PG: Knicks lose to Thunder

[Gravy]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

[jvsimonetti0514]

I put the loss on Thibs. No reason for KAT not to get every touch in the post when Jalen Williams is guarding him. No reason for Brunson and Mikal to sit simultaneously while OG's hurt and Deuce isn't available. There's damn sure no reason to stop playing through the wings in the decisive quarter.

I expect Thibodeau to have smart adjustments in the rematch. But he blew this, and now I'm nervous about Chicago because OG's lumped up, the starters played 40 mins each last night, and Cam Payne's slumping so hard that I'm PRAYING for Tyler Kolek to get an opportunity.

I feel like putting a wing on Kat was trying to bait us into playing through the post and we did do it a decent amount. There was a bunch of times it ended up with Kat being triple teams and the refs swallowing their whistles. Kat is obviously great at doing it but his floor spacing is what really open things up for us. I’m sure they’re very happy that he didn’t take a single 3 last night. Thibs should try running him off some screens occasionally to get a different look.

I do agree that he mismanaged the rotations in the 4th and thought it was weird that he decided to go through Brunson down the stretch of a game he was struggling. I get that Brunson has been an elite closer for us and did well for the first couple minutes but made us stagnant. The calf isn’t stopping him from getting into the paint but it’s def doing something to affect his jumper.

Thibs has used the bench in the past when he had guys off there. Rose, IQ, Obi and IQ, Hart, Obi, Ihart were huge parts of our first 3 Thibs seasons. Not sure how he could be okay with iq and Brunson or deuce and Payne but not Kolek and Payne? Just don’t think we’ve got the guys. Especially without deuce and Mitch. Also probably should have kept Ajay Mitchell instead of trading him to the Thunder . Him being 6’5” would have really helped balance out the bench. It’s tough having all your best bench are 6’3”.

[Context]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

I get that...Do you get that no nba team should have a 6 man rotation?

[3toheadmelo]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

Finally someone with sense here. Are people really arguing to watch cam Payne, shamet, Kolek play more like it would’ve led to a win? All of those guys are significantly worse than our old bench that you just listed. You get him real talent and he’ll play them.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Woke up feeling pretty good. We were able to execute flawlessly for 3 quarters against the best team in the west. Sometimes you get out played by one of the best teams in the league and there’s nothing to be ashamed about. I think people are forgetting we’ve got these starters locked in for years and clearly we’ve got a starting line up of a title contender. Let
Me emphasize again, we’ve got a bunch of guys in their prime for a solid 5 year window that battled the top 3 team in the league.

Last night we looked like a team that made 2 major trades in the offseason. As of right now we’ve got 3 guys in our rotation that basically have one foot out of the nba. The guy that was the best off the bench last night, shamet signed an exhibit 9 deal. We are thin and even thinner without deuce and Mitch. Payne was originally signed to be the 10th man of this team. I’m just not surprised that their minutes were a disaster against the Thunder. It’s now up to the front office to fill out the rest of the roster.

Kolek looks like he’ll be a player and it’s up to the coaching staff to develop dadiet but there’s potential there. There’s a Mitch trade still to be made and maybe you can bring over Rokas. This isn’t a one year opportunity. We’ve got way to replenish our depth.

Kolek and Dadiet should be rotation players next season which will be huge. And maybe Hukporti too.

Their development is gonna be really important for us. We don’t have any picks in next years draft and wouldn’t be shocked if we end up doing swaps with our remaining picks. Not worried about Kolek and expect him to take cam Paynes role at some point.

Just not sure how long Dadiet is going to take. Even if I’ve been banging the 8 minutes a night for dadiet drum for weeks. I haven’t been watching westchester but read in the athletic that he looked overmatched in the g league showcase. Thibs and his staff helped developed a bunch of guys here. So I’ll trust them to tell us if/when dadiet is ready. If he can play next year it’s gonna be a massive deal cuz we need wing depth in the worst way.

[Strick]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

Finally someone with sense here. Are people really arguing to watch cam Payne, shamet, Kolek play more like it would’ve led to a win? All of those guys are significantly worse than our old bench that you just listed. You get him real talent and he’ll play them.

I think the biggest problem was when they played those guys they were all in together. Sure, the bench isn’t as good as it was in previous years, but why not stagger Payne and Shamet with a starter? It felt like we lost every single minute they were on the floor… badly too

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

The last 3 seasons our benches have been 30th, 30th and 23rd in MPG. Using the MPG of 1 or 2 guys doesn't really mean anything, he has gone into overdrive of playing starters since he got Brunson.


This team is on borrowed time.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Thibs overall has been a very good coach, but the way he runs the starters and refuses to develop a bench is a big flaw that can’t be ignored.

[3toheadmelo]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

Finally someone with sense here. Are people really arguing to watch cam Payne, shamet, Kolek play more like it would’ve led to a win? All of those guys are significantly worse than our old bench that you just listed. You get him real talent and he’ll play them.

