2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation

[bwgood77]

I do still kind of believe if we were completely healthy, with all 3 of the big guns, Royce, Tyus, Grayson, etc, we would have a chance to get to the 4 or 5 or 6 seed. We really don't have that much worse of a record than last year.

Looking at the standing now, after OKC every contender is struggling right now Dallas has injuries and suspensions, Memphis can't stay healthy, Houston is up and down, Lakers relies too much on the 40yrs old LeBron and injury prone AD who's been inconsistent so they will be up and down too.

After the Sixers game tomorrow, our January schedule looks like this:

@ Charlotte
vs Atlanta
vs Utah
vs Charlotte
@ Atlanta
@ Washington
@ Detroit
@ Cleveland
@ Brooklyn
vs Washington
vs LA Clips
vs Minnesota
@ Golden State

This will be the easiest month any team can get and before the deadline too. On paper we should go 10-3 but if we can go 8-5 that might be enough to get us to the 5 seed

Yeah, I mentioned our schedule is easier, and yes, all teams ahead of us have problems, but Memphis has done very well despite missing Ja like half of the games, Smart most of them, and Edey many of them. Dallas does have serious injuries, but who knows with them? The problem is that we would have to leapfrog so many teams. It's unlikely they all do poorly because there will be many games vs each other.

We will have to go on a winning streak and that will have to give us confidence over the final couple of months. I know we also have Portland b2b at the beginning of Feb.

Kawhi is back for the Clips too.....for now. But I am not sure how on paper we should go 10-3. Atlanta and Detroit have better records than us (and Atlanta has gotten better recently). Than Cleveland, LA, Minn and GS all have better records. I assume you would expect us to beat Atl twice and Detroit along with I suppose maybe Minnesota.

[garrick]

The Suns need to stop pushing for a Beal trade which is almost impossible.

Instead they (Ishbia) needs to decide if we are a treadmill team and if so trade both KD and Book for assets, once both are gone Beal probably will be more open to waiving his NTC but not until its clear this team is in rebuild mode.

Adding filler for this roster is next to impossible unless you're going to find a diamond in the rough among the undrafted and free agents still left unsigned and JJ has never been known to have a sharp eye on discovering hidden talent.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Getting Butler will only make the inevitable last longer. Stupidity all around.

Very true perhaps! UNLESS we actually had the intent to get Butler and then not actually extend/ resign him just to get off of Beals' "no trade" clause. But even if we did give him the offer he'd be seeking, the key here would be that at least with Butler, he wouldn't have the no-trade clause, and we could look to trade him as soon as the following season for whatever. But the key here would be to get off of Beals' no-trade clause (killer provision) in the interest of claiming some modicum of cap flexibility under the 2nd apron potentially??

Ultimately, I believe this could be why we're pursuing Butler so aggressively, BUT are unwilling to hand over our 2031 1st in a deal. Because we'd anticipate possibly starting a rebuild in a year or two and might really regret not holding onto that pick as we bottom out! The irony is that Riley is much smarter/accomplished than anyone we have in our front office, and anticipates this too. Which is why he refuses to take back Beals' contract salary and "no trade" clause." Our best bet with Beal (just to get off of his contract) would be to honestly.....................

- Trade Tyus Jones for a first if at all possible (I believe it is)!!!!
- Trade Allen or O'neale for another decent 1st or multiple 2nds.
- Trade Bol for another 2nd or two (if possible).
-Trade Okogie for a 2nd or two (if possible).

And then package these to a team with multiple 1sts to get 1-2 firsts back. And then package those picks and our 2031 1st to a team like the Lakers, Golden State, Sacramento, or whatever team he'd be open to being traded to, and then move on from him if at all possible! In the meantime, I'd absolutely go to him and let him know that because of our continuing struggles and the redundancy of both he and Booker being the same positional players on the court/ all being ball-dominant players and needing the ball to be effective, I'm moving him to the bench as our super 6th man scorer. And under the premise of balancing out the roster better. But also knowing that he really won't want this, and hoping that it'll pressure him/ influence him to become open to being traded elsewhere wherein he can be featured more as a primary option, which he can't be here under our current roster construction.

*** IF we still can't find an amenable trade for him, then we DIRECTLY let him know that we just can't contend competitively under these conditions and will begin our rebuild (for which he won't want to stay anyways) and he's welcome to waive his no-trade clause to give us more options to find him a suitable team to be traded to. The above-listed players we traded away, we'll use those assets towards our rebuild, or towards other trades, etc.

