2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 2)

[DrModesty]

Not only has this win steak been with no Chet. It has conincided with Jdub having also hit the first extended slump of his career.

Shai hard carrying the offense with 33ppg on 66.4% TS

[Special_Puppy]

[tweet][/tweet]

Jokic would legit win 75 games with team and waltz to the title.

It’s not even close. Jokic is just on a different level.


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Last year Denver had KCP and Murray had the best season of his career, and finshed behind the Thunder.
SGA is good, really good, if anything, his supporting cast is overated offensively, he's having am insane carry job.

Denver and OKC finished with the same amount of wins last season

[Special_Puppy]

Last year Denver had KCP and Murray had the best season of his career, and finshed behind the Thunder.
SGA is good, really good, if anything, his supporting cast is overated offensively, he's having am insane carry job.

What does even mean? OKCs supporting cast is magnitudes above Denver p. It isn’t even a comparison. Denver is playing guys that are barely NBA players that Jokic makes look serviceable.

SGA is playing with a team with an all time great supporting cast. Honestly don’t even think it makes sense to go down the supporting cast bc it’s not even close. SGA is on a historically great defensive team, with great shooter, role players and another budding star. That’s about as good as it gets. He should be expected to at least make the Finals this year.

At some point you have to factor in team strength. I don’t think SGA has separated himself from Luka and is worse than Jokic. Prob worse than Giannis too. Right now Jokic is playing better than some of the greatest players to ever touch a ball. I don’t think SGA is there..he’s just on an insanely stacked team that makes hides all his weaknesses.

This is such nonsense bait lol. Hartenstein was out 1 months , Chet out 2 months , third string C was out for 3 months... 2 weeks with no C on the roster. Caruso has been in and out the team. It hasn't mattered at all. He has a lot of defensive help but he's single handedly lifting that offence. Jokic is the best player in the world but the difference in his and Shai's play is not great enough to overcome a 15-20 win difference. Jokic getting the MVP with 48 wins over Shai again beating him out to wins but this time beating him by that many would be absurd.

I won't even talk about Giannis and Luka comments. Giannis may be better as well but he's not ahead of Shai in this race. As for Luka , Shai has been worlds better this season (just reffering to this season)

The Thunder have a +15.3 net rating right now while the Nuggets have a +3.6 net rating. In your estimation, How much of that difference in net rating is SGA playing better than Jokic this season vs SGA's supporting cast playing better than Jokic's this season?
https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2024-25&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[MaliBrah]

What does even mean? OKCs supporting cast is magnitudes above Denver p. It isn’t even a comparison. Denver is playing guys that are barely NBA players that Jokic makes look serviceable.

SGA is playing with a team with an all time great supporting cast. Honestly don’t even think it makes sense to go down the supporting cast bc it’s not even close. SGA is on a historically great defensive team, with great shooter, role players and another budding star. That’s about as good as it gets. He should be expected to at least make the Finals this year.

At some point you have to factor in team strength. I don’t think SGA has separated himself from Luka and is worse than Jokic. Prob worse than Giannis too. Right now Jokic is playing better than some of the greatest players to ever touch a ball. I don’t think SGA is there..he’s just on an insanely stacked team that makes hides all his weaknesses.

This is such nonsense bait lol. Hartenstein was out 1 months , Chet out 2 months , third string C was out for 3 months... 2 weeks with no C on the roster. Caruso has been in and out the team. It hasn't mattered at all. He has a lot of defensive help but he's single handedly lifting that offence. Jokic is the best player in the world but the difference in his and Shai's play is not great enough to overcome a 15-20 win difference. Jokic getting the MVP with 48 wins over Shai again beating him out to wins but this time beating him by that many would be absurd.

I won't even talk about Giannis and Luka comments. Giannis may be better as well but he's not ahead of Shai in this race. As for Luka , Shai has been worlds better this season (just reffering to this season)

Besides Tatum, does any other star have a better supporting cast than Shai?

So this year's narrative for Jokic is everyone has too much help let's give him another mvp for winning games at a play in rate? (AGAIN)

[ChumboChappati]

Has to be SGA

[Jurassic_Park]

Someone check on Jaqua. I hope he is ok.

[Snake3]

This is such nonsense bait lol. Hartenstein was out 1 months , Chet out 2 months , third string C was out for 3 months... 2 weeks with no C on the roster. Caruso has been in and out the team. It hasn't mattered at all. He has a lot of defensive help but he's single handedly lifting that offence. Jokic is the best player in the world but the difference in his and Shai's play is not great enough to overcome a 15-20 win difference. Jokic getting the MVP with 48 wins over Shai again beating him out to wins but this time beating him by that many would be absurd.

I won't even talk about Giannis and Luka comments. Giannis may be better as well but he's not ahead of Shai in this race. As for Luka , Shai has been worlds better this season (just reffering to this season)

Besides Tatum, does any other star have a better supporting cast than Shai?

