RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[ScrantonBulls]

Someone fact check this but from a user in the 30 point games thread.

"MJ outscored 982 out of 983 of his opponents head to head in his entire career. The only player to outscore him was AI. Now Jordan was at the tail end of his career at the time of course.

MJ outscored 268 out of 269 opponents head to head in playoff series. Terry Cummings was the only player to outscore him in a series very early in MJ's career.

To quote OP post - The extent of his dominance is simply incredible!"



(as far as I know, this is all true)

It took me looking up literally one player to figure out this was incorrect. AI was already listed as scoring more than MJ head-to-head. The player I looked up was TMac. TMac scored more than MJ head-to-head. You know things are looking grim when MJ fans have to resort to lying. Of course, it could just be a case of bledredwine being wrong for the 100th time.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/michael_jordan_vs_tracy_mcgrady.htm

Second player I looked was Vince Carter, who also outscored MJ.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/vince_carter_vs_michael_jordan.htm

Woah, the entire second half of your comment is just basketball-related, drama free statements. I respect it.
The first half, however, is still very trashy and childish.

You also need to look up "lying" as I told you in the original post I was awaiting confirmation and didn't fact check it.
I get that you're upset and MJ dominating the debate, but there's no reason to make baseless claims and resort to
childish insults.

Now, back to actual basketball...

Anyone while he was on the Bulls before 2nd retirement?

As far as playoff series, I almost know it to be true. I need someone to prove it wrong if so, but I've never seen someone outscore Jordan in a playoff series (apparently Cummings did)

- Posts fake news
- Gets extremely defensive after being called out for posting fake news.

Just take the L and move along. You were too lazy to fact check the fake statistic that you were spreading because it aligned with what you wanted to believe. Par for the course with you. It is what it is.

[KyRo23]

C'mon this is too easy

Read on Twitter

And when LeBron surpass him in points in the regular season and playoffs,LeBron had also less shot attempts that MJ

If LeBron shot as much as MJ he might have 50,000 points right now lmao

If MJ decided to stat pad and play out 22 seasons only playing one end he'd have had 100,000 and 12 rings. See, it works both ways.

I mean he basically stat padded points for 15 years and LeBron still passed him on less shots. So basically we know that even if Jordan played as long as LeBron, there's no way he passes him if they are both doing the same "stat pad". Give them both the same amount of shots for 22 years and LeBron is still ahead of him

[MrPainfulTruth]

If LeBron shot as much as MJ he might have 50,000 points right now lmao

If MJ decided to stat pad and play out 22 seasons only playing one end he'd have had 100,000 and 12 rings. See, it works both ways.

I mean he basically stat padded points for 15 years and LeBron still passed him on less shots. So basically we know that even if Jordan played as long as LeBron, there's no way he passes him if they are both doing the same "stat pad". Give them both the same amount of shots for 22 years and LeBron is still ahead of him

MJ playing in garbage time against G Leaguers to inflate his stats? I think not. MJ sitting out against the strong teams to play the tanking teams? Dont remember that.

[KyRo23]

If MJ decided to stat pad and play out 22 seasons only playing one end he'd have had 100,000 and 12 rings. See, it works both ways.

I mean he basically stat padded points for 15 years and LeBron still passed him on less shots. So basically we know that even if Jordan played as long as LeBron, there's no way he passes him if they are both doing the same "stat pad". Give them both the same amount of shots for 22 years and LeBron is still ahead of him

MJ playing in garbage time against G Leaguers to inflate his stats? I think not. MJ sitting out against the strong teams to play the tanking teams? Dont remember that.

LeBron shooting 24 times a game for a decade? Don't remember that

[Homer38]

If MJ decided to stat pad and play out 22 seasons only playing one end he'd have had 100,000 and 12 rings. See, it works both ways.

I mean he basically stat padded points for 15 years and LeBron still passed him on less shots. So basically we know that even if Jordan played as long as LeBron, there's no way he passes him if they are both doing the same "stat pad". Give them both the same amount of shots for 22 years and LeBron is still ahead of him

MJ playing in garbage time against G Leaguers to inflate his stats? I think not. MJ sitting out against the strong teams to play the tanking teams? Dont remember that.

fake news

[OdomFan]

New generations of fans will look at Lebron's 45k points, 12k assists and rebounds, along with his vastly better stats and physical attributes, and wonder what exactly Jordan's argument is.

