Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

[BlacJacMac]

Not legal now, but will be by trade deadline.

NAW + DET FRP for Andrew Nembhard.

Nembhard's extension only kicks in next year (and it doesn't seem to be a poison pill), and his salary is probably similar to NAW's next contract.

The 1st is there for the risk that NAW doesn't re-sign with IND when Nembhard is locked for 3 more years.

Both players are in the same range value-wise, but the fit is probably better with each other team.

MIN get a young secondary playmaker who can play next to ANT.

IND get a 40% 3&D connector, perfect to play with Haliburton.

I think that's the definition of a poison pill...

They declined his Team Option for 25-26 in favor of the max extension allowed (3 years though, instead of 4). That would mean he would be about 2M outgoing for the Pacers, but like 19M coming into his new team.

[shrink]

Would y’all trade Julius and Donte for Jimmy? Just curious

Would you trade KAT for Jimmy?

We can’t trade for Jimmy because we’re above the aprons, which means we can’t aggregate salaries, and can’t take back more salary than we send out, so it’s illegal. But even if we could, General Soreness threw the entire team under the bus publicly when Thibs refused to honor his trade request, with a staged incident and his girlfriend Rachel Nichols back at his house after the game to broadcast it. He burned any bridges to be back in Minnesota, and he has already lit the match in Miami.

[shrink]

If Randle is traded, I think the best fitting criteria would be

1. #2 scorer. Ant needs help with double teams. Rudy can’t score if people don’t pass to him. Jaden is inconsistent scorer
2. Consolidated talent. We have eight rotation players, and want minutes for Dillingham and Minott
3. Either a PG or a big. We have enough SG’s that we try to shove into different positions
4. Expiring or short term money. Must be $33 mil or less for CBA reasons
5. Some rebounding help for Rudy would be nice. I love Jaden, but I don’t think he’s a rebounder.

So it looks to me that we need a Julius Randle that isn’t Julius Randle. Maybe Julius Randle can be that guy.

1. Naz Reid

2. Trade NAW away, keep Naz, you already move Randle, now you have 6 guys plus who you bring in. Development also takes time. You don’t need Dilly playing this year if you bring in someone who can hold things down with Mike. Dilly can still grow and develop in the G and gym where he belongs.

3. We need a PG and a C, but that doesn’t mean we cannot make a second move if a great opportunity comes up in a first move. If we could get a Norman Powell and JV for Randle and then move Jovic and NAW for a PG and pick that would work quite well. It just depends on the market for Randle.

4. 100%.

5. Jaden is up to 4.7 rebounds per game. That number will go up based on what I am seeing. Might not happen tomorrow, but Jaden is improving.

I appreciate the confidence, but Naz Reid as the second option on a contender seems like a stretch to me. Randle is averaging 20 a game against mostly starters, Naz is averaging 12 (albeit, with less minutes), more against bench units, and with the help of DDV and NAW.

I also have a lot less confidence that Jaden can suddenly rebound like a contender’s PF, since he’s still only maybe 185, and we need him guarding threats on the perimeter. Jaden is up to 4.7 RPG this year from a career average of 3.8. Randle is at 7.0 and has a career average of 9.2.

[shrink]

Speaking of Jimmy, I posted this on the General Board, and people seem to like it. It might give someone here a chuckle.

He should legally add “Saga” to his last name, like “Warriors acquire Jimmy Butler Saga.”

[minimus]

Speaking of Jimmy, I posted this on the General Board, and people seem to like it. It might give someone here a chuckle.

He should legally add “Saga” to his last name, like “Warriors acquire Jimmy Butler Saga.”

Soap Drama

[Kineto]

Not legal now, but will be by trade deadline.

NAW + DET FRP for Andrew Nembhard.

Nembhard's extension only kicks in next year (and it doesn't seem to be a poison pill), and his salary is probably similar to NAW's next contract.

The 1st is there for the risk that NAW doesn't re-sign with IND when Nembhard is locked for 3 more years.

