strong year. Will need to double check the candidates for this season but Kobe probably goes 5th at best for me after his shoulder injury.

Also, the rape case was during summer after the year was already over so it's not relevant here.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 2002-03 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by Homer38 » Fri Jan 3, 2025 2:38 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:The argument against Kobe (and/or Shaq) isn't just on court numbers. Both had strong numbers, but they were starting to tear the team apart with their egos plus the whole Kobe rape accusation was a big distracter. This team had talent, they underperformed it because of their stars focusing on their individual games rather than the team game as people tend to do in these bad situations. You can make this claim for TMac too of course, the Grant Hill injury left him trying to be Superman but he gets a bottom of the top 5 type mention for me because his numbers actually were spectacular.

The rape charge was the following year I believe.


true...It was in the 2004 season.

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