Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Vampirate]

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

1. Bargs and really Derozan were worse. we don't think Derozan was worse simply because we added Lowry, but had we not got lowry, things look much worse let's be honest.

2. In order for Barnes to be one of the best Raptors of all time he needs at least regular season success (multiple 50+ win seasons)

3. Barnes is not really a Jack of all Trades, his 3 point shot isn't there.

4. In order to be a true star in this league you also can't be a master of one, you have to be a master of many. (also Derozan wasn't really a master of the midrange till much later). Putting a ceiling or floor on Barnes right now isn't wise on what he's going to be 3-5 years from now as we won't know. He has his flaws no doubt, but what you say now, may not be what you're saying then.

5. It's a part of his personality but fair point, however if it leads to wins you'll be embracing it.

6. He's not that versatile defensively, a really defensive versatile defender is Bam who can defend the perimeter, Barnes isn't that.

Barnes is very good as the 2nd wave of defense.

As for the whole 'Master of None' he strength was always his short game, it appears he trying to expand that strength out to the 10-16 feet area now. So far so good.

1) While I disagree we built around DeMar, the reasons I gave for building around Scottie were not really there with DeMar. He indeed proved that he was easy to built around and with. Maybe Scottie will, too, but at least early in his career DeMar was a head down blue collar worker that had been humbled by his college experience and went to his USC coach to ask how to play.

2) Agree. He can do this with better players than him, as well.

3) His 3PT shot is there enough that he is a master of none. A low % isn't a no %, if you get what I'm saying.

4) Okay but right now we're talking about year 4. I'm not going to put a ceiling on him, either, but expressing in a post why it's a challenge to create an environment around him reaching that ceiling.

5) I said as much in the paragraph you decided not to quote.

6) Disagree. Bam is better, of course, but Scottie is up there with the best.

1. We 100% were building around Derozan as a go to scorer, and it took Derozan 7 years to start averaging at least a 55 TS%, Barnes has been averaging that (sophomore season aside) since he got into the league.

Derozan on Season 3 scored 16.7 PPG on a 50.3 TS%, Barnes on Season 3 scored 19.9 PPG on 56.6 TS%.
We didn't start to truly win until we got Lowry and Derozan was still taking the bulk of the shots.

Projecting forwards, it's clear Barnes is looking like the superior player, both defensively and offensively. (not saying offensively is guaranteed to happen, but Barnes has better physical tools) and looks to be a better 3P shooter.


2. Just draft BPA and go on from there, Barnes + Top 5 pick is the real core here, it doesn't matter where you'd put Barnes here if he's better or worse than that pick.

3. I'd say Barnes would be a jack of all trades with the 3 if the 3 got to 33% ish, essentially respectable. Under 30% and it's just awful. Essentially to me a jack of all trades does everything to at least a decent level. 29% isn't decent.

4. His scoring due to the lack of 3 is a large reason why. If he was shooting close to 32-34% from 3 we'd be singing a different tune because his PPG would be closer to 22 PPG.

5. Fair enough.

6. Bam is way more portable defensively because you can put him anywhere defensively and he can succeed. Barnes will struggle laterally especially against quicker players on the perimiter.

[canz55]

I think the only thing that is certain at this point is that he won't be "THAT guy".

With respect, you're simply not in a position to definitively claim if Scottie is THAT guy or not.

At best this thread is reactionary based on a season that has amounted to nothing worthy of note. Replace Scottie with literally any other player his age in the NBA of your choosing with the same number of missed games and we'd be more or less where we are now i.e rebuilding.

Lamelo is playing on a team going absolutely nowhere and most people here would take him over Barnes in a heartbeat because they know he's THAT guy.

Most people don't work in professional basketball and likely never will.

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

[Raps in 4]

Who cares about that, I care about talent.

Demar being a professional’s professional doesn’t mean crap when he shat himself in every single playoff series. Him being serious and stoic didn’t save him from being worst playoff dropper in NBA history according to advance numbers.

We need high end talent. Who cares if they dance or not. Scottie needs to figure out who he wants to be as an NBA player. That’s what I’m concerned with.