[garrick]

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2025/1/5/24335330/nba-10-day-contracts-phoenix-suns-free-agent-options-g-league-roster-depth?fbclid=IwY2xjawHn_0pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdJubUDrKs1TATe-05xVvfxTHKQaGTm4fQ2eDFi_okjVwR0x0EQ8QAebqg_aem_bcOvZdspsXy-Atrnf1XgLA

GoK some possible 10 day contracts that JJ should be looking at although with his track record he is likely fiddling his thumbs in his plush office.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10149683-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-suns-gov-would-be-willing-to-give-heat-star-new-contract

Jimmy Butler Trade Rumors: Suns Gov. Would Be Willing to Give Heat Star New Contract

Scott Polacek X
January 5th, 2025

NBA insider Marc Stein reported Sunday that the Phoenix Suns are "widely regarded as the team most interested in trading for Butler." What's more, Suns governor Matt Ishbia "is believed to be as willing to sign the 35-year-old to a lucrative new contract as anyone you'll find."

Butler has a $52.4 million player option for the 2025-26 campaign, so his immediate future will be of concern for any team that trades for him.

If he opts out of that deal, he would only be a short-term rental for any suitor. If he opts into it, he will be an expensive commitment during his age-36 season in 2025-26.

[sunskerr]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10149683-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-suns-gov-would-be-willing-to-give-heat-star-new-contract

Jimmy Butler Trade Rumors: Suns Gov. Would Be Willing to Give Heat Star New Contract

Scott Polacek X
January 5th, 2025

NBA insider Marc Stein reported Sunday that the Phoenix Suns are "widely regarded as the team most interested in trading for Butler." What's more, Suns governor Matt Ishbia "is believed to be as willing to sign the 35-year-old to a lucrative new contract as anyone you'll find."

Butler has a $52.4 million player option for the 2025-26 campaign, so his immediate future will be of concern for any team that trades for him.

If he opts out of that deal, he would only be a short-term rental for any suitor. If he opts into it, he will be an expensive commitment during his age-36 season in 2025-26.

Oh dear

Spoiler:

how stupid can you be to give a 36 year old a big long term deal. Like actually something is structurally wrong with his brain. Maybe the neurons aren't all firing. I really try not to lose composure when it comes to this team but this is just ridiculous if true. Just gonna wait for Gambo to say something

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2025/1/5/24335330/nba-10-day-contracts-phoenix-suns-free-agent-options-g-league-roster-depth?fbclid=IwY2xjawHn_0pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdJubUDrKs1TATe-05xVvfxTHKQaGTm4fQ2eDFi_okjVwR0x0EQ8QAebqg_aem_bcOvZdspsXy-Atrnf1XgLA

GoK some possible 10-day contracts that JJ should be looking at although with his track record, he is likely fiddling his thumbs in his plush office.

Great article! Thanks for sharing it man. :thumbs-up:

Not that I believe any specific 10-day contracts would actually change our fortunes or imminent trajectory. But of this list, I'd absolutely prioritize:

-Ibou Badji - Mobile shot-blocking center.
- Reggie Perry- strong, rugged, big-bodied rebounding versatile power Forward. Kind of a dollar-store version of Bam Adebayo.
- Robert Covington. Known commodity and still a fairly versatile defender. But what I'm really hoping for as far as low-end trades go, I'd look to trade D Lee/ Plumlee/2nds to LAC for Kai Jones and Bamba alternatively.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10149683-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-suns-gov-would-be-willing-to-give-heat-star-new-contract

Jimmy Butler Trade Rumors: Suns Gov. Would Be Willing to Give Heat Star New Contract

Scott Polacek X
January 5th, 2025

NBA insider Marc Stein reported Sunday that the Phoenix Suns are "widely regarded as the team most interested in trading for Butler." What's more, Suns governor Matt Ishbia "is believed to be as willing to sign the 35-year-old to a lucrative new contract as anyone you'll find."

Butler has a $52.4 million player option for the 2025-26 campaign, so his immediate future will be of concern for any team that trades for him.

If he opts out of that deal, he would only be a short-term rental for any suitor. If he opts into it, he will be an expensive commitment during his age-36 season in 2025-26.

Oh dear

Spoiler:

how stupid can you be to give a 36 year old a big long term deal. Like actually something is structurally wrong with his brain. Maybe the neurons aren't all firing. I really try not to lose composure when it comes to this team but this is just ridiculous if true. Just gonna wait for Gambo to say something

What this screams to me is that Ishbia is still very prideful, and his hubris from being wealthy won't yet allow him to be honest and only admit his failures in these decisions that have turned out so badly for us. He'd rather desperately double down and try to cover up those egregious mistakes by swapping Beal for Butler. And with the hopes that Butler could help him sell our fanbase on an "all-in" premise for at least one more year! But the silver lining in this for us is that with Butler (at least) there wouldn't be any "no trade" clause and we could trade him if we chose to next summer, which we couldn't do with Beal. Ishbias' hoping that the stated intent to give him his full deal will influence Butler to force his way here.

