PG: Knicks lose to Thunder

[JayTWill]

OKC's bench tonight while missing 2 key rotation players in Holmgren and Caruso

Isaiah Joe - 2020 49th pick (Waived by the Sixers after his 2nd year)
Kenrich Williams - Undrafted (Picked up by OKC at almost 26 years old)
Aaron Wiggins - 2021 55th pick
Jaylin Williams - 2022 34th pick
Ajay Mitchell - 2024 38th pick (Traded from the Knicks)

Also starting
Lu Dort - Undrafted

They also play there 13-15 guys when short-handed.

I don't know if any of these guys ever crack Thibs' rotation.

Knicks have always sucked at scouting while OKC has always been excellent

That's more than scouting. That's scouting and development. They identify the guys that they believe will fit their system and invest time in them on and off the court. Not all of their players hit the ground running. They have had 2 rookies in the rotation this year. Ajay Mitchell has performed much better than Dillon Jones but both of them have been in the rotation when shorthanded. Jones hasn't impressed me when I have watched him but if he became a decent end of bench player down the line I can't be shocked when they have put time into him.

They are still putting time into Dieng who we traded to them a few years back even though he doesn't look like a rotational player and somehow they are doing this while maintaining one of the best records in the league. Last week the Thunder were missing Holmgren, Dort, Caruso, and Wallace and they still went 10 deep with no one playing crazy minutes despite their end of bench guys not being very good.

Even their current coach of the year developed as a coach with their G-League team for 5 years. They invest time. If we switched rosters Pacome would definitely get more of an opportunity along with Huk and possibly Sims. I doubt they would have drafted Kolek since they seem to like length but if they did he would probably have gotten more run there too. Thibs would have definitely shortened their rotation though. I can't see him investing time in developing and coaching that many young players. Half their roster and picks might be in Miami right now with Jimmy in a Thunder uniform if Thibs had his way

[thebuzzardman]

OKC's bench tonight while missing 2 key rotation players in Holmgren and Caruso

Isaiah Joe - 2020 49th pick (Waived by the Sixers after his 2nd year)
Kenrich Williams - Undrafted (Picked up by OKC at almost 26 years old)
Aaron Wiggins - 2021 55th pick
Jaylin Williams - 2022 34th pick
Ajay Mitchell - 2024 38th pick (Traded from the Knicks)

Also starting
Lu Dort - Undrafted

They also play there 13-15 guys when short-handed.

I don't know if any of these guys ever crack Thibs' rotation.

Knicks have always sucked at scouting while OKC has always been excellent

That's more than scouting. That's scouting and development. They identify the guys that they believe will fit their system and invest time in them on and off the court. Not all of their players hit the ground running. They have had 2 rookies in the rotation this year. Ajay Mitchell has performed much better than Dillon Jones but both of them have been in the rotation when shorthanded. Jones hasn't impressed me when I have watched him but if he became a decent end of bench player down the line I can't be shocked when they have put time into him.

They are still putting time into Dieng who we traded to them a few years back even though he doesn't look like a rotational player and somehow they are doing this while maintaining one of the best records in the league. Last week the Thunder were missing Holmgren, Dort, Caruso, and Wallace and they still went 10 deep with no one playing crazy minutes despite their end of bench guys not being very good.

Even their current coach of the year developed as a coach with their G-League team for 5 years. They invest time. If we switched rosters Pacome would definitely get more of an opportunity along with Huk and possibly Sims. I doubt they would have drafted Kolek since they seem to like length but if they did he would probably have gotten more run there too. Thibs would have definitely shortened their rotation though. I can't see him investing time in developing and coaching that many young players. Half their roster and picks might be in Miami right now with Jimmy in a Thunder uniform if Thibs had his way

The Knicks developed players. They traded them for 3/5ths of this starting 5

[ctorres]

Dadiet a wasted pick.

I can't believe the Knicks burned a pick on a player that might develop. In 4 years. And a roster spot.

Dadiet won't even be 21 years old until his 3rd season.

We can only hope he is learning from OG, Mikal, and Josh on how to develop into one day being one of the best wings in the NBA.

Otherwise, we are better off just trading Dadiet for another guy who could play 24+ mpg like McBride.

McBride seems to be the only guy who Thibs wholeheartedly trusts off the bench.