So this year's narrative for Jokic is everyone has too much help let's give him another mvp for winning games at a play in rate? (AGAIN)

Dude is flirting with a 30 point triple double while shooting the league's best from the 3pt line. And his team is the worst offensively in the league without him on the court and historically great while he's on the court. With little spacing, with no all-stars, and with AG being out with significant time. It's easy to see why he could be MVP again. And in real sense, he really is the most valuable player. They are legit last or close to last in a bunch of categories without him on the court. If he drags this team to be a top 3 in the West, that's crazy. That's a big case.

And I don't believe this would be the case, but if he actually do average a 30 point legit triple double, that's tough. It'll be an historic season.

SGA got a great case. He is pulling up similar numbers of a MJ. Being a great two way player. He is on par or leading in some advance stats with Jokic and leading in some of them. SGA is also carrying a big offensive load on the squad. This isn't as bad as when D.Rose when he own, because I didn't think he was top 5 player that year. SGA I think is a top 3 player. And he has been carrying OKC offense. SGA has no all-stars either, but very solid role players that could get into the all-nba defensive team. Even if he carry job isn't as impressive as Jokic, it's still an mvp level of performance. He didn't have Chet, and they didn't lose a beat. When I.Hart came, they were still great.

I believe this could be SGA MVP to win. But the argument is that OKC got better role players and Jokic is carrying hard while having historic numbers for Jokic. But SGA been so consistent and playing at a MVP lvl. While he had great defensive role players, he provides them great offense. So, we'll see. Both have a case. I think it's similar to what Luka did last year.

[RRR3]

Murray wasn't good two seasons ago? Especially in the playoffs where it matters most? News to me.

No he was insane two seasons ago but it was two seasons ago.

yeah, he had like 2/5 incredible playoff runs (champuionship season and bubble season) but he hasn't had a great rs yet, not even close.

This is true but he was borderline al-star level last year in the regular season (and then trash in the playoffs, the opposite of his usual M.O. lol). 21.2/6.5 in 31.5 MPG (24.2/7.4 per 36) on 58.6 TS% is good stuff. Definitely the best regular season he's had. I thought he was finally beginning to match his potential but injuries have put a stop to that sadly. He's been quite poor this year scoring the ball.

[RRR3]

How are Jokic stans still insisting he's clearly obviously miles better than SGA when two frequently used impact stats (EPM, LEBRON) say SGA has been more impactful? Are you that obsessed with the box score or just refusing to acknowledge something that doesn't fit your agenda? By no means has Jokic been clearly better than SGA this year, the impact data does not bear it out. That's just a fact, you can be mad about it all you want, but that's what the data says.

[Special_Puppy]

How are Jokic stans still insisting he's clearly obviously miles better than SGA when two frequently used impact stats (EPM, LEBRON) say SGA has been more impactful? Are you that obsessed with the box score or just refusing to acknowledge something that doesn't fit your agenda? By no means has Jokic been clearly better than SGA this year, the impact data does not bear it out. That's just a fact, you can be mad about it all you want, but that's what the data says.

The Thunder have a +15.3 net rating right now while the Nuggets have a +3.6 net rating. In your estimation, How much of that difference in net rating is SGA playing better than Jokic this season vs SGA's supporting cast playing better than Jokic's this season?
https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2024-25&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[RRR3]

How are Jokic stans still insisting he's clearly obviously miles better than SGA when two frequently used impact stats (EPM, LEBRON) say SGA has been more impactful? Are you that obsessed with the box score or just refusing to acknowledge something that doesn't fit your agenda? By no means has Jokic been clearly better than SGA this year, the impact data does not bear it out. That's just a fact, you can be mad about it all you want, but that's what the data says.

The Thunder have a +15.3 net rating right now while the Nuggets have a +3.6 net rating. In your estimation, How much of that difference in net rating is SGA playing better than Jokic this season vs SGA's supporting cast playing better than Jokic's this season?
https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2024-25&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

You know these stats are adjusted to measure individual impact and not take into account team data like that, yes? SGA is arguably impacting the game more whether you like it or not.

[Special_Puppy]

How are Jokic stans still insisting he's clearly obviously miles better than SGA when two frequently used impact stats (EPM, LEBRON) say SGA has been more impactful? Are you that obsessed with the box score or just refusing to acknowledge something that doesn't fit your agenda? By no means has Jokic been clearly better than SGA this year, the impact data does not bear it out. That's just a fact, you can be mad about it all you want, but that's what the data says.

The Thunder have a +15.3 net rating right now while the Nuggets have a +3.6 net rating. In your estimation, How much of that difference in net rating is SGA playing better than Jokic this season vs SGA's supporting cast playing better than Jokic's this season?
https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2024-25&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

You know these stats are adjusted to measure individual impact and not take into account team data like that, yes? SGA is arguably impacting the game more whether you like it or not.