Why do you think the games greatest should be defined by 1 man trying to score the most points, grab the most rebounds, and throw the most assists? It is a Team Game. Is the leader of the team supposed to be great? yes, but he has 4 other teammates on the court with him throughout games for a reason, and a coach thats job is supposed to draw up plays for him and everyone else to maximize the overall squads chances of winning.

Thats the major difference between Lebrons squad, and teams such as the 80s Celtics, 80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 00s Spurs, and 10s Warriors to name a few. People like to say they were so stacked because of this or that guy, or this coach blah blah, and some were (cough KD joining Golden State), but the difference is they trusted in their coach, and in result their coach went/or will go down in history as a hall of famer for that experience of working with that specific team.

Lebron doesn't get to have that on his legacy because he spent so much of his career hopping from 1 squad to another as soon as things got hard that no coach will ever be remembered for coaching him in that same light as Phil with the Bulls, Red Auerbach with the 60s Celtics, Popovich with the Spurs, and Riley with the Lakers. He has gotten coaches fired, and left a team because they refused to fire said coach among other reasons he had with that decision maker, Pat Riley not letting him have his way. Michael Jordan is a better team leader than Lebron will ever be. Lebron was the system of his team, and Mike trusted his coaches system. Thats how he, Pippen and Grant developed into a great trio together in the early 90s, and how Rodman was able to fill in that spot that Grant left when he left to join Orlando. Redeeming Rodmans career from nearly coming to an end because no other team had any interest in taking a chance on him after 1994. That experience from 96-98 extended more rings to that Dennis Rodmans resume. That is how a team is supposed to operate. Not 1 man trying to do everything. Thats why I have Mike over Lebron and always will.

[michaelm]

New generations of fans will look at Lebron's 45k points, 12k assists and rebounds, along with his vastly better stats and physical attributes, and wonder what exactly Jordan's argument is.

It has been said including by the poster who preceded me, Jordan became great and a constant winner when he accepted coaching from a great coach and that coach’s game plan which took the ball out of his hands to some degree. LeBron may well have a greater sum of individual attributes, and certainly has longevity over Jordan and pretty much everyone else, but imo and that of the poster to whom I referred playing heliocentric LeBronball puts a limit on how great a team can be. He is very likely the GOAT floor raiser, but not the GOAT ceiling raiser imo, and none of his teams approach the quality of the Jordan Bulls, Curry/KD Warriors, and probably more than a few others as well. If his teams were less “stacked” it was hardly due to any lack of effort in regard to team stacking on his part either, and as a quasi GM he doesn’t seem to understand the concept of fit overly. He and a healthy younger AD were a great fit, but I almost wonder whether that was serendipitous.

[MavsDirk41]

If LeBron shot as much as MJ he might have 50,000 points right now lmao

If MJ decided to stat pad and play out 22 seasons only playing one end he'd have had 100,000 and 12 rings. See, it works both ways.

I mean he basically stat padded points for 15 years and LeBron still passed him on less shots. So basically we know that even if Jordan played as long as LeBron, there's no way he passes him if they are both doing the same "stat pad". Give them both the same amount of shots for 22 years and LeBron is still ahead of him

Less shot attempts?

Jordan attempted 24,537 field goal attempte in his career
James so far has attempted 29,881 field goal attempts in his career

Unless the internet is wrong this is what i found in less than a minute. Jordan averaged more field goal attempte per game but overall James has over 5 thousand more shot attempts.