That dance was a little cringe but I agree it doesn't matter in the long run. They are trying to place more emphasis on the joy of basketball with this team because they think it will unlock something for Scottie. There was a lot of talk about how miserable he was in that first rough season when we were losing. I think bringing in IQ and Dick was also geared in that direction. This team is still so young and immature, we need to be patient. While you can't have it both ways - tank and success - this is the first time I've ever seen a team come close. I still believe Scottie has the talent to dominate most matchups (moreso than Kyle or DeMar) and he can make tough shots in crunch time. We won't really know until this team is ready to actually compete though.

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

And, the dance didn't bother me at all. It's been a part of his gameplay since the beginning, and it is immature but I can see how, on a winning team, his antics will get the better of other teams and their fanbases, much like Lance Stephenson. A more talented Lance Stephenson is an interesting player to have in your core, and I will take that. What is required, though, is a lot of supporting parts that can keep him in check and allow him to be him. I compare it to KG and Ben Wallace getting the most out of Rasheed Wallace, or Al Horford getting the most out of Josh Smith. This year, if we don't draft someone that can take Scottie's keys, it'll be tough to build a consistent winner, imo.

I think there is a very good chance that Scottie ends up being a better player than DeMar and Bosh, just by virtue of him playing defence (neither of those guys were efficient as first options, nor were they good playmalers with us, and they were sieves on defence). I think he might end up better than Pascal too who also wasn't particularly efficient as a scorer and who stopped playing defence once he became the first scoring option.

[ATLTimekeeper]

That dance was a little cringe but I agree it doesn't matter in the long run. They are trying to place more emphasis on the joy of basketball with this team because they think it will unlock something for Scottie. There was a lot of talk about how miserable he was in that first rough season when we were losing. I think bringing in IQ and Dick was also geared in that direction. This team is still so young and immature, we need to be patient. While you can't have it both ways - tank and success - this is the first time I've ever seen a team come close. I still believe Scottie has the talent to dominate most matchups (moreso than Kyle or DeMar) and he can make tough shots in crunch time. We won't really know until this team is ready to actually compete though.

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

And, the dance didn't bother me at all. It's been a part of his gameplay since the beginning, and it is immature but I can see how, on a winning team, his antics will get the better of other teams and their fanbases, much like Lance Stephenson. A more talented Lance Stephenson is an interesting player to have in your core, and I will take that. What is required, though, is a lot of supporting parts that can keep him in check and allow him to be him. I compare it to KG and Ben Wallace getting the most out of Rasheed Wallace, or Al Horford getting the most out of Josh Smith. This year, if we don't draft someone that can take Scottie's keys, it'll be tough to build a consistent winner, imo.

I think there is a very good chance that Scottie ends up being a better player than DeMar and Bosh, just by virtue of playing defence (neither of those guys were very efficient as first options, and they were sieves on defence).

I agree, but Bosh did become a great defender in Miami as a 5. I'm mostly talking about the challenges in building around him.

[bluerap23]

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

And, the dance didn't bother me at all. It's been a part of his gameplay since the beginning, and it is immature but I can see how, on a winning team, his antics will get the better of other teams and their fanbases, much like Lance Stephenson. A more talented Lance Stephenson is an interesting player to have in your core, and I will take that. What is required, though, is a lot of supporting parts that can keep him in check and allow him to be him. I compare it to KG and Ben Wallace getting the most out of Rasheed Wallace, or Al Horford getting the most out of Josh Smith. This year, if we don't draft someone that can take Scottie's keys, it'll be tough to build a consistent winner, imo.

I think there is a very good chance that Scottie ends up being a better player than DeMar and Bosh, just by virtue of playing defence (neither of those guys were very efficient as first options, and they were sieves on defence).

I agree, but Bosh did become a great defender in Miami as a 5. I'm mostly talking about the challenges in building around him.

He is easy to build around because he can do everything. The only argument for being a challenge to build around is that he doesn't shoot the 3 very well yet. But I actually think he is fine as long as he sticks to shooting mostly open catch and shoot 3's.

[PushDaRock]

That dance was a little cringe but I agree it doesn't matter in the long run. They are trying to place more emphasis on the joy of basketball with this team because they think it will unlock something for Scottie. There was a lot of talk about how miserable he was in that first rough season when we were losing. I think bringing in IQ and Dick was also geared in that direction. This team is still so young and immature, we need to be patient. While you can't have it both ways - tank and success - this is the first time I've ever seen a team come close. I still believe Scottie has the talent to dominate most matchups (moreso than Kyle or DeMar) and he can make tough shots in crunch time. We won't really know until this team is ready to actually compete though.