Both players are in the same range value-wise, but the fit is probably better with each other team.

MIN get a young secondary playmaker who can play next to ANT.

IND get a 40% 3&D connector, perfect to play with Haliburton.

I think that's the definition of a poison pill...

They declined his Team Option for 25-26 in favor of the max extension allowed (3 years though, instead of 4). That would mean he would be about 2M outgoing for the Pacers, but like 19M coming into his new team.

This "poison pill" mechanism is not for all contract if i understand correctly, only 1st round rookie contract.
And Nembhard is a 2nd round pick, so his 2M salary for this year can be traded without taking into account is next extension.

[BlacJacMac]

Not legal now, but will be by trade deadline.

NAW + DET FRP for Andrew Nembhard.

Nembhard's extension only kicks in next year (and it doesn't seem to be a poison pill), and his salary is probably similar to NAW's next contract.

The 1st is there for the risk that NAW doesn't re-sign with IND when Nembhard is locked for 3 more years.

Both players are in the same range value-wise, but the fit is probably better with each other team.

MIN get a young secondary playmaker who can play next to ANT.

IND get a 40% 3&D connector, perfect to play with Haliburton.

I think that's the definition of a poison pill...

They declined his Team Option for 25-26 in favor of the max extension allowed (3 years though, instead of 4). That would mean he would be about 2M outgoing for the Pacers, but like 19M coming into his new team.

This "poison pill" mechanism is not for all contract if i understand correctly, only 1st round rookie contract.
And Nembhard is a 2nd round pick, so his 2M salary for this year can be traded without taking into account is next extension.

That's just one example of a poison pill.

The “poison pill provision” arises if a team extends a player’s rookie contract, then trades him before the extension officially takes effect. It’s a rare situation, but it features its own set of rules, since extensions following rookie contracts often create a large gap between a player’s current and future salaries.

For salary-matching purposes, if a player is traded between the time his rookie contract is extended and the following July 1 (when that extension takes effect), the player’s incoming value for the receiving team is the average of his current-year salary and the annual salary in each year of his extension. His current team, on the other hand, simply treats his current-year salary as the outgoing figure for matching purposes.

Nembhard signed a 4 year contract as a rookie, so this extension of that contract counts as a "poison pill".

[Norseman79]

I'm telling you, there are three names that I would consider if there's any chance of making a run this year that are likely attainable. People hate them, I don't really care. D. Murray, J. Poole or A. Simons. And the only chance you have is if you actually hit on them and they unlock in Finch's system next to Edwards. Murray is the best all around, but hasn't been same since injury, always a risk and going to be 29. My preference is Simons, but Poole may be easier. Poole is a bit more erratic. I think Simons is the best shooter. With any of the above, I would try to bring Detroit or Charlotte in as a third team to somehow get Duren or Williams. Also, I think you have to move off of NAW or DD, and I think NAW is the one to go. Next off-season you trade Rudy and Mike (retires) for cap space.

PG - Simons, Conley, Dillingham
SG - Edwards, DD
SF - McDaniels, Minott
PF - Reid, Miller
C. - Gobert, Duren, Garza

[winforlose]

If Randle is traded, I think the best fitting criteria would be

1. #2 scorer. Ant needs help with double teams. Rudy can’t score if people don’t pass to him. Jaden is inconsistent scorer
2. Consolidated talent. We have eight rotation players, and want minutes for Dillingham and Minott
3. Either a PG or a big. We have enough SG’s that we try to shove into different positions
4. Expiring or short term money. Must be $33 mil or less for CBA reasons
5. Some rebounding help for Rudy would be nice. I love Jaden, but I don’t think he’s a rebounder.

So it looks to me that we need a Julius Randle that isn’t Julius Randle. Maybe Julius Randle can be that guy.

1. Naz Reid

2. Trade NAW away, keep Naz, you already move Randle, now you have 6 guys plus who you bring in. Development also takes time. You don’t need Dilly playing this year if you bring in someone who can hold things down with Mike. Dilly can still grow and develop in the G and gym where he belongs.