[lessthanjake]

The reason Jordan shot more times per game than LeBron is primarily because Jordan is a better scorer than LeBron. The better the scorer, the more they can get to their spots and get their shot off while being efficient, and the more your team wants them to do that. One thing that is crucial in this regard is the amount of energy different shot attempts take. Driving to the hoop is very effective (especially for guys like LeBron and Jordan), but is much more tiring than taking a jump shot. No player can just constantly attack the basket all the time (especially if they don’t want to be a traffic cone on defense). So, for guys like LeBron and Jordan, if you want to scale up your shot attempts really highly, the additional shot attempts are mostly going to come in the form of jump shots, because it just isn’t realistic to consistently have a huge number of shot attempts off of drives to the hoop. And therein lies a massive reason why Jordan had more FGAs per game than LeBron: LeBron was a mediocre jump shooter, while Jordan was perhaps the best mid-range jump shooter in NBA history. In other words, to scale up to a really high number of FGAs per game, Jordan could take shots that he was incredibly good at, while LeBron would need to take a lot more shots that he was mediocre at. Needless to say, these players are smart basketball players, so they’re aware of this, and that’s a huge reason why Jordan simply took a higher volume of shots per game than LeBron did. So yeah, the fact that Jordan had 30+ points in a much higher percent of his games is in large part a reflection of him taking more shots per game, but him taking more shots per game is also in large part a reflection of him being a better scorer. So yeah, the whole thing largely comes down to Jordan being a better scorer.

[KyRo23]

If MJ decided to stat pad and play out 22 seasons only playing one end he'd have had 100,000 and 12 rings. See, it works both ways.

I mean he basically stat padded points for 15 years and LeBron still passed him on less shots. So basically we know that even if Jordan played as long as LeBron, there's no way he passes him if they are both doing the same "stat pad". Give them both the same amount of shots for 22 years and LeBron is still ahead of him

Less shot attempts?

Jordan attempted 24,537 field goal attempte in his career
James so far has attempted 29,881 field goal attempts in his career

Unless the internet is wrong this is what i found in less than a minute. Jordan averaged more field goal attempte per game but overall James has over 5 thousand more shot attempts.

You’re not understanding again lol

When LeBron passed Jordan… not right this second… I believe LeBron did it on about 1300 less shots. Meaning LeBron scored the same amount as Jordan while shooting 1300 less shots. That’s wild. So we can assume that if LeBron shot as much as Jordan, he would have a wild amount of points on top of what he already has

[Kobe187]

1. Jordan
2. James

Pretty unanimous opinion it’s between these two with Jordan being 1 & LeBron 2, can have either as your goat and it’s respectable, anyone that has another player in the top 2 is trolling.

[Ruma85]

1. Jordan
2. James

Pretty unanimous opinion it’s between these two with Jordan being 1A & LeBron 1B, can have either as your goat and it’s respectable, anyone that has another player in the top 2 is trolling.

I disagree but hey each to there own.

[Kobe187]

1. Jordan
2. James

Pretty unanimous opinion it’s between these two with Jordan being 1A & LeBron 1B, can have either as your goat and it’s respectable, anyone that has another player in the top 2 is trolling.

I disagree but hey each to there own.

KAJ? Just curious

[bledredwine]

1. Jordan
2. James

Pretty unanimous opinion it’s between these two with Jordan being 1 & LeBron 2, can have either as your goat and it’s respectable, anyone that has another player in the top 2 is trolling.

How ridiculous with players like Kareem Russell and Wilt.

Give me Hakeem, Shaq, Bird or Magic over Lebron if I want to win the chip in any given year.

Trust me when I say this is ephemeral, just as Kobe GOAT talks were.

[fanofthegreats]

1. Jordan
2. James

Pretty unanimous opinion it’s between these two with Jordan being 1 & LeBron 2, can have either as your goat and it’s respectable, anyone that has another player in the top 2 is trolling.

How ridiculous with players like Kareem Russell and Wilt.

Give me Hakeem, Shaq, Bird or Magic over Lebron if I want to win the chip in any given year.

Trust me when I say this is ephemeral, just as Kobe GOAT talks were.

. None of those players have any real case above LeBron. Lol@ the comparisons with Kobe, your usual shtick has no basis. Please provide a fact based case for your ridiculous take.

[Ruma85]

1. Jordan
2. James

Pretty unanimous opinion it’s between these two with Jordan being 1 & LeBron 2, can have either as your goat and it’s respectable, anyone that has another player in the top 2 is trolling.

