Game 34: Wolves vs Pistons 6:00 PM CT

[shrink]

Ant actually had a terrific game from a decision-making standpoint. But his teammates absolutely tanked him

2 assists and 6 turnovers?

I get that bad shooting will reduce a player’s assists, but I was surprised to hear this and see six turnovers from a guy that took the shot himself 31 times.

EDIT: I didn’t see the game, so I’ll take your word for it that he was a terrific decision-maker. However, I am more skeptical of Howls and Growls. I’ve watched a couple previous videos that had conclusions I didn’t think they supported well, and I wonder in this one if they only show the good Ant plays that support their conclusion, when that the bulk of the data (box score) doesn’t necessarily agree with them.

But if Ant is improving as a decision-maker, that is great news - something we’ve desperately needed!

[Note30]

Mike and Jaden both took 3 fewer shots than their season average. And Mike only played 21 minutes and didn’t make a shot.

Randle was a much bigger problem than Ant. Bad decision after bad decision.

It’s not just about the shot volume, it’s about the time between shots and the lack of involvement in the offense between them. Jaden and Rudy need to feel like part of the offense or they struggle in every phase of the game.

I would rather take Cade's 40-6-9ast than Ant's 53-6-2. If Ant wants to be a super JR Smith that is fine. That is just not a top 10 player. His defense is not a liability but also not great. He needs to hit the mid range at higher efficacy. Anytime a player score 50 is not a bad game for himself. However, he playing this way would not work with Randle. We need another facilitator to win games.

Kobe, Wade, Ray Allen weren't super JR Smith's. Cade is a
PG he's supposed to get a high number of assists.

TCs choice to blow all our assets on Julius and Gobert doesnt constitute a failure on Edwards behalf.

[Note30]

LOL, and you wonder why Ant is always multi covered. BTW how many games are won with 53 points? Ant dropped 53 and we still lost big.

He's getting doubled because they are both trash. If it was KD out there and not McDaniels no question Ant wouldn't be getting doubled.

Okay, so the test is your either KD or trash. Good to know.

Jaden is a slightly better Herb Jones. At 30 mill he's trash.

[winforlose]

He's getting doubled because they are both trash. If it was KD out there and not McDaniels no question Ant wouldn't be getting doubled.

Okay, so the test is your either KD or trash. Good to know.

Jaden is a slightly better Herb Jones. At 30 mill he's trash.

Again, 23 million. 30 comes later as the cap expands. I can make a bunch of misleading statements too, but it doesn’t change the fact they are indeed misleading.

Herbs Jones has a similar floor to Jaden, Jaden has a much higher ceiling. I find it fun that you assume 24 year old Jaden with a coach that doesn’t try to develop him is the same as 26 year old Jaden who is obviously going to get a new coach. Herb is 26 after all.

[Note30]

Okay, so the test is your either KD or trash. Good to know.

Jaden is a slightly better Herb Jones. At 30 mill he's trash.

Again, 23 million. 30 comes later as the cap expands. I can make a bunch of misleading statements too, but it doesn’t change the fact they are indeed misleading.

Herbs Jones has a similar floor to Jaden, Jaden has a much higher ceiling. I find it fun that you assume 24 year old Jaden with a coach that doesn’t try to develop him is the same as 26 year old Jaden who is obviously going to get a new coach. Herb is 26 after all.

You should pay a player based on what he's worth, or atleast that's what we should have done. You don't give him a contract based on what he will be. That's **** stupid.

We gave him an extension no one else would have, we didn't even let him hit RFA status and match. We straight up gave him that ridiculous contract when he's proved nothing.

He was Herb Jones before he's basically a slightly better Herb Jones now.

[winforlose]

Jaden is a slightly better Herb Jones. At 30 mill he's trash.

Again, 23 million. 30 comes later as the cap expands. I can make a bunch of misleading statements too, but it doesn’t change the fact they are indeed misleading.

Herbs Jones has a similar floor to Jaden, Jaden has a much higher ceiling. I find it fun that you assume 24 year old Jaden with a coach that doesn’t try to develop him is the same as 26 year old Jaden who is obviously going to get a new coach. Herb is 26 after all.

You should pay a player based on what he's worth, or atleast that's what we should have done. You don't give him a contract based on what he will be. That's **** stupid.

We gave him an extension no one else would have, we didn't even let him hit RFA status and match. We straight up gave him that ridiculous contract when he's proved nothing.

He was Herb Jones before he's basically a slightly better Herb Jones now.

