Cade Cunningham should be an all star

[7seventynine9]

If you're a Pistons fans, you have to be encouraged by his season. He does need to improve his effiency in side the arc some, but I imagine that would improve with better teammates, leading to better shot selection. The Pistons still don't have a clear 2nd option, which would also help. Jaden Ivey has looked decent this year as wel but he also needs to improve his effiency inside the arc. WIth that said, he looks more like a 3rd option but he's still just 22.

I think acquiring a 5 who can stretch the floor like Myles Turner in the offseason would benefit the Pistons a lot. I guess it depends on how they view Isaiah Stewart but he's regressed this year. Ausar staying healthy and catching up to Amen would also help the team out a lot.

[Laimbeer]

Cade goes into Phoenix: 28 points, 13 assists, 4 stocks on 63.4% TS and a wire to wire win. Even a few MVP chants on his final three throws .

In his last 8 games since returning from a brief injury - 25.3 ppg, 11.5 apg, 6.8 rpg (on 60% TS, just to satisfy the efficiency analyzers).

Not an All-Star though.

This is literally the only forum I’ve found on the internet saying Cade isn’t an all-star. Lmfao.

I frequent a few avenues for NBA discussion, the majority not being Pistons fans, and the overwhelming sentiment is that Cade is deserving of being an All-Star. Some people are actually debating whether he deserves to be a starter and whether he is in All-NBA contention (for the record I think he currently falls short of both of those). Agreed that RealGM seems to be a bit of an outlier in that respect.

Links please.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Recency bias is so hilarious these days. A couple more good games and ppl gonna be saying hes the league MVP lol

I mean players are judged on the first half of the season, so yeah if he's playing at all star level he'll get some all star credit, going #1 in a draft is a boon too, as well as being the face of a chise

[Tor_Raps]

Recency bias is so hilarious these days. A couple more good games and ppl gonna be saying hes the league MVP lol

I mean players are judged on the first half of the season, so yeah if he's playing at all star level he'll get some all star credit, going #1 in a draft is a boon too, as well as being the face of a chise

Hey, he's kept up the great play and most importantly Detroit has been winning since I made that post. He's showing everyone why he went number 1 in a stacked draft.

My point was that we were going to need a larger sample size to remove the taste of the Pistons from the past several years. Good on Cade/Detroit!

[Han Solo]

Recency bias is so hilarious these days. A couple more good games and ppl gonna be saying hes the league MVP lol

I mean players are judged on the first half of the season, so yeah if he's playing at all star level he'll get some all star credit, going #1 in a draft is a boon too, as well as being the face of a chise

Hey, he's kept up the great play and most importantly Detroit has been winning since I made that post. He's showing everyone why he went number 1 in a stacked draft.

My point was that we were going to need a larger sample size to remove the taste of the Pistons from the past several years. Good on Cade/Detroit!

He’s better than Scottie Barnes. Way better. Big enough sample. He’s better than anyone from his class. And it’s not close. It won’t be at all going forward.

[Tor_Raps]

I mean players are judged on the first half of the season, so yeah if he's playing at all star level he'll get some all star credit, going #1 in a draft is a boon too, as well as being the face of a chise

Hey, he's kept up the great play and most importantly Detroit has been winning since I made that post. He's showing everyone why he went number 1 in a stacked draft.

My point was that we were going to need a larger sample size to remove the taste of the Pistons from the past several years. Good on Cade/Detroit!

He’s better than Scottie Barnes. Way better. Big enough sample. He’s better than anyone from his class. And it’s not close. It won’t be at all going forward.

Sure but he hasn't shown that until the past several weeks. You sound very defensive for no reason... it's not a hot take to say a guy who was part of the worst losing streak in recent memory needed to do better lol.

[tmorgan]

Yeh, Franz is from his class, too, plus Scottie, Sengun and Mobley. He can be an All-Star without being better than his draft class.

[Mr Peanut]

Just some pertinent Data. Not really niche. They are the most respected impact metrics.
I think the worst posts are those that are needlessly negative and make assumptions about other posters.

LEBRON and EPM are commonly quoted on this board so could be assumed to be widely known, but the majority of NBA fans would have no idea what you're talking about i.e. niche. They do have their role in player analysis but also have their flaws, like any metric. So they should be complementary to the other data, and using them as the primary basis to rank players and base a definitive opinion off is somewhat disingenuous.

These are currently among the best holistic, comprehensive metrics to measure overall impact on winning. Yes there are other more traditional statistics but they are much more narrow in what they aim to measure so they are much more prone to arbitrary cherry-picking and also they fail to integrate off-ball play and defense as they only capture statistical outputs.

Advanced impact metrics were the first to suggest that Jokic was actually solid on defense and that thereby he could be a championship-winning center, against common (and ultimately false) assumptions.