How ridiculous with players like Kareem Russell and Wilt.

Give me Hakeem, Shaq, Bird or Magic over Lebron if I want to win the chip in any given year.

Trust me when I say this is ephemeral, just as Kobe GOAT talks were.

. None of those players have any real case above LeBron. Lol@ the comparisons with Kobe, your usual shtick has no basis. Please provide a fact based case for your ridiculous take.

Kareem has no argument what so ever, at all??

[Homer38]

It takes crazy random criteria with no facts to not put LeBron in the top 4 all-time with Jordan, KAJ and Russell

James has been top 4 all-time since 2016 and he has added a lot to his resume since then

[One_and_Done]

New generations of fans will look at Lebron's 45k points, 12k assists and rebounds, along with his vastly better stats and physical attributes, and wonder what exactly Jordan's argument is.

Why do you think the games greatest should be defined by 1 man trying to score the most points, grab the most rebounds, and throw the most assists? It is a Team Game. Is the leader of the team supposed to be great? yes, but he has 4 other teammates on the court with him throughout games for a reason, and a coach thats job is supposed to draw up plays for him and everyone else to maximize the overall squads chances of winning.

Thats the major difference between Lebrons squad, and teams such as the 80s Celtics, 80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 00s Spurs, and 10s Warriors to name a few. People like to say they were so stacked because of this or that guy, or this coach blah blah, and some were (cough KD joining Golden State), but the difference is they trusted in their coach, and in result their coach went/or will go down in history as a hall of famer for that experience of working with that specific team.

Lebron doesn't get to have that on his legacy because he spent so much of his career hopping from 1 squad to another as soon as things got hard that no coach will ever be remembered for coaching him in that same light as Phil with the Bulls, Red Auerbach with the 60s Celtics, Popovich with the Spurs, and Riley with the Lakers. He has gotten coaches fired, and left a team because they refused to fire said coach among other reasons he had with that decision maker, Pat Riley not letting him have his way. Michael Jordan is a better team leader than Lebron will ever be. Lebron was the system of his team, and Mike trusted his coaches system. Thats how he, Pippen and Grant developed into a great trio together in the early 90s, and how Rodman was able to fill in that spot that Grant left when he left to join Orlando. Redeeming Rodmans career from nearly coming to an end because no other team had any interest in taking a chance on him after 1994. That experience from 96-98 extended more rings to that Dennis Rodmans resume. That is how a team is supposed to operate. Not 1 man trying to do everything. Thats why I have Mike over Lebron and always will.

I thought Lebron was the greatest before he even had 30k points, and would think he was just as good with zero titles. Really, the huge career numbers will just help casual fans understand, in the same way that casuals now use 'Ringzzzz' as their go to argument.

Lebron's teams were very often not stacked. The 09 and 10 Cavs won 60+ games thanks to him, and were a low 20s win team once he left. Lebron probably had the GOAT floor raising ability. He got better team mates later because he needed a real team around him, but I'd hardly call them historuc super teams. You claim Lebron's teams were different to past teams like the 80s Lakers. I don't see how that's remotely true. The 80s Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and then usually 3-4 good players aside from those 3, including a bunch of all-stars like Norm Nixon or AC Green. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have Kareem and Worthy over Wade and Bosh, especially if I'm getting 3-4 other great players too. It's not even a question who you're taking between them and Kyrie and Love.

Jordan punched his own team mate in the face. He was a terrible leader. He was just fortunate to play in a weak era. The 98 Bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today.

[OdomFan]

New generations of fans will look at Lebron's 45k points, 12k assists and rebounds, along with his vastly better stats and physical attributes, and wonder what exactly Jordan's argument is.

Why do you think the games greatest should be defined by 1 man trying to score the most points, grab the most rebounds, and throw the most assists? It is a Team Game. Is the leader of the team supposed to be great? yes, but he has 4 other teammates on the court with him throughout games for a reason, and a coach thats job is supposed to draw up plays for him and everyone else to maximize the overall squads chances of winning.

