Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Indeed]

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Yes Kyle was better at those 3 things. Scottie also has great bbiq and had shown flashes of good motor.

Scottie is better at almost everything else though. Not saying they are the same player. That is obviously not the case. What I am saying is that they project to have similar overall outcomes. In fact Scottie is way ahead of Kyle based on age and experience. He’s basically at the same level Kyle was in Kyle’s 3rd raptor season when he was 28.

Scottie with Motor is an absolute beast. I think we will see it when the team is competitive. We will need another star next to him though (which is true of all stars in todays nba).

A motor is always on. That's what it means.

Kyle was a scoring point guard first and foremost. Scottie has been a good role player on very strong teams, who has ambitions of playing like Magic Johnson. Not the same thing.

Lowry was DPOY.
But at the end, it really has been the 3s that made Lowry much better (carry Houston to playoffs). Barnes needs that, and once defense doesn't go under screen, he can go down hill. But then, which player doesn't need that, and how many make it to that level.

[YogurtProducer]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Yes Kyle was better at those 3 things. Scottie also has great bbiq and had shown flashes of good motor.

Scottie is better at almost everything else though. Not saying they are the same player. That is obviously not the case. What I am saying is that they project to have similar overall outcomes. In fact Scottie is way ahead of Kyle based on age and experience. He’s basically at the same level Kyle was in Kyle’s 3rd raptor season when he was 28.

Scottie with Motor is an absolute beast. I think we will see it when the team is competitive. We will need another star next to him though (which is true of all stars in todays nba).

Kyle was a better defender, 3 point shooter, playmaker, scorer, creator, and overall had a higher basketball IQ.

Lowry on steroids is a year-in year-out 1st team all-nba player and a HOF player. That is crazy to suggest

[Tha Cynic]

Not a good shot when compared to a set shot for sure, but Scottie is 6'9 with a high release point on his shot, it would be hard to block even for someone like Wemby. The key is him hitting it at a good clip, which he will need to practice, and why I'm so against him taking so many ill advised 3's.

I think where he's taking them is starting to matter more than how he's taking them.

Through last season and this season.



I think he's spreading his three point shots around too much.

What do you make of this?

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it, and the middle image is 24-25. I would say he's just worse from everywhere on the floor except under the basket and the bottom right mid range.

The volume/ratio looks largely unchanged, there just isn't as much data due to the sample size, the weighting all looks pretty similar to last year.

So the corner he was strongest in last season is the corner where he has only taken 2 or 3 shots this season and made none? If there’s anything to indicate they’re asking him to shoot from his weakest areas, this is it lol. Or those are small sample sizes since the overall two year view shows it as league average.

The good thing is he has gotten really good from the midrange area, and even has a got to move he’s now developing. IMO that’s still the main area he needs to become elite at before expanding that 3.

To me Barnes is more of a Garnett type who will lead the team in everything but needs a scorer who’s not a one trick pony. But when they need buckets inside he will be that guy as the midrange becomes very important to close out game.

[sidsid]

Kyle Lowry was an pass-first, score-second PG. He was a short, low athleticism player without much of a mid-range game and who's main offensive move inside the arc was a Superman dive layup until he got a little too old to gain an advantage with it. His main offensive weapon was elite 3point shooting.

That player type with those limitations is not enough to get you a hall of fame career. His true advantage creation ability was elite playmaking (on and off ball) with a pass-bias reputation. That's what got him actual seperation inside the arc. It's also how CP3 did it too at his size. It's the secret sauce to Jokic. Defenses can't cheat.

Guys like Kyle and Marc Gasol regularly frustrated fans with over passing, or passing up open shots, including during the chip run. Kyle has recorded multiple goose eggs in the playoffs, and has spent the majority of his career under 20pts per game, even though he could score more. It's the tradeoff to players who know how to make the team better, but also miss opportunities that pure scorers will grab.

Kyle came into his own late in his career. Barnes is currently working on what I believe is non-bread and butter, and similar to how Kyle was stuck behind Calderon and Rudy Gay in his role, Jak "30 pts" Poeltl is largely in his. That's going to stunt growth the same way it did Lowry, but at least Barnes is younger.

[Chandan]

Kyle came into his own late in his career. Barnes is currently working on what I believe is non-bread and butter, and similar to how Kyle was stuck behind Calderon and Rudy Gay in his role, Jak "30 pts" Poeltl is largely in his. That's going to stunt growth the same way it did Lowry, but at least Barnes is younger.