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

And, the dance didn't bother me at all. It's been a part of his gameplay since the beginning, and it is immature but I can see how, on a winning team, his antics will get the better of other teams and their fanbases, much like Lance Stephenson. A more talented Lance Stephenson is an interesting player to have in your core, and I will take that. What is required, though, is a lot of supporting parts that can keep him in check and allow him to be him. I compare it to KG and Ben Wallace getting the most out of Rasheed Wallace, or Al Horford getting the most out of Josh Smith. This year, if we don't draft someone that can take Scottie's keys, it'll be tough to build a consistent winner, imo.

I think there is a very good chance that Scottie ends up being a better player than DeMar and Bosh, just by virtue of him playing defence (neither of those guys were efficient as first options, nor were they good playmalers with us, and they were sieves on defence). I think he might end up better than Pascal too who also wasn't particularly efficient as a scorer and who stopped playing defence once he became the first scoring option.

Bosh is an 11 time AS, I would be surprised if Scottie was able to eclipse that. Bosh was between 57-59 TS% as a first option with us, that was really efficient compared to league average at the time. Bosh was a really good defender in Miami and he was on some decent defensive teams here as well. People probably just remember that last year here where we were the worst defense in the league which clouds their judgement a bit.

[Raps in 4]

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

And, the dance didn't bother me at all. It's been a part of his gameplay since the beginning, and it is immature but I can see how, on a winning team, his antics will get the better of other teams and their fanbases, much like Lance Stephenson. A more talented Lance Stephenson is an interesting player to have in your core, and I will take that. What is required, though, is a lot of supporting parts that can keep him in check and allow him to be him. I compare it to KG and Ben Wallace getting the most out of Rasheed Wallace, or Al Horford getting the most out of Josh Smith. This year, if we don't draft someone that can take Scottie's keys, it'll be tough to build a consistent winner, imo.

I think there is a very good chance that Scottie ends up being a better player than DeMar and Bosh, just by virtue of playing defence (neither of those guys were very efficient as first options, and they were sieves on defence).

I agree, but Bosh did become a great defender in Miami as a 5. I'm mostly talking about the challenges in building around him.

I agree that it's looking like he won't ever be a player worth building around, but that's why we're tanking right now.

[Scase]

I don't even know I would call a fadeaway turnaround jump shot is a good shot.

Same as DeRozan on shooting his long 2 and back then people claimed those are efficient shots, which can be disappeared in the playoffs, no?

Not a good shot when compared to a set shot for sure, but Scottie is 6'9 with a high release point on his shot, it would be hard to block even for someone like Wemby. The key is him hitting it at a good clip, which he will need to practice, and why I'm so against him taking so many ill advised 3's.

I think where he's taking them is starting to matter more than how he's taking them.

Through last season and this season.



I think he's spreading his three point shots around too much.

What do you make of this?

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it, and the middle image is 24-25. I would say he's just worse from everywhere on the floor except under the basket and the bottom right mid range.

The volume/ratio looks largely unchanged, there just isn't as much data due to the sample size, the weighting all looks pretty similar to last year.

[Vampirate]

Not a good shot when compared to a set shot for sure, but Scottie is 6'9 with a high release point on his shot, it would be hard to block even for someone like Wemby. The key is him hitting it at a good clip, which he will need to practice, and why I'm so against him taking so many ill advised 3's.

I think where he's taking them is starting to matter more than how he's taking them.

Through last season and this season.



I think he's spreading his three point shots around too much.

What do you make of this?

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it, and the middle image is 24-25. I would say he's just worse from everywhere on the floor except under the basket and the bottom right mid range.

The volume/ratio looks largely unchanged, there just isn't as much data due to the sample size, the weighting all looks pretty similar to last year.

Well there's a few things to take away, near the FT line last year he shot 41%.4 on about 65 shots, this year he's at about 54.5% on 33 shots. Rough guestimate since I had to use stat muse so there might be a little variance.

ABT Dead Center seems to be where his sweet spot is in shooting 3s. 38.6% on 83 shots% last year, 37.2% on 43 shots this year, again Stat Muse. Not exactly sure which site is more accurate. (note Barnes was shooting ice cold from dead center at the beginning of the year but has since righted the ship, I wonder if his shooting at the 28.9% area will improve (it was 38% the year before).