Thats the major difference between Lebrons squad, and teams such as the 80s Celtics, 80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 00s Spurs, and 10s Warriors to name a few. People like to say they were so stacked because of this or that guy, or this coach blah blah, and some were (cough KD joining Golden State), but the difference is they trusted in their coach, and in result their coach went/or will go down in history as a hall of famer for that experience of working with that specific team.

Lebron doesn't get to have that on his legacy because he spent so much of his career hopping from 1 squad to another as soon as things got hard that no coach will ever be remembered for coaching him in that same light as Phil with the Bulls, Red Auerbach with the 60s Celtics, Popovich with the Spurs, and Riley with the Lakers. He has gotten coaches fired, and left a team because they refused to fire said coach among other reasons he had with that decision maker, Pat Riley not letting him have his way. Michael Jordan is a better team leader than Lebron will ever be. Lebron was the system of his team, and Mike trusted his coaches system. Thats how he, Pippen and Grant developed into a great trio together in the early 90s, and how Rodman was able to fill in that spot that Grant left when he left to join Orlando. Redeeming Rodmans career from nearly coming to an end because no other team had any interest in taking a chance on him after 1994. That experience from 96-98 extended more rings to that Dennis Rodmans resume. That is how a team is supposed to operate. Not 1 man trying to do everything. Thats why I have Mike over Lebron and always will.

I thought Lebron was the greatest before he even had 30k points, and would think he was just as good with zero titles. Really, the huge career numbers will just help casual fans understand, in the same way that casuals now use 'Ringzzzz' as their go to argument.

Lebron's teams were very often not stacked. The 09 and 10 Cavs won 60+ games thanks to him, and were a low 20s win team once he left. Lebron probably had the GOAT floor raising ability. He got better team mates later because he needed a real team around him, but I'd hardly call them historic* super teams. You claim Lebron's teams were different to past teams like the 80s Lakers. I don't see how that's remotely true. The 80s Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and then usually 3-4 good players aside from those 3, including a bunch of all-stars like Norm Nixon or AC Green. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have Kareem and Worthy over Wade and Bosh, especially if I'm getting 3-4 other great players too. It's not even a question who you're taking between them and Kyrie and Love.

Jordan punched his own team mate in the face. He was a terrible leader. He was just fortunate to play in a weak era. The 98 Bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today.

Its funny how you hold on to that punch incident but either ignore or don't know that Mike apologized to Steve the same exact day that it happened, then he and Kerr moved past it, (as should you but it really doesn't matter) and went on to literally win the 1997 championship together. Mike went to Steve during a time out and trusted him with that game winning shot and threw the man the pass himself to win it all for Chicago. If thats not great leadership nothing is. He was a damn good leader. Clearly you don't know what great leadership is if you're going to call Jordan a terrible one.

Mike wasn't a perfect man at all, but his teammates respected him while they played together year after year. Before most recently because of the stuff with Jordans son messing with Pippens wife, Scottie always had nothing but positive things to say about his experience of playing with the Bulls and Jordan. He called Mike the greatest of all time. Mike may not have been their buddy, but always had that team ready to give it 110% along with him. That's how they as an overall core was as great as they were within that tringle offense system.

As far as your stuff about the 80s Lakers goes, They were absolutely different. Kareem was the only established star with a ring to his name before Magic got there. He had 1 ring. 1. in 1971, after that the Bucks lost every single other time, then he jumped to the Lakers and didn't get a single ring until young Magic showed up. Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and the rest of those guys build a actual team chemistry that is in no way shape or form anything similar to Lebron jumping to other teams to join up with Wade and Bosh or Kyrie and Love. You've made it pretty clear that you don't know much about this stuff. so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Adios.

[One_and_Done]

Why do you think the games greatest should be defined by 1 man trying to score the most points, grab the most rebounds, and throw the most assists? It is a Team Game. Is the leader of the team supposed to be great? yes, but he has 4 other teammates on the court with him throughout games for a reason, and a coach thats job is supposed to draw up plays for him and everyone else to maximize the overall squads chances of winning.