3. We need a PG and a C, but that doesn’t mean we cannot make a second move if a great opportunity comes up in a first move. If we could get a Norman Powell and JV for Randle and then move Jovic and NAW for a PG and pick that would work quite well. It just depends on the market for Randle.

4. 100%.

5. Jaden is up to 4.7 rebounds per game. That number will go up based on what I am seeing. Might not happen tomorrow, but Jaden is improving.

I appreciate the confidence, but Naz Reid as the second option on a contender seems like a stretch to me. Randle is averaging 20 a game against mostly starters, Naz is averaging 12 (albeit, with less minutes), more against bench units, and with the help of DDV and NAW.

I also have a lot less confidence that Jaden can suddenly rebound like a contender’s PF, since he’s still only maybe 185, and we need him guarding threats on the perimeter. Jaden is up to 4.7 RPG this year from a career average of 3.8. Randle is at 7.0 and has a career average of 9.2.

Well it helps that Jaden is a SF guarding Wings whereas Randle is PF guarding bigs. It is also true that people’s rebounding numbers are depressed playing with Rudy. Look at Karl last year. Also something I don’t like about the way rebounds are recorded is a player can tip/push the ball to another and the one who catches it gets the board instead of the one who got it to a teammate. It should be .5 like a half sack. If you didn’t grab the board alone, you shouldn’t get the credit alone.

Naz always plays better with 30+ minutes. I did the math for the board a year or two ago. Go to his BB ref page and filter for MPG. I am not talking about the standard expected numbers bumps, I am talking about the kind that prove Naz is a rhythm player and finds it more easily playing after warmups, and playing more consistent minutes with the same unit.

[shrink]

Not legal now, but will be by trade deadline.

NAW + DET FRP for Andrew Nembhard.

Nembhard's extension only kicks in next year (and it doesn't seem to be a poison pill), and his salary is probably similar to NAW's next contract.

The 1st is there for the risk that NAW doesn't re-sign with IND when Nembhard is locked for 3 more years.

Both players are in the same range value-wise, but the fit is probably better with each other team.

MIN get a young secondary playmaker who can play next to ANT.

IND get a 40% 3&D connector, perfect to play with Haliburton.

I think that's the definition of a poison pill...

They declined his Team Option for 25-26 in favor of the max extension allowed (3 years though, instead of 4). That would mean he would be about 2M outgoing for the Pacers, but like 19M coming into his new team.

This "poison pill" mechanism is not for all contract if i understand correctly, only 1st round rookie contract.
And Nembhard is a 2nd round pick, so his 2M salary for this year can be traded without taking into account is next extension.

I have to admit that I had to run it through the Spotrac Trade Checker, and that checker says the trade is legal.

Maybe when Larry Coon says “rookie contract,” he means “rookie scale contract,” not whatever contract a player had as a rookie. Not great writing on his part there.

If you want to confirm, you can ask the question on the RealGM CBA board, and DBoy or someone else will answer it.

[BlacJacMac]

If it’s a legal trade, it’s not a bad one at all for us.

[Kineto]

If it’s a legal trade, it’s not a bad one at all for us.

From the CBA FAQ :

"Poison Pill" isn't a defined term in the CBA, but there are a couple situations that are commonly referred to as a poison pill [...]
The first is when a team extends a first round draft pick's rookie scale contract (see question number 58) and then trades the player between the date the extension is signed and the date it takes effect.
[...]
The Gilbert Arenas provision (see question number 43) also has been described as containing a poison pill. [...]

Nembhard was a second round pick and his extension kick after the 3rd year of his rookie contract (so probably with full bird right) , and it's doesn't seems to fit with the 2 "poison pill" case describe above.