Regardless there's areas on the 3 he absolutely sucks at (Center Right, or the left side of the picture) 27% last year, 20% this year.

Gradey is the opposite, he's a 44% three point shooter at Dead Center, but a 26.3% on Center left.

[Scase]

I think where he's taking them is starting to matter more than how he's taking them.

Through last season and this season.



I think he's spreading his three point shots around too much.

What do you make of this?

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it, and the middle image is 24-25. I would say he's just worse from everywhere on the floor except under the basket and the bottom right mid range.

The volume/ratio looks largely unchanged, there just isn't as much data due to the sample size, the weighting all looks pretty similar to last year.

Well there's a few things to take away, near the FT line last year he shot 41%.4 on about 65 shots, this year he's at about 54.5% on 33 shots. Rough guestimate since I had to use stat muse so there might be a little variance.

ABT Dead Center seems to be where his sweet spot is in shooting 3s. 38.6% on 83 shots% last year, 37.2% on 43 shots this year, again Stat Muse. Not exactly sure which site is more accurate. (note Barnes was shooting ice cold from dead center at the beginning of the year but has since righted the ship, I wonder if his shooting at the 28.9% area will improve (it was 38% the year before).

Regardless there's areas on the 3 he absolutely sucks at (Center Right, or the left side of the picture) 27% last year, 20% this year.

Gradey is the opposite, he's a 44% three point shooter at Dead Center, but a 26.3% on Center left.

His corner shooting (one corner at least) is where he should be taking most of his 3's. It also puts him closest to the basket, and furthest from help defenders, meaning he can have the best chance to make it to the rim with less trouble. It's basically a double whammy, he either hits the 3 at a good clip (43.5%), or he drives and gets better looks in the mid range.

His centre ATB shots were his second best shots, but still substantially worse. I'm alright with him taking some of those, but realistically he should be playing from about 16ft in, that will open up his entire game. They sag off of him at the 3 so he can't get an easy spot in the MR, leaving him more open shots, or the cover him tight and he can bully them to the basket/open up passing lanes. It just offers him way more opportunities to positively affect the offence than jacking up 3s.

Even if he was shooting 40% up top, he still doesn't have the dribble drive game/foot speed to punish defenders that are tight on him. We gotta play him to his strengths, not try and force things that don't exist. We don't need a 6'9 3pt shooter who doesn't have the athletic ability to punish defences when they take that shot away.

His 3pt shooting needs to be respectable, that's it. Keep a defence honest, no more, no less.

[Vampirate]

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it, and the middle image is 24-25. I would say he's just worse from everywhere on the floor except under the basket and the bottom right mid range.

The volume/ratio looks largely unchanged, there just isn't as much data due to the sample size, the weighting all looks pretty similar to last year.

Well there's a few things to take away, near the FT line last year he shot 41%.4 on about 65 shots, this year he's at about 54.5% on 33 shots. Rough guestimate since I had to use stat muse so there might be a little variance.

ABT Dead Center seems to be where his sweet spot is in shooting 3s. 38.6% on 83 shots% last year, 37.2% on 43 shots this year, again Stat Muse. Not exactly sure which site is more accurate. (note Barnes was shooting ice cold from dead center at the beginning of the year but has since righted the ship, I wonder if his shooting at the 28.9% area will improve (it was 38% the year before).

Regardless there's areas on the 3 he absolutely sucks at (Center Right, or the left side of the picture) 27% last year, 20% this year.

Gradey is the opposite, he's a 44% three point shooter at Dead Center, but a 26.3% on Center left.

His corner shooting (one corner at least) is where he should be taking most of his 3's. It also puts him closest to the basket, and furthest from help defenders, meaning he can have the best chance to make it to the rim with less trouble. It's basically a double whammy, he either hits the 3 at a good clip (43.5%), or he drives and gets better looks in the mid range.

His centre ATB shots were his second best shots, but still substantially worse. I'm alright with him taking some of those, but realistically he should be playing from about 16ft in, that will open up his entire game. They sag off of him at the 3 so he can't get an easy spot in the MR, leaving him more open shots, or the cover him tight and he can bully them to the basket/open up passing lanes. It just offers him way more opportunities to positively affect the offence than jacking up 3s.

Even if he was shooting 40% up top, he still doesn't have the dribble drive game/foot speed to punish defenders that are tight on him. We gotta play him to his strengths, not try and force things that don't exist. We don't need a 6'9 3pt shooter who doesn't have the athletic ability to punish defences when they take that shot away.