I am aware of that and hold these stats in high regard. I’m just wondering how much of the 11.6 point gap you think is due to SGA being better than Jokic this season vs SGA’s supporting cast being bette than Jokic’s

[RRR3]

SGA having a better supporting cast is irrelevant to me if he's been more impactful. MVP is the player that adds the most value, by multiple metrics he is adding the most value.

[Special_Puppy]

SGA having a better supporting cast is irrelevant to me if he's been more impactful. MVP is the player that adds the most value, by multiple metrics he is adding the most value.

Sure and I’m wondering how much of that 11.6 point gap in team performance do you personally think is due to SGA being better than Jokic vs his supporting cast being better

[jokeboy86]

Jokic will be the reason it won't be unanimous but I think SGA has this in the bag. OKC is on a 70+ win pace(amazingly only 3 games off the '16 Warriors pace. Cavs 2 games off). When an elite player's team has gone on a winning streak like the Thunder have and are leading the conference it's basically a wrap as far as MVP or extremely rare when they don't win.

[Snake3]

How are Jokic stans still insisting he's clearly obviously miles better than SGA when two frequently used impact stats (EPM, LEBRON) say SGA has been more impactful? Are you that obsessed with the box score or just refusing to acknowledge something that doesn't fit your agenda? By no means has Jokic been clearly better than SGA this year, the impact data does not bear it out. That's just a fact, you can be mad about it all you want, but that's what the data says.

It depends on what you mean. Context matters with this. Like you can use EPM to judge someone's impact but it doesn't tell everything. Correct me if I'm wrong, Curry had more better EPM than LeBron in 18. That doesn't mean he was necessary more valuable to the team as LeBron was to his. Obviously. The GSW won a playoff series without Curry while LeBron's team likely wouldn't even make the playoffs. And Curry wasn't the better player. Like GSW had better floor than the Cavs, and with Curry it evaluated them to goat lvl status. His impact was crazy high. Of course it still matters what construction of team that you have.

But SGA has that level of an MVP impact this year. He had it last too, but even more so this year. Rival or even surpassing Jokic in some advance stats. He's very worthy of an mvp. SGA is only better by .2 with EPM. They virtually tied atm. In a similar way as they are tied in VORP basically. One game Jokic has more. The another SGA has more. They may be going back and forward.

People gotta use it within context. But SGA is balling right now. We haven't seen a two guard like him in a long time. Especially at that level he is playing at. He isn't that far from Jokic. SGA should be looking at his first mvp, but Jokic is the competition. I wouldn't be that shocked it if it goes to Jokic depending on his seeding.

[RRR3]

Is it really crazy to say Curry was better than LeBron in the 2018 regular season?

[Special_Puppy]

Is it really crazy to say Curry was better than LeBron in the 2018 regular season?

I think he was probably better on a per possession basis, but LeBron played 82 games vs 51 for Curry so
LeBron clears him there

[srhcan]

This is such nonsense bait lol. Hartenstein was out 1 months , Chet out 2 months , third string C was out for 3 months... 2 weeks with no C on the roster. Caruso has been in and out the team. It hasn't mattered at all. He has a lot of defensive help but he's single handedly lifting that offence. Jokic is the best player in the world but the difference in his and Shai's play is not great enough to overcome a 15-20 win difference. Jokic getting the MVP with 48 wins over Shai again beating him out to wins but this time beating him by that many would be absurd.

I won't even talk about Giannis and Luka comments. Giannis may be better as well but he's not ahead of Shai in this race. As for Luka , Shai has been worlds better this season (just reffering to this season)

Besides Tatum, does any other star have a better supporting cast than Shai?

So this year's narrative for Jokic is everyone has too much help let's give him another mvp for winning games at a play in rate? (AGAIN)

It worked for Jokic's 1st MVP so Jokic stans think it will work again this season. But SGA's case for MVP is too strong. It will be one of the biggest injustice in NBA, if he does not win MVP this season.

[Snake3]

Is it really crazy to say Curry was better than LeBron in the 2018 regular season?

Yes. lol

At least imo. And he wasn't the most valuable player in the league either. Although you could say his offensive impact was higher. But LeBron played more games.

This isn't the only time where EPM gets things weird. Look back in 2002. Stockton has a better EPM than Shaq. He was not at all better or more impactful than Shaq.

Look in 2006. Manu had the best EPM in the league. He wasn't the most valuable player at all. Although underrated.

You would always get weird stats no matter what. Even advance stats. You have to use it within context. EPM doesn't tell you who is the best player in the league or the most valuable. You have to use a combination of everything. But the eye test give you context.

Curry, despite having the best EPM for a stretch there, wasn't more valuable than LeBron. But his impact on the team was high. And it's also true that his team floor was high. That doesn't translate always the most valuable or even the best player. Though, everyone has their own subjective opinion about it. But I think everyone would agree that Evan Mobley isn't more valuable than Giannis is I hope.