Excuse me? You don’t give players money based on development coming into the 2nd contract? In theory that is nice. In practice every team does it. Some win (Herro for example,) some lose (MPJ for example,) but you always must be aware of the game. Moreover, you assume that Jaden had low value, but you don’t know. We know that Utah treated Jaden as worth 2 firsts. Who knows who else was interested. You are ready to let Jaden walk on the premise that he isn’t worth between 15 and 20 percent of the cap. But if he goes anywhere else and becomes a 20/10 guy then the fan base will crucify you as GM and attack the HC for not developing him. Very bad take.

[Note30]

Again, 23 million. 30 comes later as the cap expands. I can make a bunch of misleading statements too, but it doesn’t change the fact they are indeed misleading.

Herbs Jones has a similar floor to Jaden, Jaden has a much higher ceiling. I find it fun that you assume 24 year old Jaden with a coach that doesn’t try to develop him is the same as 26 year old Jaden who is obviously going to get a new coach. Herb is 26 after all.

You should pay a player based on what he's worth, or atleast that's what we should have done. You don't give him a contract based on what he will be. That's **** stupid.

We gave him an extension no one else would have, we didn't even let him hit RFA status and match. We straight up gave him that ridiculous contract when he's proved nothing.

He was Herb Jones before he's basically a slightly better Herb Jones now.

Excuse me? You don’t give players money based on development coming into the 2nd contract? In theory that is nice. In practice every team does it. Some win (Herro for example,) some lose (MPJ for example,) but you always must be aware of the game. Moreover, you assume that Jaden had low value, but you don’t know. We know that Utah treated Jaden as worth 2 firsts. Who knows who else was interested. You are ready to let Jaden walk on the premise that he isn’t worth between 15 and 20 percent of the cap. But if he goes anywhere else and becomes a 20/10 guy then the fan base will crucify you as GM and attack the HC for not developing him. Very bad take.

Both of those guys were light years ahead offensively

Except that he hasn't and based on what I've seen he won't.

[winforlose]

You should pay a player based on what he's worth, or atleast that's what we should have done. You don't give him a contract based on what he will be. That's **** stupid.

We gave him an extension no one else would have, we didn't even let him hit RFA status and match. We straight up gave him that ridiculous contract when he's proved nothing.

He was Herb Jones before he's basically a slightly better Herb Jones now.

Excuse me? You don’t give players money based on development coming into the 2nd contract? In theory that is nice. In practice every team does it. Some win (Herro for example,) some lose (MPJ for example,) but you always must be aware of the game. Moreover, you assume that Jaden had low value, but you don’t know. We know that Utah treated Jaden as worth 2 firsts. Who knows who else was interested. You are ready to let Jaden walk on the premise that he isn’t worth between 15 and 20 percent of the cap. But if he goes anywhere else and becomes a 20/10 guy then the fan base will crucify you as GM and attack the HC for not developing him. Very bad take.

Both of those guys were light years ahead offensively

Except that he hasn't and based on what I've seen he won't.

They are two examples out of many. MPJ had chronic back issues and was a risk to be the next Ben Simmons. Tyler Herro was worried to be an overpaid Malik Beasley type sniper. The only way to recover on the investment was for him to elevate his game, which he did. Zach Lavine is the other side of that same coin, (paid for potential and did not develop.)

As for Jaden he made 2nd team all defense, won multiple playoff games as a major offensive contributor, wreaked havoc on Booker, Beal, Durant, Murray, MPJ, and more. You let your bias toward Jaden cloud your judgement. Just like the people who almost pushed NAW out of the NBA couldn’t see beyond the rough edges. In the right system with the right coach a guy on the edge of the G and loss of NBA career can be become a starter worthy talent and someone we are desperate to keep.

[Note30]

Excuse me? You don’t give players money based on development coming into the 2nd contract? In theory that is nice. In practice every team does it. Some win (Herro for example,) some lose (MPJ for example,) but you always must be aware of the game. Moreover, you assume that Jaden had low value, but you don’t know. We know that Utah treated Jaden as worth 2 firsts. Who knows who else was interested. You are ready to let Jaden walk on the premise that he isn’t worth between 15 and 20 percent of the cap. But if he goes anywhere else and becomes a 20/10 guy then the fan base will crucify you as GM and attack the HC for not developing him. Very bad take.

Both of those guys were light years ahead offensively

Except that he hasn't and based on what I've seen he won't.