I feel like if Barnes really want to ascend with his current skill set, he has to model his game after Jimmy butler. Or at least study what made him successful. Not really in the mold of what Jimmy can do with the ball (because they are vastly different players), but playing the game within the game, utilizing intensity, locking down defensively.
Jimmy for the early part of his career never struck me as an exceptionally talented offensive player, and he still isn't. He was way behind Demar in terms of actual basket skills like pure shooting and foot work. However, his career has basically eclipse Demar's just because he knows when to show up with his physicality and making the aggressive plays in the clutch.

Now, jimmy will never be on the tier of Magic Johnson, mini Jokic. But I think that ship has sailed for Scottie especially if his current situation.

[sidsid]

I think where he's taking them is starting to matter more than how he's taking them.

Through last season and this season.



I think he's spreading his three point shots around too much.

What do you make of this?

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it, and the middle image is 24-25. I would say he's just worse from everywhere on the floor except under the basket and the bottom right mid range.

The volume/ratio looks largely unchanged, there just isn't as much data due to the sample size, the weighting all looks pretty similar to last year.

So the corner he was strongest in last season is the corner where he has only taken 2 or 3 shots this season and made none? If there’s anything to indicate they’re asking him to shoot from his weakest areas, this is it lol. Or those are small sample sizes since the overall two year view shows it as league average.

The good thing is he has gotten really good from the midrange area, and even has a got to move he’s now developing. IMO that’s still the main area he needs to become elite at before expanding that 3.

To me Barnes is more of a Garnett type who will lead the team in everything but needs a scorer who’s not a one trick pony. But when they need buckets inside he will be that guy as the midrange becomes very important to close out game.

Once the experimentation stage is done, he'll largely gravitate towards his sweet spots, and the coaching/ analytics department is probably forecasting those for him.

The way I see it playing out in the end (all assuming modern spacing/no Jak future, complete team):

Scottie high post hub/motion offense:
- left high post, all mid-range shots here if action ends
- pop (if not rolling) to left wing/middle above the break on hand-off

Transition/initiator
- above the break middle
- Iso turns into hub as second option

Off-ball/taking a break:
- left corner unless he expands like OG did, then left wing. You usually want your creators above the break, but it's a taxing job on both ends for him as a hub, so don't see an issue with the non-Barnes offense being here if it's optimal shooting.

[ArthurVandelay]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

I agree.

But Kyle wasn’t that player at 23.

[sidsid]

Kyle came into his own late in his career. Barnes is currently working on what I believe is non-bread and butter, and similar to how Kyle was stuck behind Calderon and Rudy Gay in his role, Jak "30 pts" Poeltl is largely in his. That's going to stunt growth the same way it did Lowry, but at least Barnes is younger.

I feel like if Barnes really want to ascend with his current skill set, he has to model his game after Jimmy butler. Or at least study what made him successful. Not really in the mold of what Jimmy can do with the ball (because they are vastly different players), but playing the game within the game, utilizing intensity, locking down defensively.
Jimmy for the early part of his career never struck me as an exceptionally talented offensive player, and he still isn't. He was way behind Demar in terms of actual basket skills like pure shooting and foot work. However, his career has basically eclipse Demar's just because he knows when to show up with his physicality and making the aggressive plays in the clutch.

Now, jimmy will never be on the tier of Magic Johnson, mini Jokic. But I think that ship has sailed for Scottie especially if his current situation.

I don't have any issues with Barnes practicing all the PG/3pt pull-up stuff now, or even next year (as mentioned, hard to do anything else with Jak). This era rewards wing versatility to an extreme extent. But the Jimmy example is apt. He picks his spots, can extend his game to 3pt shooting, etc. when the need arises. Experience and reps got him there. It's not like playoff Himmy turns him into LeBron in skillset. He just becomes an incredibly effective player within the skills he developed and busts out the versatility at the right times.

[gp2015]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Lowry at 23 had a reputation as an immature player.

Lowry matured and developed his 'off the charts' bbiq later in his career through experience. He didn't magically have it when he came in the league.

[ForeverTFC]

So the corner he was strongest in last season is the corner where he has only taken 2 or 3 shots this season and made none? If there’s anything to indicate they’re asking him to shoot from his weakest areas, this is it lol. Or those are small sample sizes since the overall two year view shows it as league average.

He's been handling the ball most season, so a lot less likely to be in the corner. Also, without IQ, the only player that drives is RJ and he only goes left. So you want the corner shooter on the left side there. We should see the shot distribution change now that IQ is back.