But the irony is that Beals' "no trade" clause will likely prevent this from ever happening anyways, as no team will be likely to take Beal back under those conditions, and Miami doesn't want him. And that's on top of Beal actually ALSO HAVING TO AGREE with wherever we'd plan on sending him. It's just not gonna happen at all. This reeks of a desperately futile last attempt to pivot and extend this "all in" delusion rather than just manning up and owning up to his mistakes.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Watch on YouTube

I don't know about contenders! We'd likely at best still be a play-in team with 1st-2nd round elimination potential. However, at least Butler wouldn't be carrying a "no trade clause" in any deal we'd offer him (HOPEFULLY)!!!!

[bwgood77]

Soon Butler can laugh with KD and Book at the end of blowout losses muttering under their breath "how long do you think Ishbia will keep paying us...hahahhahah"

[mkot]

I do still kind of believe if we were completely healthy, with all 3 of the big guns, Royce, Tyus, Grayson, etc, we would have a chance to get to the 4 or 5 or 6 seed. We really don't have that much worse of a record than last year.

Looking at the standing now, after OKC every contender is struggling right now Dallas has injuries and suspensions, Memphis can't stay healthy, Houston is up and down, Lakers relies too much on the 40yrs old LeBron and injury prone AD who's been inconsistent so they will be up and down too.

After the Sixers game tomorrow, our January schedule looks like this:

@ Charlotte
vs Atlanta
vs Utah
vs Charlotte
@ Atlanta
@ Washington
@ Detroit
@ Cleveland
@ Brooklyn
vs Washington
vs LA Clips
vs Minnesota
@ Golden State

This will be the easiest month any team can get and before the deadline too. On paper we should go 10-3 but if we can go 8-5 that might be enough to get us to the 5 seed

Yeah, I mentioned our schedule is easier, and yes, all teams ahead of us have problems, but Memphis has done very well despite missing Ja like half of the games, Smart most of them, and Edey many of them. Dallas does have serious injuries, but who knows with them? The problem is that we would have to leapfrog so many teams. It's unlikely they all do poorly because there will be many games vs each other.

We will have to go on a winning streak and that will have to give us confidence over the final couple of months. I know we also have Portland b2b at the beginning of Feb.

Kawhi is back for the Clips too.....for now. But I am not sure how on paper we should go 10-3. Atlanta and Detroit have better records than us (and Atlanta has gotten better recently). Than Cleveland, LA, Minn and GS all have better records. I assume you would expect us to beat Atl twice and Detroit along with I suppose maybe Minnesota.

I could really count 2 auto lost

@ Charlotte
vs Atlanta
vs Utah
vs Charlotte
@ Atlanta
@ Washington
@ Detroit
@ Cleveland (L)
@ Brooklyn
vs Washington
vs LA Clips
vs Minnesota (L)
@ Golden State

Even then Minnesota is struggling as we all knew so who knows. Atlanta is good, but they only have one Dyson Daniel, we should be able to out-gun them if we play our best, and if we do best case scenario is 10-3.

Every team has a star now who can go off so we can easily lose to Utah or Washington, but if we go .500 in this run trade KD and Book beofre the deadline and keep Beal as our tank commander.

[bwgood77]

Watch on YouTube

I don't know about contenders! We'd likely at best still be a play-in team with 1st-2nd round elimination potential. However, at least Butler wouldn't be carrying a "no trade clause" in any deal we'd offer him (HOPEFULLY)!!!!

It's funny so many people mention the NTC as a big deal, as if without it he would suddenly have great trade value. I mean, yeah, it sucks if he shut down a deal. Personally I don't even think he'd shut down a deal with Miami if they wanted him and the Suns didn't. Why would you? But they don't want him.

I think the same goes for other older teams, like the LA teams, etc. But people are unlikely to want him.

[bwgood77]

.

Question for you being the cap expert. If we did decide to trade Book or KD, for picks and prospects, how would the 2nd apron rules come into effect? It seems like we could definitely take back less, but I don't know if other teams can take back more. I guess they may have different rules, like the 125% rule or something? I imagine not a ton of teams have space to absorb extra salary, particularly the competitive ones that might trade for them.

I know this is all moot because Ishbia thinks we are contenders and that 28 teams would trade their rosters for ours, but just for **** and giggles, I'd like to know.

[Calvin Klein]

Getting Butler will only make the inevitable last longer. Stupidity all around.