I assume Achiuwa only played 8 minutes because the Thunder were not a good match up for him.

We are in win now mode. If Thibs feels we only have 6 guys who are consistently playable, then we have to improve the bench.

[Gravy]

That was the best NBA game of the season I've watched so far. Knicks looked like contenders against a top team on the road just could not hold on at the end. JB was rough but shout out to him for playing if he's injured, he is usually great when healthy. Leon needs to get some more bench depth, 5 points from the bench is pathetic. Get better Deuce and Mitch.

No, you can't appreciate Brunson if he played through being hurt. You have to pile on saying he sucked. This is the way.

Brunson should have sat out the game and had Kolek start then we would have won with Dadiet and Hukporti 30+ minutes each.

Its like we didnt just do all this with Frank, Obi, Knox, Reddish, Dotson, Iggy Brazzers etc...

[thebuzzardman]

Dadiet a wasted pick.

I can't believe the Knicks burned a pick on a player that might develop. In 4 years. And a roster spot.

Dadiet won't even be 21 years old until his 3rd season.

We can only hope he is learning from OG, Mikal, and Josh on how to develop into one day being one of the best wings in the NBA.

Otherwise, we are better off just trading Dadiet for another guy who could play 24+ mpg like McBride.

McBride seems to be the only guy who Thibs wholeheartedly trusts off the bench.

I assume Achiuwa only played 8 minutes because the Thunder were not a good match up for him.

We are in win now mode. If Thibs feels we only have 6 guys who are consistently playable, then we have to improve the bench.

Mighty extravagant behavior for a team that needs a bench now and next year.

Maybe Dadiet can get some minutes after KAT and Brunson have aged out.

Knicks should be looking to trade him if anyone is interested

[Guano]

That's what I said too. OG was dominating that game. There was a play after that where he looked over his shoulder on a break and it was enough to break up the play on what should have been a transition bucket.

We need to get em at our house.

I also think the biggest issue with that game was Brunson just isn't healthy. And if we ha e a healthy Brunson we win.

And man, how we played in the 2nd was some of the best hoops I've ever seek a knocks team play. It was high art. I just can't be down on this team. Sucks we lost but we got a glimpse of the ethereal.

We played really well. This Thunder team is playing like an all time great team per SRS and we were right there. You're right that JB couldn't do his usual thing down the stretch. He wasn't right. We need to feed the KAT in those situations but he wasn't right.

Yeah, like Gully mentioned, we aren't in our final form. And what's dope is this core is locked in for a few years. They're going to learn how to move when one is hot or not and to attack match ups better. And Brunson is a proven winner. Last night was an outlier. Its not something I'm worried about moving forward.

[ctorres]

Maybe Dadiet can get some minutes after KAT and Brunson have aged out.

I'm giving KAT, Brunson, and our entire starting lineup 4.5 years from now until they age out

That would be the end of the 2028-29 season

If they win one championship before then, the aging out process will start faster IMO

[Guano]

That's what I said too. OG was dominating that game. There was a play after that where he looked over his shoulder on a break and it was enough to break up the play on what should have been a transition bucket.

We need to get em at our house.

I also think the biggest issue with that game was Brunson just isn't healthy. And if we ha e a healthy Brunson we win.

And man, how we played in the 2nd was some of the best hoops I've ever seek a knocks team play. It was high art. I just can't be down on this team. Sucks we lost but we got a glimpse of the ethereal.

Yeah that 2nd quarter told me by no uncertain terms we are contending team. Sure have things we need to work on but our starting five had the best defense in the league the ropes.

Yeah, that 2nd quarter we had them on the ropes in their building. Looked like a team that could beat anyone. And they haven't played together for very long. They're going to gain more consistency with time, too. I'm v optimistic about this squad.

[HerSports85]

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[ctorres]

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God we need Mitch back

Achiuwa does everything he can, but clearly Thibs won't play him in certain situations

[Fat Kat]

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[MrDollarBills]

I mean wouldn’t you say that Deuce McBride and Mitchell Robinson are our best bench players and neither of them played. How many teams benches look good without their two best players?

Its kinda obvious if you breakdown the game properly that this was the type of game where missing some depth killed us.

We have depth. Thibs refuses to use it.

Right.