[Scase]

Well there's a few things to take away, near the FT line last year he shot 41%.4 on about 65 shots, this year he's at about 54.5% on 33 shots. Rough guestimate since I had to use stat muse so there might be a little variance.

ABT Dead Center seems to be where his sweet spot is in shooting 3s. 38.6% on 83 shots% last year, 37.2% on 43 shots this year, again Stat Muse. Not exactly sure which site is more accurate. (note Barnes was shooting ice cold from dead center at the beginning of the year but has since righted the ship, I wonder if his shooting at the 28.9% area will improve (it was 38% the year before).

Regardless there's areas on the 3 he absolutely sucks at (Center Right, or the left side of the picture) 27% last year, 20% this year.

Gradey is the opposite, he's a 44% three point shooter at Dead Center, but a 26.3% on Center left.

His corner shooting (one corner at least) is where he should be taking most of his 3's. It also puts him closest to the basket, and furthest from help defenders, meaning he can have the best chance to make it to the rim with less trouble. It's basically a double whammy, he either hits the 3 at a good clip (43.5%), or he drives and gets better looks in the mid range.

His centre ATB shots were his second best shots, but still substantially worse. I'm alright with him taking some of those, but realistically he should be playing from about 16ft in, that will open up his entire game. They sag off of him at the 3 so he can't get an easy spot in the MR, leaving him more open shots, or the cover him tight and he can bully them to the basket/open up passing lanes. It just offers him way more opportunities to positively affect the offence than jacking up 3s.

Even if he was shooting 40% up top, he still doesn't have the dribble drive game/foot speed to punish defenders that are tight on him. We gotta play him to his strengths, not try and force things that don't exist. We don't need a 6'9 3pt shooter who doesn't have the athletic ability to punish defences when they take that shot away.

His 3pt shooting needs to be respectable, that's it. Keep a defence honest, no more, no less.

I disagree, his ABT dead center is where he should be shooting primarily (for his 3s), mostly because it takes advantage of his vision and passing. If he's stuck in the corner there's only so much he can see of the entire field, and passing angles are worse. What he actually needs to do is lower his ABT 3s on the right (and possibly on the left if they don't improve).

Another reason why I want him operating there is if he breaks the first offense is I think it put's him in his wheelhouse faster and easier (FT area).

I'd rather we not box him in with an Abaji role. (just the corner 3)

There's no way around this, he needs to beat his defender (it doesn't have to be to the hoop, could be a side step move) at the 3 point line AND he needs to sink the shots. His strengths as is are just not good enough. There's been times when he's done it, but he needs to do it consistently, AND hit the shot.

As for the bolded, I agree though the season isn't over though (keep in mind he was shooting under 20% from 3 earlier so let's see if his Dead Center shooting improves even more or regresses).

I'm more or less saying he's more than a corner 3 point shooter (imo anyways).

Anyways we all bitch here and there, but it's funny as ultimately we have no say.

I get what you are saying, and I think we are mostly on the same page, just thinking about the different ways to approach it. I would love if he had a legitimate ATB shot, and ideally I'd prefer that over a corner 3, but right now the corner 3 is looking reliable and we should leverage that while he continues to take some shots from ATB.

His ability to beat his defender is the main issue, that's why I think the MR shot is the biggest benefit to that. If they know he can either shoot the 3, or bang in the paint, that's easy to game plan for. Cover him tight on the perimeter, and if he actually happens to get past his defender, he's still too slow to get to the basket unimpeded which gives the help D plenty of time to react, but if he does the same thing and has a legit MR game, then that's a lot more scrambling for the defence.

I think the limited vision from the corner becomes less of an issue when he's got players like IQ who can hit ATB 3's easily as well as continue to swing the ball, not to mention Scottie has the size to pass corner to corner, we've seen it before so I'm not super concerned.

[Scase]

I think where he's taking them is starting to matter more than how he's taking them.

Through last season and this season.



I think he's spreading his three point shots around too much.

What do you make of this?

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it, and the middle image is 24-25. I would say he's just worse from everywhere on the floor except under the basket and the bottom right mid range.

The volume/ratio looks largely unchanged, there just isn't as much data due to the sample size, the weighting all looks pretty similar to last year.

So the corner he was strongest in last season is the corner where he has only taken 2 or 3 shots this season and made none? If there’s anything to indicate they’re asking him to shoot from his weakest areas, this is it lol. Or those are small sample sizes since the overall two year view shows it as league average.

The good thing is he has gotten really good from the midrange area, and even has a got to move he’s now developing. IMO that’s still the main area he needs to become elite at before expanding that 3.