They are two examples out of many. MPJ had chronic back issues and was a risk to be the next Ben Simmons. Tyler Herro was worried to be an overpaid Malik Beasley type sniper. The only way to recover on the investment was for him to elevate his game, which he did. Zach Lavine is the other side of that same coin, (paid for potential and did not develop.)

As for Jaden he made 2nd team all defense, won multiple playoff games as a major offensive contributor, wreaked havoc on Booker, Beal, Durant, Murray, MPJ, and more. You let your bias toward Jaden cloud your judgement. Just like the people who almost pushed NAW out of the NBA couldn’t see beyond the rough edges. In the right system with the right coach a guy on the edge of the G and loss of NBA career can be become a starter worthy talent and someone we are desperate to keep.

You're so blinded by the minor accomplishments he's put forward that you're willing to excuse the total lack of offensive skill.

Herb Jones made all team first. And had a hell of a run two years in a row on the pelicans playoff teams.

MPJ was a huge gamble. Made by the same idiot who gave Jaden his. The difference is that MPJ averaged 19 and 7 a game before getting extended not 9 and 4. MPJ had played the majority of games except for one season and is their their third leading scorer. Not sure what you are talking about.

He's a good defender with minor offensive abilities. There's a ton of guys like that. His current trajectory puts him more in line with Tony Allen, Dillon Brooks, and Matisse Thybulle. You don't / shouldn't pay those guys tons of money.

NAW is a great player but if he gets more than 14m next year he's over paid af.

Jaden isn't a bad player. He's just a bad player at his price point.

[winforlose]

Both of those guys were light years ahead offensively

Except that he hasn't and based on what I've seen he won't.

They are two examples out of many. MPJ had chronic back issues and was a risk to be the next Ben Simmons. Tyler Herro was worried to be an overpaid Malik Beasley type sniper. The only way to recover on the investment was for him to elevate his game, which he did. Zach Lavine is the other side of that same coin, (paid for potential and did not develop.)

As for Jaden he made 2nd team all defense, won multiple playoff games as a major offensive contributor, wreaked havoc on Booker, Beal, Durant, Murray, MPJ, and more. You let your bias toward Jaden cloud your judgement. Just like the people who almost pushed NAW out of the NBA couldn’t see beyond the rough edges. In the right system with the right coach a guy on the edge of the G and loss of NBA career can be become a starter worthy talent and someone we are desperate to keep.

You're so blinded by the minor accomplishments he's put forward that you're willing to excuse the total lack of offensive skill.

Herb Jones made all team first. And had a hell of a run two years in a row on the pelicans playoff teams.

MPJ was a huge gamble. Made by the same idiot who gave Jaden his. The difference is that MPJ averaged 19 and 7 a game before getting extended not 9 and 4. MPJ had played the majority of games except for one season and is their their third leading scorer. Not sure what you are talking about.

He's a good defender with minor offensive abilities. There's a ton of guys like that. His current trajectory puts him more in line with Tony Allen, Dillon Brooks, and Matisse Thybulle. You don't / shouldn't pay those guys tons of money.

NAW is a great player but if he gets more than 14m next year he's over paid af.

Jaden isn't a bad player. He's just a bad player at his price point.

Let’s work on a baseline. How much better do you think Andrew Nembhard is than NAW? I included the link to how much he got paid. Is he overpaid as **** too?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/78137/andrew-nembhard

[Note30]

They are two examples out of many. MPJ had chronic back issues and was a risk to be the next Ben Simmons. Tyler Herro was worried to be an overpaid Malik Beasley type sniper. The only way to recover on the investment was for him to elevate his game, which he did. Zach Lavine is the other side of that same coin, (paid for potential and did not develop.)

As for Jaden he made 2nd team all defense, won multiple playoff games as a major offensive contributor, wreaked havoc on Booker, Beal, Durant, Murray, MPJ, and more. You let your bias toward Jaden cloud your judgement. Just like the people who almost pushed NAW out of the NBA couldn’t see beyond the rough edges. In the right system with the right coach a guy on the edge of the G and loss of NBA career can be become a starter worthy talent and someone we are desperate to keep.

You're so blinded by the minor accomplishments he's put forward that you're willing to excuse the total lack of offensive skill.

Herb Jones made all team first. And had a hell of a run two years in a row on the pelicans playoff teams.

MPJ was a huge gamble. Made by the same idiot who gave Jaden his. The difference is that MPJ averaged 19 and 7 a game before getting extended not 9 and 4. MPJ had played the majority of games except for one season and is their their third leading scorer. Not sure what you are talking about.