Go take a look at every roster around the league. There’s always considerable drop off once you get past your top 7 guys. Yet OKC and Cleveland use their bench to keep their guys minutes in a reasonable range. And they win consistently. I don't think the talent on those teams are substantially better than what this team has.

You aren't gonna win every minute, quarter, or every possession of a game. But the onus is on the coaching staff to utilize the players available to ensure that the starters are in a position to succeed in the 4th.

I hate to keep bringing him up, but go take a look at what Kenny Atkinson is working with on his roster in CLE outside of his top 6. Those dudes aren't world beaters at all, but he makes do with who he has and develops guys into roles he needs them for. Thibs refuses to do it and it's gonna destroy this team's aspirations of a championship. If we lose a few possessions because Sims and Kolek f*cks up, so be it, but I'd take that if it gives KAT and Brunson at least 2 to 3 more minutes of rest so that they can function in the 4th.

I'm sorry, if you think that having the entire core group leading the NBA in minutes like this is normal, you are mistaken. There were folks in the game thread sh*tting on OG for messing up late in the game when he was not only gassed but probably playing through injury after that fall where he didn't even come out of the game.

We are gonna lose a critical piece at this rate. I don't understand what Thibs is doing but he's not concerned about the end goal, that is clear.

[Context]

Read on Twitter

Sometimes I think the NBA puts out theme that the ref follows...

[JayTWill]

Knicks have always sucked at scouting while OKC has always been excellent

That's more than scouting. That's scouting and development. They identify the guys that they believe will fit their system and invest time in them on and off the court. Not all of their players hit the ground running. They have had 2 rookies in the rotation this year. Ajay Mitchell has performed much better than Dillon Jones but both of them have been in the rotation when shorthanded. Jones hasn't impressed me when I have watched him but if he became a decent end of bench player down the line I can't be shocked when they have put time into him.

They are still putting time into Dieng who we traded to them a few years back even though he doesn't look like a rotational player and somehow they are doing this while maintaining one of the best records in the league. Last week the Thunder were missing Holmgren, Dort, Caruso, and Wallace and they still went 10 deep with no one playing crazy minutes despite their end of bench guys not being very good.

Even their current coach of the year developed as a coach with their G-League team for 5 years. They invest time. If we switched rosters Pacome would definitely get more of an opportunity along with Huk and possibly Sims. I doubt they would have drafted Kolek since they seem to like length but if they did he would probably have gotten more run there too. Thibs would have definitely shortened their rotation though. I can't see him investing time in developing and coaching that many young players. Half their roster and picks might be in Miami right now with Jimmy in a Thunder uniform if Thibs had his way

The Knicks developed players. They traded them for 3/5ths of this starting 5

2/5ths or 3/5ths? I'm not sure who the Knicks developed that was traded for Mikal and Hart. I assume you are not talking about Reddish for Hart so maybe you are talking about Grimes for Bogey and then Bogey + picks for Mikal. Grimes feels more like the team giving up on the development of a player and selling low. RJ was the number 3 pick and the way he was developed here is still highly questionable. I'm not sure if developing him into a downhill attacker with poor court vision, no defense and limited shooting is what I hoped for from the #3 pick.

Randle is always going to be a controversial subject. Taking a more efficient 3rd big/spot starter in NO/LA and empowering him to be a less efficient higher usage top 1/2 option that plays no defense with a poor attitude wasn't the greatest development imo but he did pick up more awards in New York so that did increase his profile. I'm not sure if there was a huge market for KAT on his contract and his reputation anyway. Maybe you are talking about Donte who had the same percentages as he had with the Warriors here.

IQ was probably the best story of development and he was developed in the most typical Thibs way as a small scoring guard with questionable point guard skills but his defense was pretty good under Thibs for the most part. A ton of picks, the potential of youth and some development went into creating this roster.

Yesterday's game was a reflection of two teams with two different approaches. One team was willing to play 10 guys in the first half despite some of their limitations and fall behind with no one playing more than 17 minutes. The other team was playing their best 5 as much as possible trying to win every minute of the game. One team seems to have a more long term approach at different levels. One has a more short term approach.