I think the biggest problem was when they played those guys they were all in together. Sure, the bench isn’t as good as it was in previous years, but why not stagger Payne and Shamet with a starter? It felt like we lost every single minute they were on the floor… badly too

They were though. Looking at the play by play, im seeing Cam payne was out there with Josh Hart, KAT and Mikal.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

Finally someone with sense here. Are people really arguing to watch cam Payne, shamet, Kolek play more like it would’ve led to a win? All of those guys are significantly worse than our old bench that you just listed. You get him real talent and he’ll play them.

I’d love for Thibs to play his bench more but precious was hitting the side of the backboard on jumpers and Payne looked scared. Don’t even think he looked at the rim all night. Not really sure where thib’s supposed to go in those moments. Especially with deuce not available. Should he find time for dadiet and Kolek against lesser competition? Sure but I doubt they’ll saving last nights game. We looked like a team that made 3 major trades in the last year.

[Dunk93]

All these starter minutes are starting to catch up. Aches and pains players can normally play through will no longer be tolerable without taking some games off during the season vs minutes off per game. We're in player health debt. Concerning and risky.

[MrDollarBills]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

Finally someone with sense here. Are people really arguing to watch cam Payne, shamet, Kolek play more like it would’ve led to a win? All of those guys are significantly worse than our old bench that you just listed. You get him real talent and he’ll play them.

No one is arguing that Payne and Shamet are as good or better than the guys who came before them.

The problem is that playing 5 guys all 40+ minutes leads to exactly what we saw last night in the 4th against a great team with a coach that will lean into his roster to ensure that his best guys can finish the game without being gassed. Which they did.

People are fine with Thibs playing the starters basically the entire game. OK. But then they turn around and start trashing the players when they're on dead legs in the 4th and shots aren't falling and assignments get missed. You can't have it both ways, guys are not machines. At some point it catches up to them, and it did. Everyone was sucking wind while JB tried to hero ball them over the hump while OKCs guys were a step faster and fresher.

We have data that shows that the Knicks defense turns to sh*t in the 4th quarter. Is it because the players suck, or is it because they're all running on exhaust fumes by the time the 4th comes?

Something has gotta give here. Will it kill the team to shave off 2 to 3 minutes off of the starters' workload heading into the 4th by giving Precious, Shamet, and Payne more time? It's not about them, it's about ensuring that guys can actually function in the most critical portion of a game.

[3toheadmelo]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

Finally someone with sense here. Are people really arguing to watch cam Payne, shamet, Kolek play more like it would’ve led to a win? All of those guys are significantly worse than our old bench that you just listed. You get him real talent and he’ll play them.

No one is arguing that Payne and Shamet are as good or better than the guys who came before them.

The problem is that playing 5 guys all 40+ minutes leads to exactly what we saw last night in the 4th against a great team with a coach that will lean into his roster to ensure that his best guys can finish the game without being gassed. Which they did.

People are fine with Thibs playing the starters basically the entire game. OK. But then they turn around and start trashing the players when they're on dead legs in the 4th and shots aren't falling and assignments get missed. You can't have it both ways, guys are not machines. At some point it catches up to them, and it did. Everyone was sucking wind while JB tried to hero ball them over the hump while OKCs guys were a step faster and fresher.

We have data that shows that the Knicks defense turns to sh*t in the 4th quarter. Is it because the players suck, or is it because they're all running on exhaust fumes by the time the 4th comes?

Something has gotta give here. Will it kill the team to shave off 2 to 3 minutes off of the starters' workload heading into the 4th by giving Precious, Shamet, and Payne more time? It's not about them, it's about ensuring that guys can actually function in the most critical portion of a game.

I am pretty sure shaving off 2-3 mins isn't going to drastically change their performance. Brunson was just making bad decisions in the 4th. That's not due to fatigue. Missing wide open players to take bad shots isn't a fatigue problem. If anything that contradicts your argument cause a tired player would be much more passive.

[j4remi]

I feel like putting a wing on Kat was trying to bait us into playing through the post and we did do it a decent amount. There was a bunch of times it ended up with Kat being triple teams and the refs swallowing their whistles. Kat is obviously great at doing it but his floor spacing is what really open things up for us. I’m sure they’re very happy that he didn’t take a single 3 last night. Thibs should try running him off some screens occasionally to get a different look.

The thing is, his floor spacing isn't nearly as helpful when he's not pulling the primary rim protector away from the paint. Until he forces Hartenstein to switch over to him, that floor spacing doesn't make enough of a difference. You force that switch-up by beating your post-matchup. Granted, the refs really were terrible, but Towns was 7/13 and getting a shot at the rim on every touch. You live with that, especially against a team that doesn't shoot the three as well as most.

I do agree that he mismanaged the rotations in the 4th and thought it was weird that he decided to go through Brunson down the stretch of a game he was struggling. I get that Brunson has been an elite closer for us and did well for the first couple minutes but made us stagnant. The calf isn’t stopping him from getting into the paint but it’s def doing something to affect his jumper.