To me Barnes is more of a Garnett type who will lead the team in everything but needs a scorer who’s not a one trick pony. But when they need buckets inside he will be that guy as the midrange becomes very important to close out game.

I think it's less that he has gotten really good at the midrange, and more likely that it's a sample size thing. He's way up and way down in multiple places in the MR.

Left side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 46.2% -> 40%, 60% -> 25%, and 39.1% -> 50%.
Right side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 53.3% -> 30%, 30% -> 50%, and 18.2% -> 61.3%.
Up top he went from 38.1% -> 0%.

Those are all massive swings in efficiency, with one of them being 43%. So my money is on nothing changing and just way fewer shots since we're looking at 1 full season vs 22 games.

I agree with you that the MR is where he should be focusing most of his reps, it's what is going to open up his game the most. In 23-24 he only took 119 shots in the mid range, that is WAY below a sample size to draw any conclusions from. This season he's taken 72 total, which is definitely a step up in volume but that area where he's shooting 60%, is just 30 shots.

For context he's taken 43 3's, just at the top of the ATB region. And even though he's shooting above league average from there (37.2% vs 34.9%) that's still way too small of a sample size to be bothered with. Scottie has shown he probably has a good touch from MR, but until I see him do it consistently for a season, I'm not willing to say he's particularly good at it.

[Vampirate]

Assuming I'm not misunderstanding it, and the middle image is 24-25. I would say he's just worse from everywhere on the floor except under the basket and the bottom right mid range.

The volume/ratio looks largely unchanged, there just isn't as much data due to the sample size, the weighting all looks pretty similar to last year.

So the corner he was strongest in last season is the corner where he has only taken 2 or 3 shots this season and made none? If there’s anything to indicate they’re asking him to shoot from his weakest areas, this is it lol. Or those are small sample sizes since the overall two year view shows it as league average.

The good thing is he has gotten really good from the midrange area, and even has a got to move he’s now developing. IMO that’s still the main area he needs to become elite at before expanding that 3.

To me Barnes is more of a Garnett type who will lead the team in everything but needs a scorer who’s not a one trick pony. But when they need buckets inside he will be that guy as the midrange becomes very important to close out game.

I think it's less that he has gotten really good at the midrange, and more likely that it's a sample size thing. He's way up and way down in multiple places in the MR.

Left side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 46.2% -> 40%, 60% -> 25%, and 39.1% -> 50%.
Right side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 53.3% -> 30%, 30% -> 50%, and 18.2% -> 61.3%.
Up top he went from 38.1% -> 0%.

Those are all massive swings in efficiency, with one of them being 43%. So my money is on nothing changing and just way fewer shots since we're looking at 1 full season vs 22 games.

I agree with you that the MR is where he should be focusing most of his reps, it's what is going to open up his game the most. In 23-24 he only took 119 shots in the mid range, that is WAY below a sample size to draw any conclusions from. This season he's taken 72 total, which is definitely a step up in volume but that area where he's shooting 60%, is just 30 shots.

For context he's taken 43 3's, just at the top of the ATB region. And even though he's shooting above league average from there (37.2% vs 34.9%) that's still way too small of a sample size to be bothered with. Scottie has shown he probably has a good touch from MR, but until I see him do it consistently for a season, I'm not willing to say he's particularly good at it.

I'd say the best way to put it is while there's no real conclusive evidence, there's positive signs pointing that way. He's upped his shooting of amount of shots from 10-16 to 14% and mid rage overall 22.2%

I think 28% on 3s is where I want him at....so basically Kawhi.

Kawhi has a career .210 (0-3)/.164 (3-10)/.192 (10-16)/.153 (16-3P)/.281 (3P) in shot distribution on range from the hoop. He's basically the guy to emulate.

Tbh Barnes .192/.247 from 0-10 feet is something i'm actually happy is being lowered, it indicates that he's taking more shots overall from outside 10 feet.

If he takes over 50% of his shots from 0-10 feet he's too easy to stop as only players like Giannis, Jokic etc can excel specifically in that area. People wanting him to play in the post miss that fact.

Anyways, let's hope his shooting at ATB dead center keeps improving, he's at 35-37% there depending on statmuse or BBindex.

Also note, if you take a look at his shot chart he really does seem to be taking the majority of his shots from 1 side of the court.

[Scase]

So the corner he was strongest in last season is the corner where he has only taken 2 or 3 shots this season and made none? If there’s anything to indicate they’re asking him to shoot from his weakest areas, this is it lol. Or those are small sample sizes since the overall two year view shows it as league average.