His 3pt shooting needs to be respectable, that's it. Keep a defence honest, no more, no less.

I disagree, his ABT dead center is where he should be shooting primarily (for his 3s), mostly because it takes advantage of his vision and passing. If he's stuck in the corner there's only so much he can see of the entire field, and passing angles are worse. What he actually needs to do is lower his ABT 3s on the right (and possibly on the left if they don't improve).

Another reason why I want him operating there is if he breaks the first offense is I think it put's him in his wheelhouse faster and easier (FT area).

I'd rather we not box him in with an Abaji role. (just the corner 3)

There's no way around this, he needs to beat his defender (it doesn't have to be to the hoop, could be a side step move) at the 3 point line AND he needs to sink the shots. His strengths as is are just not good enough. There's been times when he's done it, but he needs to do it consistently, AND hit the shot.

As for the bolded, I agree though the season isn't over though (keep in mind he was shooting under 20% from 3 earlier so let's see if his Dead Center shooting improves even more or regresses).

I'm more or less saying he's more than a corner 3 point shooter (imo anyways).

Anyways we all bitch here and there, but it's funny as ultimately we have no say.

[brownbobcat]

I think Scottie is maybe the worst type of player we've ever built around, and I concede that he's going to be one of the best Raptors of all time when all is said and done. One, because his game is a master-of-none style, where his strength is actually portability and not foundational. Two, because his personality is immature. Three, because his effort is inconsistent. Four, because his best strength is defensive versatility. Tagging on a scoring/creation burden is going to impact his energy on the defensive end.

1. Bargs and really Derozan were worse. we don't think Derozan was worse simply because we added Lowry, but had we not got lowry, things look much worse let's be honest.

2. In order for Barnes to be one of the best Raptors of all time he needs at least regular season success (multiple 50+ win seasons)

3. Barnes is not really a Jack of all Trades, his 3 point shot isn't there.

4. In order to be a true star in this league you also can't be a master of one, you have to be a master of many. (also Derozan wasn't really a master of the midrange till much later). Putting a ceiling or floor on Barnes right now isn't wise on what he's going to be 3-5 years from now as we won't know. He has his flaws no doubt, but what you say now, may not be what you're saying then.

5. It's a part of his personality but fair point, however if it leads to wins you'll be embracing it.

6. He's not that versatile defensively, a really defensive versatile defender is Bam who can defend the perimeter, Barnes isn't that.

Barnes is very good as the 2nd wave of defense.


As for the whole 'Master of None' he strength was always his short game, it appears he trying to expand that strength out to the 10-16 feet area now. So far so good.

I think the bolded is very accurate actually. Scottie has many flaws, but it's also exacerbated because he's trying a lot of different things. It's almost going to be a boom-or-bust type scenario because you can see the skill level doesn't come anywhere close to matching what he's trying. The handle is improving, but still stiff. Outside jumper is janky, footwork all over the place, passes are sloppy. It doesn't line up with being a ball-dominant #1 option who shoots above-break 3s.

And yet, the potential is alluring. The size is there and so is the body, the vision, the touch - things that are difficult to teach. Yes, it would be a lot more encouraging if his motor was more consistent and if he were more mature (I get that he's only 23)

Darko already said it best, actually:

"If you're really good at one thing in the NBA, you gonna find your contract, you gonna survive in this league.

If you're really good at two things, you are a heck of a player. If you're really good at three things – you are an All-Star. If you think you are really good at four things, you're probably out of the league and playing in Europe.

You cannot be extremely good at everything. That's a problem I'm having because he's [Barnes] good at multiple things. We have to find 2 or 3 of those things that he's gonna really take a jump to the next level and become an All-Star player, which I believe he is."

[bluerap23]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

[PushDaRock]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

[bluerap23]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Yes Kyle was better at those 3 things. Scottie also has great bbiq and had shown flashes of good motor.

Scottie is better at almost everything else though. Not saying they are the same player. That is obviously not the case. What I am saying is that they project to have similar overall outcomes. In fact Scottie is way ahead of Kyle based on age and experience. He’s basically at the same level Kyle was in Kyle’s 3rd raptor season when he was 28.

Scottie with Motor is an absolute beast. I think we will see it when the team is competitive. We will need another star next to him though (which is true of all stars in todays nba).