Very true perhaps! UNLESS we actually had the intent to get Butler and then not actually extend/ resign him just to get off of Beals' "no trade" clause. But even if we did give him the offer he'd be seeking, the key here would be that at least with Butler, he wouldn't have the no-trade clause, and we could look to trade him as soon as the following season for whatever. But the key here would be to get off of Beals' no-trade clause (killer provision) in the interest of claiming some modicum of cap flexibility under the 2nd apron potentially??

Ultimately, I believe this could be why we're pursuing Butler so aggressively, BUT are unwilling to hand over our 2031 1st in a deal. Because we'd anticipate possibly starting a rebuild in a year or two and might really regret not holding onto that pick as we bottom out! The irony is that Riley is much smarter/accomplished than anyone we have in our front office, and anticipates this too. Which is why he refuses to take back Beals' contract salary and "no trade" clause." Our best bet with Beal (just to get off of his contract) would be to honestly.....................

- Trade Tyus Jones for a first if at all possible (I believe it is)!!!!
- Trade Allen or O'neale for another decent 1st or multiple 2nds.
- Trade Bol for another 2nd or two (if possible).
-Trade Okogie for a 2nd or two (if possible).

And then package these to a team with multiple 1sts to get 1-2 firsts back. And then package those picks and our 2031 1st to a team like the Lakers, Golden State, Sacramento, or whatever team he'd be open to being traded to, and then move on from him if at all possible! In the meantime, I'd absolutely go to him and let him know that because of our continuing struggles and the redundancy of both he and Booker being the same positional players on the court/ all being ball-dominant players and needing the ball to be effective, I'm moving him to the bench as our super 6th man scorer. And under the premise of balancing out the roster better. But also knowing that he really won't want this, and hoping that it'll pressure him/ influence him to become open to being traded elsewhere wherein he can be featured more as a primary option, which he can't be here under our current roster construction.

*** IF we still can't find an amenable trade for him, then we DIRECTLY let him know that we just can't contend competitively under these conditions and will begin our rebuild (for which he won't want to stay anyways) and he's welcome to waive his no-trade clause to give us more options to find him a suitable team to be traded to. The above-listed players we traded away, we'll use those assets towards our rebuild, or towards other trades, etc.

You're giving the cokehead too much credit here.

[bullsaficianado]

I think a trade that makes sense for Heat for Suns to get Butler is New Orleans wanting Beal.

Phoenix: Butler
Pelicans: Beal, future 2nd round pick from Suns
Heat: Ingram, Jones, 2031 1st round pick from Suns

I doubt Beal wants New Orleans.

[dremill24]

.

Question for you being the cap expert. If we did decide to trade Book or KD, for picks and prospects, how would the 2nd apron rules come into effect? It seems like we could definitely take back less, but I don't know if other teams can take back more. I guess they may have different rules, like the 125% rule or something? I imagine not a ton of teams have space to absorb extra salary, particularly the competitive ones that might trade for them.

I know this is all moot because Ishbia thinks we are contenders and that 28 teams would trade their rosters for ours, but just for **** and giggles, I'd like to know.

Its tough. It depends on who you're trading with. Yes, you can always take back less money than you send out. But its hard for teams to take back more to make that happen. 1st apron teams cant take back additional salary either (which I find excessive), so getting creative with another non-apron team and/or leveraging trade exceptions to get around it is helpful.

Teams like OKC, Orlando, Houston, Memphis, Cleveland, Dallas are some of the best teams that are below any apron. But even so, if you add salary in a trade, you're hard capped at that 1st apron and most of these teams arent THAT far below so theres a limit on how much extra they can take.

Teams already above one of the aprons are DEN, LAL, MIA, NY, PHI, BOS, MIN, MIL, PHX.

Teams below the aprons have a wider net on how much extra salary they can take on (changes depending on how much they're sending out) based on that rule but the hard cap limits it practically.

The simplest way to make math work in a lot of cases is to add another team who is well below the tax, but that obviously brings in complications of making it worthwhile for that team to participate.

The short answer unfortunately is it depends on who you're dealing with. Is there something more specific you are looking for?

[JDJ26]

Ishbia is probably doing the Lance Vance dance if he somehow gets Jimmy Butler on the Suns

[youtube

Watch on YouTube

][/youtube]

[dremill24]

Watch on YouTube

I don't know about contenders! We'd likely at best still be a play-in team with 1st-2nd round elimination potential. However, at least Butler wouldn't be carrying a "no trade clause" in any deal we'd offer him (HOPEFULLY)!!!!