He's a good defender with minor offensive abilities. There's a ton of guys like that. His current trajectory puts him more in line with Tony Allen, Dillon Brooks, and Matisse Thybulle. You don't / shouldn't pay those guys tons of money.

NAW is a great player but if he gets more than 14m next year he's over paid af.

Jaden isn't a bad player. He's just a bad player at his price point.

Let’s work on a baseline. How much better do you think Andrew Nembhard is than NAW? I included the link to how much he got paid. Is he overpaid as **** too?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/78137/andrew-nembhard

He's probably making 2-3 mill more than he should be. Point guards are much more needed position in this league than anything else, so there's gonna be some inflation.

I'm not super familiar with his game outside of the playoffs series where he went off.

[winforlose]

You're so blinded by the minor accomplishments he's put forward that you're willing to excuse the total lack of offensive skill.

Herb Jones made all team first. And had a hell of a run two years in a row on the pelicans playoff teams.

MPJ was a huge gamble. Made by the same idiot who gave Jaden his. The difference is that MPJ averaged 19 and 7 a game before getting extended not 9 and 4. MPJ had played the majority of games except for one season and is their their third leading scorer. Not sure what you are talking about.

He's a good defender with minor offensive abilities. There's a ton of guys like that. His current trajectory puts him more in line with Tony Allen, Dillon Brooks, and Matisse Thybulle. You don't / shouldn't pay those guys tons of money.

NAW is a great player but if he gets more than 14m next year he's over paid af.

Jaden isn't a bad player. He's just a bad player at his price point.

Let’s work on a baseline. How much better do you think Andrew Nembhard is than NAW? I included the link to how much he got paid. Is he overpaid as **** too?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/78137/andrew-nembhard

He's probably making 2-3 mill more than he should be. Point guards are much more needed position in this league than anything else, so there's gonna be some inflation.

I'm not super familiar with his game outside of the playoffs series where he went off.

Fair. But to me your take is that defense isn’t something to pay guys for. Is this correct?

[Note30]

Let’s work on a baseline. How much better do you think Andrew Nembhard is than NAW? I included the link to how much he got paid. Is he overpaid as **** too?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/78137/andrew-nembhard

He's probably making 2-3 mill more than he should be. Point guards are much more needed position in this league than anything else, so there's gonna be some inflation.

I'm not super familiar with his game outside of the playoffs series where he went off.

Fair. But to me your take is that defense isn’t something to pay guys for. Is this correct?

? When did I say that?

True two way players are worth their weight. Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, Giannis, AD, so on and so forth. Even guys who are great 3&D are worth it. Spurs Danny Green, Kawhi.

But any player that's purely a one way player, McDaniels, Gobert, or on the offensive end think Monta Ellis, Enes Kanter, Brandon Jennings etc are equivalently not worth the amount on their contracts usually.

[winforlose]

He's probably making 2-3 mill more than he should be. Point guards are much more needed position in this league than anything else, so there's gonna be some inflation.

I'm not super familiar with his game outside of the playoffs series where he went off.

Fair. But to me your take is that defense isn’t something to pay guys for. Is this correct?

? When did I say that?

True two way players are worth their weight. Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, Giannis, AD, so on and so forth. Even guys who are great 3&D are worth it. Spurs Danny Green, Kawhi.

But any player that's purely a one way player, McDaniels, Gobert, or on the offensive end think Monta Ellis, Enes Kanter, Brandon Jennings etc are equivalently not worth the amount on their contracts usually.

Okay, so you don’t consider NAW a two way?

[Note30]

Fair. But to me your take is that defense isn’t something to pay guys for. Is this correct?

? When did I say that?

True two way players are worth their weight. Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, Giannis, AD, so on and so forth. Even guys who are great 3&D are worth it. Spurs Danny Green, Kawhi.

But any player that's purely a one way player, McDaniels, Gobert, or on the offensive end think Monta Ellis, Enes Kanter, Brandon Jennings etc are equivalently not worth the amount on their contracts usually.

Okay, so you don’t consider NAW a two way?

Yes, he's two way... but.

He's a role player dude. And at the moment not making 20 mill. He's also not a starter unless you got nobody. Like he'd probably start for a couple teams in this league.

[BlacJacMac]

? When did I say that?

True two way players are worth their weight. Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, Giannis, AD, so on and so forth. Even guys who are great 3&D are worth it. Spurs Danny Green, Kawhi.

But any player that's purely a one way player, McDaniels, Gobert, or on the offensive end think Monta Ellis, Enes Kanter, Brandon Jennings etc are equivalently not worth the amount on their contracts usually.