[raptorforlife88]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Important to note Kyle also had an annoying personality that grated on people for years till he matured (some).

But the rest is true, Kyle was going to give every single bit of himself on the court, that's why someone with his physical limitations had such immense value. I'm skeptical now that Barnes hits Kyle's peak (impact stats had him as a top 10-15 player). This is the guy who took charges at the all-star game. I'll always remember him raising the ceilings of bench units, and the time he dragged the team to a comeback win against the Mavs. Those are the examples of a guy with an endless motor. Haven't seen that from Scottie yet.

[PushDaRock]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Yes Kyle was better at those 3 things. Scottie also has great bbiq and had shown flashes of good motor.

Scottie is better at almost everything else though. Not saying they are the same player. That is obviously not the case. What I am saying is that they project to have similar overall outcomes. In fact Scottie is way ahead of Kyle based on age and experience. He’s basically at the same level Kyle was in Kyle’s 3rd raptor season when he was 28.

Scottie with Motor is an absolute beast. I think we will see it when the team is competitive. We will need another star next to him though (which is true of all stars in todays nba).

Lowry's progression is not typical, it was Nash like. Expecting Scottie to take a similar leap at some point seems rather optimistic considering Scottie already came in and won ROY.

Scottie is not better at almost everything else. Lowry was the better defender at his position, better ball handler and driver, better FT shooter as well.

I don't think their Basketball IQ's are even close either right now. Scottie can read the D fairly well in terms of the right pass to make but he's not manipulating the D, creating many advantages and he isn't reading the game the way Lowry is in terms of giving the team what it needs at the right time. Lowry was incredible at doing that knowing when the team needed him to score, get to the FT line to slow the game down, when to get his teammates involved or when they needed a big defensive play like a charge to give them energy.

[PushDaRock]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Important to note Kyle also had an annoying personality that grated on people for years till he matured (some).

But the rest is true, Kyle was going to give every single bit of himself on the court, that's why someone with his physical limitations had such immense value. I'm skeptical now that Barnes hits Kyle's peak (impact stats had him as a top 10-15 player). This is the guy who took charges at the all-star game. I'll always remember him raising the ceilings of bench units, and the time he dragged the team to a comeback win against the Mavs. Those are the examples of a guy with an endless motor. Haven't seen that from Scottie yet.

Lowry played with a chip on his shoulder and rubbed people the wrong way, it took some time for him to mature in becoming a leader but the motor and compete level were never in question.

Scottie kind of has the opposite problem, seems well liked by his teammates but the motor is on and off. The body language where he sulks and complains about calls or when things aren't going his way vs clapping and energetic when he makes a few shots but we are still down 20 is not a good look imo.

[RoteSchroder]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Yes Kyle was better at those 3 things. Scottie also has great bbiq and had shown flashes of good motor.

Scottie is better at almost everything else though. Not saying they are the same player. That is obviously not the case. What I am saying is that they project to have similar overall outcomes. In fact Scottie is way ahead of Kyle based on age and experience. He’s basically at the same level Kyle was in Kyle’s 3rd raptor season when he was 28.

Scottie with Motor is an absolute beast. I think we will see it when the team is competitive. We will need another star next to him though (which is true of all stars in todays nba).

Lowry’s better at taking care of the ball, has better handles, better at driving past his man and getting to the basket

Scottie doesn’t have a particular skill that stands out or sets him apart. He’s just ok at a lot of things. Lowry had that bulldog aggressiveness and driving ability from the start, then added an elite 3 point shot while being solid on D.

Scottie needs to look for 1-2 skills that he can be elite at.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Yes Kyle was better at those 3 things. Scottie also has great bbiq and had shown flashes of good motor.

Scottie is better at almost everything else though. Not saying they are the same player. That is obviously not the case. What I am saying is that they project to have similar overall outcomes. In fact Scottie is way ahead of Kyle based on age and experience. He’s basically at the same level Kyle was in Kyle’s 3rd raptor season when he was 28.

Scottie with Motor is an absolute beast. I think we will see it when the team is competitive. We will need another star next to him though (which is true of all stars in todays nba).

A motor is always on. That's what it means.

Kyle was a scoring point guard first and foremost. Scottie has been a good role player on very strong teams, who has ambitions of playing like Magic Johnson. Not the same thing.