Yeah, Brunson wasn't himself and it showed in the jumper (and Free throws). Plus, it was taking too long to get into the sets. By the time Brunson or Josh Hart got to a pick and roll, the shot clock had bled out, so there wasn't time for plays to unfold. The first guy to receive a pass HAD to shoot, or the ball handler had to shoot it himself.

Thibs has used the bench in the past when he had guys off there. Rose, IQ, Obi and IQ, Hart, Obi, Ihart were huge parts of our first 3 Thibs seasons. Not sure how he could be okay with iq and Brunson or deuce and Payne but not Kolek and Payne? Just don’t think we’ve got the guys. Especially without deuce and Mitch. Also probably should have kept Ajay Mitchell instead of trading him to the Thunder . Him being 6’5” would have really helped balance out the bench. It’s tough having all your best bench are 6’3”.

I'd believe that Kolek/Deuce/Shamet/Precious can't work if Thibs put them out there and it didn't work. But I actually think that grouping compliments each other in a bunch of ways. Plus, it's not like staggering the substitutions can't happen. If Thibs wants to shorten it an 8-man rotation, for whatever reason, he can't justify playing two of those guys less than 10 minutes and NONE of those guys 15 minutes or more.

[Context]

Thibs overall has been a very good coach, but the way he runs the starters and refuses to develop a bench is a big flaw that can’t be ignored.

[3toheadmelo]

The game honestly went downhill when OG fked up his elbow

[Gravy]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

I get that...Do you get that no nba team should have a 6 man rotation?

In Thibs madman mind 6 was too many with how badly they played lol.

You led us to 9 wins which is nice, we now need a Steve Kerr type poster to get us to the next level of winning streaks

[TKKnicks1]

Guys gave 100% effort from the opening tip. We have seen this is not all always the case as our first quarters have gotten off to a pretty bad start. The starters know they are going to play big minutes so they pace themselves out of the gate. They knew they couldn't do this with this Thunder team and hence no juice left by the time the 4th started.

This should have been a game where Kolek and/or Ryan got to see some minutes. Excellent floor spacers and keeps the defense guessing. They knock down a few three pointers and it's a totally different game when the starters check back in. We saw the writing on the wall very early in the season with Thibs running 6 and 7 deep in November.

We are one injury away from being in the play-in IMO because we have no bench Thibs trusts to make up for loss of a starter. Thibs never learns.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Thibs plays his bench if they are GOOD. Minutes of previous bench players we used to have:

Immanuel Quickley - 29mpg
Divo - 20
Ihart - 20
Grimes - 20
"MJ" Burks - 25
Josh Hart - 30

The last 3 seasons our benches have been 30th, 30th and 23rd in MPG. Using the MPG of 1 or 2 guys doesn't really mean anything, he has gone into overdrive of playing starters since he got Brunson.


This team is on borrowed time.

Who should have Thibs played more of the last 2 seasons? Feel like it’s impossible to conceptualize where they fell league wide without listing the players they were available to play.

Last season can easily be explained by the freak injuries to 3 of our starters. Moving our bench guys into the starting line up. Grimes, Burks, Bojan they made moves to try to bolster but they were all terrible. Were you really trying to see more Burks? What about Jacob Toppin? Or was it Charlie Brown?

The year prior to that one, IQ played 28.9 mpg, Hart 30 mpg after the trade, Ihart 18.9 mpg, Obi 15.7. All seem like reasonable amount of minutes for bench players. Not really seeing an Issue. So who cares if they were ranked 30th in the league? Were we really missing out on giving minutes to washed Rose or Evan Fournier so we can have a better ranking compared to rest of the league?

I’d like for Kolek to get more minutes but are you running out line ups with Kolek, Deuce, Payne, and precious together? What sort of line up configuration are you surrounding Dadiet with to make him successful? Is getting him those minutes worth less time for the starters playing?

[Context]

No one is arguing that Payne and Shamet are as good or better than the guys who came before them.

The problem is that playing 5 guys all 40+ minutes leads to exactly what we saw last night in the 4th against a great team with a coach that will lean into his roster to ensure that his best guys can finish the game without being gassed. Which they did.

People are fine with Thibs playing the starters basically the entire game. OK. But then they turn around and start trashing the players when they're on dead legs in the 4th and shots aren't falling and assignments get missed. You can't have it both ways, guys are not machines. At some point it catches up to them, and it did. Everyone was sucking wind while JB tried to hero ball them over the hump while OKCs guys were a step faster and fresher.

We have data that shows that the Knicks defense turns to sh*t in the 4th quarter. Is it because the players suck, or is it because they're all running on exhaust fumes by the time the 4th comes?

Something has gotta give here. Will it kill the team to shave off 2 to 3 minutes off of the starters' workload heading into the 4th by giving Precious, Shamet, and Payne more time? It's not about them, it's about ensuring that guys can actually function in the most critical portion of a game.

This is one of the best summaries on this topic Dollar. This is my position on this written out perfectly.