It's funny so many people mention the NTC as a big deal, as if without it he would suddenly have great trade value. I mean, yeah, it sucks if he shut down a deal. Personally I don't even think he'd shut down a deal with Miami if they wanted him and the Suns didn't. Why would you? But they don't want him.

I think the same goes for other older teams, like the LA teams, etc. But people are unlikely to want him.

I think it might be harder to find a team who would really take him than a place he'd waive his NTC to go to tbh. If theres one thing the new front office has shown, its an ability to convince players to do things even when it seems far-fetched. Hopefully hes able to tune out noise, but fans/media are hating on him pretty hard so maybe that would be motivation to be open to a move. But we could have said that when he was in Washington for years and he was fine staying for quite a while. I thought i saw somewhere (could be wrong) that he just moved his family here this season, so that could be additional ammo to want to stay, regardless of on-court results. Guys generally want to win, all other things equal, but sometimes they're just humans and comfortable where they are at.

Teams that would actually want him is almost tougher IMO. I would have said maybe LAL before the season, but with the emergence of Reaves and their bad defense, I dont think they'd be too interested. Maybe Miami before too, but Herro might just be better at this point and they've been mediocre enough to want cap flexibility. Orlando might make some on-court sense but their books are about to get crazy expensive so I dunno how feasible his contract is. He might honestly help OKC but not at the salary he has. Maybe theres a team that wants to just take him on to get our '31 1st while sending back a bunch of other bad money (like those Portland proposals) but thats probly a stretch too.

Denver has been rumored to want LaVine...maybe Beal works there?

[garrick]

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2025/1/5/24335330/nba-10-day-contracts-phoenix-suns-free-agent-options-g-league-roster-depth?fbclid=IwY2xjawHn_0pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdJubUDrKs1TATe-05xVvfxTHKQaGTm4fQ2eDFi_okjVwR0x0EQ8QAebqg_aem_bcOvZdspsXy-Atrnf1XgLA

GoK some possible 10-day contracts that JJ should be looking at although with his track record, he is likely fiddling his thumbs in his plush office.

Great article! Thanks for sharing it man. :thumbs-up:

Not that I believe any specific 10-day contracts would actually change our fortunes or imminent trajectory. But of this list, I'd absolutely prioritize:

-Ibou Badji - Mobile shot-blocking center.
- Reggie Perry- strong, rugged, big-bodied rebounding versatile power Forward. Kind of a dollar-store version of Bam Adebayo.
- Robert Covington. Known commodity and still a fairly versatile defender. But what I'm really hoping for as far as low-end trades go, I'd look to trade D Lee/ Plumlee/2nds to LAC for Kai Jones and Bamba alternatively.

Yeah I am not fond of Covington but he would actually be someone we need over someone like D.Lee who just hasn't been great coming back from injury.

We need big shot blocking and rebounding bodies if nothing else than for 6 fouls to use on opposing enters since it seems like Plumlee is washed at age 35 and just doesn't have it anymore. Wish we had him a couple seasons ago and his best days are behind him now sadly.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Watch on YouTube

I don't know about contenders! We'd likely at best still be a play-in team with 1st-2nd round elimination potential. However, at least Butler wouldn't be carrying a "no trade clause" in any deal we'd offer him (HOPEFULLY)!!!!

It's funny so many people mention the NTC as a big deal, as if without it he would suddenly have great trade value. I mean, yeah, it sucks if he shut down a deal. Personally I don't even think he'd shut down a deal with Miami if they wanted him and the Suns didn't. Why would you? But they don't want him.

I think the same goes for other older teams, like the LA teams, etc. But people are unlikely to want him.

It actually is a big deal in that we become severely limited as to the potential teams we could trade him to (even already not having greater even good trade value because Beal would have to actually approve a deal. So IF for example there was a team that was really struggling to be competitive and attract any big names but was willing to take Beal because of those conditions, They might be willing to take Beal in a trade, BUT Beal if h doesn't want to go there, we couldn't even do the deal.

So there could be some legitimate options for us to move him in a trade, but we can't even do those deals BECAUSE he again could just kill the trade regardless of a team's potential interest. This is currently why teams have stated they aren't willing to even trade for Beal. Because they'd be stuck with him just like we are now. all because apart from his trade value, the receiving team couldn't trade him or move off of him without him agreeing. In that context, and given his albatross salary in this 2nd apron restricted climate, that provision is only exacerbated making his contract the worst in the NBA. I'm not completely opposed to riding out his deal IF we were willing to trade BOTH Booker and KD towards a rebuild before their values only depreciate even further. But Beals' "NO TRADE CLAUSE" is legitimately a very big deal because he'll be able to dictate whether he's traded or not regardless of mutual interest.