[Note30]

I'm telling you, there are three names that I would consider if there's any chance of making a run this year that are likely attainable. People hate them, I don't really care. D. Murray, J. Poole or A. Simons. And the only chance you have is if you actually hit on them and they unlock in Finch's system next to Edwards. Murray is the best all around, but hasn't been same since injury, always a risk and going to be 29. My preference is Simons, but Poole may be easier. Poole is a bit more erratic. I think Simons is the best shooter. With any of the above, I would try to bring Detroit or Charlotte in as a third team to somehow get Duren or Williams. Also, I think you have to move off of NAW or DD, and I think NAW is the one to go. Next off-season you trade Rudy and Mike (retires) for cap space.

PG - Simons, Conley, Dillingham
SG - Edwards, DD
SF - McDaniels, Minott
PF - Reid, Miller
C. - Gobert, Duren, Garza

Poole is a sure way to take this team from above .500 to 10 wins a year

[Norseman79]

I'm telling you, there are three names that I would consider if there's any chance of making a run this year that are likely attainable. People hate them, I don't really care. D. Murray, J. Poole or A. Simons. And the only chance you have is if you actually hit on them and they unlock in Finch's system next to Edwards. Murray is the best all around, but hasn't been same since injury, always a risk and going to be 29. My preference is Simons, but Poole may be easier. Poole is a bit more erratic. I think Simons is the best shooter. With any of the above, I would try to bring Detroit or Charlotte in as a third team to somehow get Duren or Williams. Also, I think you have to move off of NAW or DD, and I think NAW is the one to go. Next off-season you trade Rudy and Mike (retires) for cap space.

PG - Simons, Conley, Dillingham
SG - Edwards, DD
SF - McDaniels, Minott
PF - Reid, Miller
C. - Gobert, Duren, Garza

Poole is a sure way to take this team from above .500 to 10 wins a year

I disagree. He would likely be the second or third option here. Which is when he thrives. Again though, he would probably be my third choice of the three I mentioned.

[minimus]

Why even consider a low IQ inefficient scorer who is basically an undersized SG with no defense?

[Norseman79]

Why even consider a low IQ inefficient scorer who is basically an undersized SG with no defense?

Because you're hoping you get the Golden State version

[younggunsmn]

Why even consider a low IQ inefficient scorer who is basically an undersized SG with no defense?

Because you're hoping you get the Golden State version

Oh the version they attached a 1st round pick to get out of his contract.
Jordan Poole sucks, he's a more highly paid and less efficient version of Malik Beasley.

Every month or two he will have a game that makes you wonder if more is there, and then he sucks again for another month.

Simons sucks defensively, is mediocre offensively, and is overpaid.

[Norseman79]

Why even consider a low IQ inefficient scorer who is basically an undersized SG with no defense?

Because you're hoping you get the Golden State version

Oh the version they attached a 1st round pick to get out of his contract.
Jordan Poole sucks, he's a more highly paid and less efficient version of Malik Beasley.

Every month or two he will have a game that makes you wonder if more is there, and then he sucks again for another month.

Simons sucks defensively, is mediocre offensively, and is overpaid.

Don't care about defense. We need perimeter playmaking and scoring from our PG position. Any better pgs available? By the way, ever considered the problems they might have could be tied to Washington and Portland roster?

It doesn't matter, we aren't going to do anything. We are dead in the water

[cmoss84]

CHI IN: Jimmy B
MIA IN: Randle and Ball
UTA IN: Dosunmu, JJJ, Jovic, Duarte
MN IN: Sexton and Smith

Sexton-Mike-NAW-DD-ANT-Jaden-NAZ-Smith-Rudy
RD-Minott-Garza
Miller-TSJ
(Sets up 2nd trade of NAW or DD)

[FrenchMinnyFan]

I will go for Kuzma + Valencunias for Randle. Kuzma score well and JV can easily play well when we need more offense and is a great rebounder.
I will go for Ingram for Randle too.....
....in fact i will go for anything for Randle

Seems that we are on the trade move , reading all info starting to pump up on media. Finally, FO seems to realize that we go nowhere with the current roster.