Just because the large majority of fans are ignorant to these metrics doesn't diminish in any way their relevance.

Jokic is giving up 69.1% at the rim this season (which is not exactly an outlier from previous seasons either). Obviously that's just one metric to measure defensive impact but it's a pretty important one and it seems to be at odds with certain advanced stats that suggest he's a solid defender. But I can also be open here and say that I probably only watch 10-15 games per year in which Jokic plays (+ a few more in the playoffs), and if a Denver fan entered the thread and explained certain reasons why he is a solid defender that are better appreciated through watching a larger sample size of his games then I'm not going to blurt out some extra stats and pretend I know better.

I don't think we're really able to decide which stats are the most "holistic" or "comprehensive" as there's quite a lot of subjectivity involved in that. And regarding the accusation of attempting to diminish the relevance of certain advanced stats, I'm simply saying they shouldn't be used as a trump card to make a definitive judgment on players like some posters are doing in this thread. Some advanced stats often haven't been in favor of Cade which is multifactorial and while they can reflect the weaknesses in his game, other important reasons are the defensive pressure he receives due to being the primary hub of the offense and often taking contested shots, not being surrounded by adequate spacing, and getting a terrible whistle when he gets to the rim. A lot of posters in this thread wouldn't be aware of those extenuating factors though as they don't watch him play and would rather open Basketball Reference or the NBA.com stats page and make their judgments from there instead. It's lazy and quite ignorant really.

[RRR3]

I mean players are judged on the first half of the season, so yeah if he's playing at all star level he'll get some all star credit, going #1 in a draft is a boon too, as well as being the face of a chise

Hey, he's kept up the great play and most importantly Detroit has been winning since I made that post. He's showing everyone why he went number 1 in a stacked draft.

My point was that we were going to need a larger sample size to remove the taste of the Pistons from the past several years. Good on Cade/Detroit!

He’s better than Scottie Barnes. Way better. Big enough sample. He’s better than anyone from his class. And it’s not close. It won’t be at all going forward.

He is absolutely not better than Evan Mobley or Franz Wagner.

[basketballRob]

I mean players are judged on the first half of the season, so yeah if he's playing at all star level he'll get some all star credit, going #1 in a draft is a boon too, as well as being the face of a chise

Hey, he's kept up the great play and most importantly Detroit has been winning since I made that post. He's showing everyone why he went number 1 in a stacked draft.

My point was that we were going to need a larger sample size to remove the taste of the Pistons from the past several years. Good on Cade/Detroit!

He’s better than Scottie Barnes. Way better. Big enough sample. He’s better than anyone from his class. And it’s not close. It won’t be at all going forward.

Franz has been the better player this season on offense and defense. Cade is playing well. Franz was playing at a superstar level before his injury.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[Chanel Bomber]

LEBRON and EPM are commonly quoted on this board so could be assumed to be widely known, but the majority of NBA fans would have no idea what you're talking about i.e. niche. They do have their role in player analysis but also have their flaws, like any metric. So they should be complementary to the other data, and using them as the primary basis to rank players and base a definitive opinion off is somewhat disingenuous.

These are currently among the best holistic, comprehensive metrics to measure overall impact on winning. Yes there are other more traditional statistics but they are much more narrow in what they aim to measure so they are much more prone to arbitrary cherry-picking and also they fail to integrate off-ball play and defense as they only capture statistical outputs.

Advanced impact metrics were the first to suggest that Jokic was actually solid on defense and that thereby he could be a championship-winning center, against common (and ultimately false) assumptions.

Just because the large majority of fans are ignorant to these metrics doesn't diminish in any way their relevance.

Jokic is giving up 69.1% at the rim this season (which is not exactly an outlier from previous seasons either). Obviously that's just one metric to measure defensive impact but it's a pretty important one and it seems to be at odds with certain advanced stats that suggest he's a solid defender. But I can also be open here and say that I probably only watch 10-15 games per year in which Jokic plays (+ a few more in the playoffs), and if a Denver fan entered the thread and explained certain reasons why he is a solid defender that are better appreciated through watching a larger sample size of his games then I'm not going to blurt out some extra stats and pretend I know better.

I don't think we're really able to decide which stats are the most "holistic" or "comprehensive" as there's quite a lot of subjectivity involved in that. And regarding the accusation of attempting to diminish the relevance of certain advanced stats, I'm simply saying they shouldn't be used as a trump card to make a definitive judgment on players like some posters are doing in this thread. Some advanced stats often haven't been in favor of Cade which is multifactorial and while they can reflect the weaknesses in his game, other important reasons are the defensive pressure he receives due to being the primary hub of the offense and often taking contested shots, not being surrounded by adequate spacing, and getting a terrible whistle when he gets to the rim. A lot of posters in this thread wouldn't be aware of those extenuating factors though as they don't watch him play and would rather open Basketball Reference or the NBA.com stats page and make their judgments from there instead. It's lazy and quite ignorant really.