[Gravy]

OKC's bench tonight while missing 2 key rotation players in Holmgren and Caruso

Isaiah Joe - 2020 49th pick (Waived by the Sixers after his 2nd year)
Kenrich Williams - Undrafted (Picked up by OKC at almost 26 years old)
Aaron Wiggins - 2021 55th pick
Jaylin Williams - 2022 34th pick
Ajay Mitchell - 2024 38th pick (Traded from the Knicks)

Also starting
Lu Dort - Undrafted

They also play there 13-15 guys when short-handed.

I don't know if any of these guys ever crack Thibs' rotation.

Knicks have always sucked at scouting while OKC has always been excellent

That's more than scouting. That's scouting and development. They identify the guys that they believe will fit their system and invest time in them on and off the court. Not all of their players hit the ground running. They have had 2 rookies in the rotation this year. Ajay Mitchell has performed much better than Dillon Jones but both of them have been in the rotation when shorthanded. Jones hasn't impressed me when I have watched him but if he became a decent end of bench player down the line I can't be shocked when they have put time into him.

They are still putting time into Dieng who we traded to them a few years back even though he doesn't look like a rotational player and somehow they are doing this while maintaining one of the best records in the league. Last week the Thunder were missing Holmgren, Dort, Caruso, and Wallace and they still went 10 deep with no one playing crazy minutes despite their end of bench guys not being very good.

Even their current coach of the year developed as a coach with their G-League team for 5 years. They invest time. If we switched rosters Pacome would definitely get more of an opportunity along with Huk and possibly Sims. I doubt they would have drafted Kolek since they seem to like length but if they did he would probably have gotten more run there too. Thibs would have definitely shortened their rotation though. I can't see him investing time in developing and coaching that many young players. Half their roster and picks might be in Miami right now with Jimmy in a Thunder uniform if Thibs had his way

Knicks have some recent history with the Thunder. They drafted IQ for us in exchange for Aleksej Pokuševski. He is currently in Europe. They drafted Miles Mcbride for us in exchange for Jeremiah Robinson-Earl who they traded for two 2nd round picks. We did well in developing those two picks we got.

[MrDollarBills]

You’re the one demanding changes to the rotations. I’d like to know what changes you’d make. Not really sure how you can say it’s an excuse to ask you who should play instead and what line ups they should play in.

How many wins from last season were you willing to sacrifice to see more of Burks and Bojan? Just to remind you that Burks shot 30% from the field and 30% from 3. Bojan had a negative 14 net rating. I do agree that shake shouldve been given a shot but if he was as bad as the other two would it be worth it to keep trotting him out there? There was only a 4 game difference between being the second seed or the 8th seed. Idk if last season would be remembered as fondly if we were a playin team that got crushed in the first or second round.

I would have been playing Kolek and Pacome against the teams who put G-leaguers on the floor against us, and that would have started weeks ago when we were blowing teams out. I wouldnt do the platoon change lineups Tom does, I'd go with Kolek on the floor only when Mikal and OG are there with him, and Pacome would be the release valve to get one of the 3 wings more rest. The Thunder are the second best team in the league, they have been playing a second round pick 16mpg from essentially the start of the season, he was -4 last night, did that kill them? Jaylin Williams was -10 last night, they played him regardless. You're not going to win every minute of every game.

I'm willing to sacrifice regular season wins as long as the team gets to the playoffs healthy, which they have not done once under Tom. Burks also shot 50% from the field and 43% from three in 20mpg against the Pacers, he averaged 15ppg in that series but apparently, he could give us nothing after the trade deadline. There are only 13 teams in the NBA that have a positive net rating with their benches, and shockingly we are one of them, the problem is ours just doesn't play enough.






415 minutes is completely hilarious for a bench that actually wins the minutes they're on the floor, albeit they can't score, but you can't score when they're out there.

The Thunder are the perfect counter example. In addition to the guys you mentioned, Aaron Wiggins buried us. Tom builds the main guys up as well as anyone but their deep bench guys aren't any better than ours. They're just prepared.

Exactly. No team in the league is 10-12 deep. But you work with who you have and build them up into roles that they can succeed in.

[KnixinSix]

I also think the biggest issue with that game was Brunson just isn't healthy. And if we ha e a healthy Brunson we win.

And man, how we played in the 2nd was some of the best hoops I've ever seek a knocks team play. It was high art. I just can't be down on this team. Sucks we lost but we got a glimpse of the ethereal.