Okay, so you don’t consider NAW a two way?

Yes, he's two way... but.

He's a role player dude. And at the moment not making 20 mill. He's also not a starter unless you got nobody. Like he'd probably start for a couple teams in this league.

Agreed. He's a very good defender, but he's also a very low volume scorer with 1 trick in his bag - the catch and shoot 3. He doesn't create anything for himself or others - 98% of his 3s the past 2 years have been assisted. When his shot isn't falling, he turns into Josh Okogie.

I really like him as a 7th or 8th man, but he's probably the guy I trade. The Caruso and Herb Jones deals are going to make him too expensive to keep, and he has zero path to start on this team. Trade him and start feeding TSJ (and maybe Clark) some minutes.

[TimberKat]

It’s not just about the shot volume, it’s about the time between shots and the lack of involvement in the offense between them. Jaden and Rudy need to feel like part of the offense or they struggle in every phase of the game.

I would rather take Cade's 40-6-9ast than Ant's 53-6-2. If Ant wants to be a super JR Smith that is fine. That is just not a top 10 player. His defense is not a liability but also not great. He needs to hit the mid range at higher efficacy. Anytime a player score 50 is not a bad game for himself. However, he playing this way would not work with Randle. We need another facilitator to win games.

Kobe, Wade, Ray Allen weren't super JR Smith's. Cade is a
PG he's supposed to get a high number of assists.

TCs choice to blow all our assets on Julius and Gobert doesnt constitute a failure on Edwards behalf.

Allen is not a failure, a barely HOF that needs other stars around him. He is a level below Kobe and DWade. Maybe even below Mitchell. So if Ant's ceiling is Ray, don't expect him to carry the team and forget all the MJ comparison. We need to find a KG or Shaq or Luka to carry the team. Both Kobe and Wade are better passer than Ant even though Kobe was considered a selfish player by many. In Kobe's 25 games of over 50pt. He still avg 3.4 ast but not sure about TO in those games.

Do agree that once the Gobert trade was made, we can't trade down with Towns. They should had traded Naz or JMcD instead. We need another all star player that can carry the team. Randle isn't it.

[TimberKat]

Again, 23 million. 30 comes later as the cap expands. I can make a bunch of misleading statements too, but it doesn’t change the fact they are indeed misleading.

Herbs Jones has a similar floor to Jaden, Jaden has a much higher ceiling. I find it fun that you assume 24 year old Jaden with a coach that doesn’t try to develop him is the same as 26 year old Jaden who is obviously going to get a new coach. Herb is 26 after all.

You should pay a player based on what he's worth, or atleast that's what we should have done. You don't give him a contract based on what he will be. That's **** stupid.

We gave him an extension no one else would have, we didn't even let him hit RFA status and match. We straight up gave him that ridiculous contract when he's proved nothing.

He was Herb Jones before he's basically a slightly better Herb Jones now.

Excuse me? You don’t give players money based on development coming into the 2nd contract? In theory that is nice. In practice every team does it. Some win (Herro for example,) some lose (MPJ for example,) but you always must be aware of the game. Moreover, you assume that Jaden had low value, but you don’t know. We know that Utah treated Jaden as worth 2 firsts. Who knows who else was interested. You are ready to let Jaden walk on the premise that he isn’t worth between 15 and 20 percent of the cap. But if he goes anywhere else and becomes a 20/10 guy then the fan base will crucify you as GM and attack the HC for not developing him. Very bad take.

I will take it a step further and say the NBA contracts are always based on expectation/potential and not their actual production. How is Ant worth a superMax? Is Beal or Simmons a max player? How many top draft picks actually performs up to their salary in the first 3 years?

I also think most GM knows a player's expected market value. In most cases, their actual market value is higher because some crazy GM may think JMcD, Naz, or Beal is the final piece of the puzzle.

[BlacJacMac]

The SuperMax was a huge mistake. Why should you make more than the maximum allowable salary because of an individual achievement?

At the very least, it shouldn't penalize the team while rewarding the player. Why not have the extra money beyond the Max not count towards the cap or the tax?

[TimberKat]

The SuperMax was a huge mistake. Why should you make more than the maximum allowable salary because of an individual achievement?

At the very least, it shouldn't penalize the team while rewarding the player. Why not have the extra money beyond the Max not count towards the cap or the tax?

Yes, I can't figure out why the 'super' part is taxed. Also, just making all NBA third team once shouldn't qualify for super. At least make it twice third team or once second team. Towns, Ant, and Beal's team are victims of the stupid rule.