But that's exactly the crux of the discussion, isn't it.

Rim protection is a key aspect of defense, especially for centers, but it's still only one aspect of defense. And while rim protection and overall defense are often correlated, there have been historical counterexamples that show that you can find ways to build a good defense without a rim protector. So to assume Denver couldn't win a championship with Jokic because he doesn't protect the rim - the conventional wisdom pre-2023 - was always lazy (not saying you ever made this point, I'm only referring to the discussion around impact metrics).

Jokic is one of the smartest players in the league - he has great anticipation defensively, he can see plays before they happen, great hands in the passing lanes, and a massive body that shrinks the court and enables him to guard the post. He might not be a rim protector, and he has no recovery skills, but all the aforementioned qualities help mitigate his flaws, which explains why his defense was never as bad as some assumed based on their subjective eye test.

And the data suggested that from the beginning. We didn't need Denver fans - most of whom are inherently biased as are most fans when it comes to their team - to tell us that, we only needed to look at the data.

These metrics were built to paint a fairly holistic picture. That was their intent, unlike more traditional or more narrow stats, be it PPG, TS% or DFG%, which only capture outputs that account for a very limited and selective amount of possessions. These metrics are meant to capture all possessions. And the rationale for using them is precisely to remove the subjectivity that is naturally engrained in the eye test.

Most of these advanced impact metrics are meant to extract the noise from exogenous factors. To account for context that the more traditional stats do not capture. So if anything, you should be more inclined to pay attention to them, based on your paragraph. Cade has made a lot of progress and his epm for this season suggests an upwards trajectory that is promising after a slow career start. Whether he deserves to be an All-Star is less substantive to me - what I like to see is that his impact on winning appears to have made a jump. And that matters more for Detroit in my view.

[Han Solo]

Cade.

[zeebneeb]

Cade.

CUNNINGHAM.

[Mr Peanut]

He's had a couple of mediocre games recently but came back in a big way tonight. 40 points on 62.3% TS, 9 assists, 6 rebounds.

Ant showed his scoring chops, but Cade can also facilitate and create scoring opportunities for his teammates and that was the difference that propelled the Pistons to the win.

[aad]

Should be a all star lock

[JackTalkThai]

Hey, he's kept up the great play and most importantly Detroit has been winning since I made that post. He's showing everyone why he went number 1 in a stacked draft.

My point was that we were going to need a larger sample size to remove the taste of the Pistons from the past several years. Good on Cade/Detroit!

He’s better than Scottie Barnes. Way better. Big enough sample. He’s better than anyone from his class. And it’s not close. It won’t be at all going forward.

He is absolutely not better than Evan Mobley or Franz Wagner.

If given the choice, there is not a single owner, GM, coach, player or scout in the league, knowing everything about each player that they know now, who would take Wagner over Cade.

Zero.

None.

Only contrarian and/or illogical fans on the sidelines (who would face no real world repercussions from making such decision) would opt for Franz in such an either/or hypothetical.

Mobley or Cade is a much tougher decision and would depend entirely on the value you place on their two “critical-to-winning” in the modern NBA positions; a high-end 6’11” 3&D big vs a heliocentric 6’7” triple-double-threat lead guard.

I think most executives would be fairly split in that decision with maybe a slight edge to Mobley. Not because he’s the better player but more so due to the rarity and difficulty of finding that kind of big man in today’s game.

[stillgotgame]

Bucks fan here. I’d take Cade as an all star before Dame no doubt. Love Cade’s development as a passer, leader and quarterback of the offense. I really like his decision making. Pistons are far from competitive but he’s got them heading in the right direction.

[tmorgan]

Yeah, I get that Franz looked great this year before getting hurt, but it’s not a big sample of games. He spent the previous season struggling from three, and while he’s very talented and versatile, I”m not sure if we have any proof yet of an elite skill.

You can easily make counter-arguments against Cade, too, don’t get me wrong. But this is his first season without multiple “shouldn’t be in the NBA” teammates getting significant minutes, and suddenly he looks better and so does Detroit. Not a coincidence. Just give Cade a lob threat, competent shooters, and some defensive help, and he’ll get you 25 and 10 nightly. And while his defense is a work in progress, it has definitely improved.

[baldur]

He will be.

[ValvPiti]

Bucks fan here. I’d take Cade as an all star before Dame no doubt. Love Cade’s development as a passer, leader and quarterback of the offense. I really like his decision making. Pistons are far from competitive but he’s got them heading in the right direction.

Wdym far from competetive? They can win against most teams on a nightly basis and will probably be a .500 team after beating Portland Monday, thats pretty competetive to me. If you are a .500 you are a pretty decent team in this league