Yeah that 2nd quarter told me by no uncertain terms we are contending team. Sure have things we need to work on but our starting five had the best defense in the league the ropes.

Yeah, that 2nd quarter we had them on the ropes in their building. Looked like a team that could beat anyone. And they haven't played together for very long. They're going to gain more consistency with time, too. I'm v optimistic about this squad.

Think about this...
The team is not hitting nearly as well from 3 like they were before the 9 game winning streak. The reason we were on the streak is the defense scheme finally gelled at least moreso than early in the season. Imagine how good we will look when the 3 ball comes back. There was a time we were barraging other teams with the 3 ball. If that comes back and then Mitch or another rim protecting 5, this team should be able to beat ANYONE.

[KnixinSix]

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God we need Mitch back

Achiuwa does everything he can, but clearly Thibs won't play him in certain situations

Rose is probably not blind to this. They are very likely going to make a move for someone who can play major minutes that Thibs would trust.

Kolek and Dadiet and 2- 2nd rd picks for Kessler

Mitch Robinson and HukPorti and 1st RP for Isaiah Stewart

Kessler and Isaiah Stewart both get 20+ minutes on a Thibs team.

[jvsimonetti0514]

I think the biggest problem was when they played those guys they were all in together. Sure, the bench isn’t as good as it was in previous years, but why not stagger Payne and Shamet with a starter? It felt like we lost every single minute they were on the floor… badly too

They were though. Looking at the play by play, im seeing Cam payne was out there with Josh Hart, KAT and Mikal.

Something that has bugged me about Thibs since he got here, and still goes on now, is the nature of his rotations. Even more than the bench minutes.

He plays the sh*t out of the starters. That's a given.
The bench is thin this year, that's a given. Yeah, I get maybe not as bad as Thib's minutes distribution, but it's still pretty iffy.

But VERY often, he'll make a weird substitution that just isn't good. Seems like once a game and it seems like it was more often, but still.
Like, "I think I'll put Sims and Precious out there together but leave Hart in", leaving the least reliable shooting wing out there with the worst two floor spacers. Etc.

Or like yesterday, combining Shamet and Payne together in a tough game where he was already deeply committed to playing the starters 47 minutes each (lol) but yet somehow found time for two scrubs together at a critical juncture. Like, should have done that early 3rd if it was for "rest".

Weirdly, he seems to lack some kind of feel or on the fly adjustment in this area.

This is besides overplaying the starters.
Maybe it's part of it. Once he rigidly trusts certain guys and not others he mentally boxes himself in.
Something like that.

You’re asking the right question here IMO. This is why I kinda sea lion in the thread asking questions about who should play instead cuz it’s easy to say the starters play too many minutes.

The real question is what sort of line up can you have out there that minimizes the damage of playing all these guys with one foot out of the league. Especially when 2 of them were awful.

Can we really only have one of them out there at a time? Not even sure how you can handle manage rotations like that or give everyone a breather doing that. Or do you send Brunson and Mikal to the bench in the 3rd and how does affect that quarter? It’s possible that run that happened at the start of the 4th happens in the 3rd but brunson and Mikal would have their rest and they’d be able to make up ground. Which is all stuff we can debate cuz I’m not really sure when’s the best time to get them their rest.

I’m not even sure if was Payne’s and Shamet fault either. Thunder went really small there and got towns in a bunch of actions and made him guard in space and carved them up. Can’t really go back to precious in that spot cuz I don’t a line up with hart and OG as primary scorers can work. Maybe Thibs should have shadowed Mikal’s minutes with SGA’s?

[ctorres]

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God we need Mitch back

Achiuwa does everything he can, but clearly Thibs won't play him in certain situations

Rose is probably not blind to this. They are very likely going to make a move for someone who can play major minutes that Thibs would trust.

Kolek and Dadiet and 2- 2nd rd picks for Kessler

Mitch Robinson and HukPorti and 1st RP for Isaiah Stewart

Kessler and Isaiah Stewart both get 20+ minutes on a Thibs team.

I think Stewart plays C exclusively with the Pistons

I'm going through the Pistons' most recent box score. Duren is the starting C, Stewart is the back up, and Paul Reed is the 3rd string C

Stewart's numbers have regressed this season too

If the Knicks had to trade Mitch, I think it will be for a big wing like Rui Hachimura