Thats the major difference between Lebrons squad, and teams such as the 80s Celtics, 80s Lakers, 90s Bulls, 00s Spurs, and 10s Warriors to name a few. People like to say they were so stacked because of this or that guy, or this coach blah blah, and some were (cough KD joining Golden State), but the difference is they trusted in their coach, and in result their coach went/or will go down in history as a hall of famer for that experience of working with that specific team.

Lebron doesn't get to have that on his legacy because he spent so much of his career hopping from 1 squad to another as soon as things got hard that no coach will ever be remembered for coaching him in that same light as Phil with the Bulls, Red Auerbach with the 60s Celtics, Popovich with the Spurs, and Riley with the Lakers. He has gotten coaches fired, and left a team because they refused to fire said coach among other reasons he had with that decision maker, Pat Riley not letting him have his way. Michael Jordan is a better team leader than Lebron will ever be. Lebron was the system of his team, and Mike trusted his coaches system. Thats how he, Pippen and Grant developed into a great trio together in the early 90s, and how Rodman was able to fill in that spot that Grant left when he left to join Orlando. Redeeming Rodmans career from nearly coming to an end because no other team had any interest in taking a chance on him after 1994. That experience from 96-98 extended more rings to that Dennis Rodmans resume. That is how a team is supposed to operate. Not 1 man trying to do everything. Thats why I have Mike over Lebron and always will.

I thought Lebron was the greatest before he even had 30k points, and would think he was just as good with zero titles. Really, the huge career numbers will just help casual fans understand, in the same way that casuals now use 'Ringzzzz' as their go to argument.

Lebron's teams were very often not stacked. The 09 and 10 Cavs won 60+ games thanks to him, and were a low 20s win team once he left. Lebron probably had the GOAT floor raising ability. He got better team mates later because he needed a real team around him, but I'd hardly call them historic* super teams. You claim Lebron's teams were different to past teams like the 80s Lakers. I don't see how that's remotely true. The 80s Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and then usually 3-4 good players aside from those 3, including a bunch of all-stars like Norm Nixon or AC Green. I dunno about you, but I'd rather have Kareem and Worthy over Wade and Bosh, especially if I'm getting 3-4 other great players too. It's not even a question who you're taking between them and Kyrie and Love.

Jordan punched his own team mate in the face. He was a terrible leader. He was just fortunate to play in a weak era. The 98 Bulls wouldn't get out of the 2nd round of the West today.

Its funny how you hold on to that punch incident but either ignore or don't know that Mike apologized to Steve the same exact day that it happened, then he and Kerr moved past it, (as should you but it really doesn't matter) and went on to literally win the 1997 championship together. Mike went to Steve during a time out and trusted him with that game winning shot and threw the man the pass himself to win it all for Chicago. If thats not great leadership nothing is. He was a damn good leader. Clearly you don't know what great leadership is if you're going to call Jordan a terrible one.

Mike wasn't a perfect man at all, but his teammates respected him while they played together year after year. Before most recently because of the stuff with Jordans son messing with Pippens wife, Scottie always had nothing but positive things to say about his experience of playing with the Bulls and Jordan. He called Mike the greatest of all time. Mike may not have been their buddy, but always had that team ready to give it 110% along with him. That's how they as an overall core was as great as they were within that tringle offense system.

As far as your stuff about the 80s Lakers goes, They were absolutely different. Kareem was the only established star with a ring to his name before Magic got there. He had 1 ring. 1. in 1971, after that the Bucks lost every single other time, then he jumped to the Lakers and didn't get a single ring until young Magic showed up. Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and the rest of those guys build a actual team chemistry that is in no way shape or form anything similar to Lebron jumping to other teams to join up with Wade and Bosh or Kyrie and Love. You've made it pretty clear that you don't know much about this stuff. so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Adios.

Kareem is arguably the 2nd best player of all-time after Lebron, it's a no brainer to take him over Wade (who started declining quickly once Lebron arrived). Whether Worthy was 'established' is meaningless, Wemby wasn't 'established' when he entered the league. He's still better than Kevin Love or Chris Bosh.

You can win titles while being a terrible leader, and a terrible person. Jordan and Kobe are 2 good examples of that, heck Kareem is a good example if that.