The good thing is he has gotten really good from the midrange area, and even has a got to move he’s now developing. IMO that’s still the main area he needs to become elite at before expanding that 3.

To me Barnes is more of a Garnett type who will lead the team in everything but needs a scorer who’s not a one trick pony. But when they need buckets inside he will be that guy as the midrange becomes very important to close out game.

I think it's less that he has gotten really good at the midrange, and more likely that it's a sample size thing. He's way up and way down in multiple places in the MR.

Left side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 46.2% -> 40%, 60% -> 25%, and 39.1% -> 50%.
Right side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 53.3% -> 30%, 30% -> 50%, and 18.2% -> 61.3%.
Up top he went from 38.1% -> 0%.

Those are all massive swings in efficiency, with one of them being 43%. So my money is on nothing changing and just way fewer shots since we're looking at 1 full season vs 22 games.

I agree with you that the MR is where he should be focusing most of his reps, it's what is going to open up his game the most. In 23-24 he only took 119 shots in the mid range, that is WAY below a sample size to draw any conclusions from. This season he's taken 72 total, which is definitely a step up in volume but that area where he's shooting 60%, is just 30 shots.

For context he's taken 43 3's, just at the top of the ATB region. And even though he's shooting above league average from there (37.2% vs 34.9%) that's still way too small of a sample size to be bothered with. Scottie has shown he probably has a good touch from MR, but until I see him do it consistently for a season, I'm not willing to say he's particularly good at it.

I'd say the best way to put it is while there's no real conclusive evidence, there's positive signs pointing that way. He's upped his shooting of amount of shots from 10-16 to 14% and mid rage overall 22.2%

I think 28% on 3s is where I want him at....so basically Kawhi.

Kawhi has a career .210 (0-3)/.164 (3-10)/.192 (10-16)/.153 (16-3P)/.281 (3P) in shot distribution on range from the hoop. He's basically the guy to emulate.

Tbh Barnes .192/.247 from 0-10 feet is something i'm actually happy is being lowered, it indicates that he's taking more shots overall from outside 10 feet.

If he takes over 50% of his shots from 0-10 feet he's too easy to stop as only players like Giannis, Jokic etc can excel specifically in that area. People wanting him to play in the post miss that fact.

Anyways, let's hope his shooting at ATB dead center keeps improving, he's at 35-37% there depending on statmuse or BBindex.

Also note, if you take a look at his shot chart he really does seem to be taking the majority of his shots from 1 side of the court.

The thing is, Kawhi came into the league shooting 37-38%, his shot diet justified that many 3's. Scottie is significantly worse from 3 than Kawhi was, and you don't learn how to shoot a 3 from a couple hundred attempts in a season. I can assure you that if Kawhi was shooting 29% coming into the NBA, Pop would not have let him take 30% of his attempts from 3.

Just because we want him to be like Kawhi, doesn't mean we force a square peg into a round hole. As for the 0-10ft range, the only person stopping Scottie there, is Scottie. He needs to learn how to establish position on the low block, cause when he has it, and he's looking to score, he has no issues getting to the basket.

[PushDaRock]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Lowry at 23 had a reputation as an immature player.

Lowry matured and developed his 'off the charts' bbiq later in his career through experience. He didn't magically have it when he came in the league.

Sure and Lowry had a totally different career path than Scottie. He bounced around a couple teams, wasn't playing much his first 4 years, then became a solid role player for a few years before becoming what he is. Scottie was ROY, handed the keys to the franchise in Year 3 and given a Max extension. Totally different experiences as you can see so it seems unrealistic to think Scottie's Basketball IQ is going to develop in a similar way to Lowry given how different they came up in the league.

[Indeed]

I think it's less that he has gotten really good at the midrange, and more likely that it's a sample size thing. He's way up and way down in multiple places in the MR.

Left side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 46.2% -> 40%, 60% -> 25%, and 39.1% -> 50%.
Right side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 53.3% -> 30%, 30% -> 50%, and 18.2% -> 61.3%.
Up top he went from 38.1% -> 0%.

Those are all massive swings in efficiency, with one of them being 43%. So my money is on nothing changing and just way fewer shots since we're looking at 1 full season vs 22 games.

I agree with you that the MR is where he should be focusing most of his reps, it's what is going to open up his game the most. In 23-24 he only took 119 shots in the mid range, that is WAY below a sample size to draw any conclusions from. This season he's taken 72 total, which is definitely a step up in volume but that area where he's shooting 60%, is just 30 shots.

For context he's taken 43 3's, just at the top of the ATB region. And even though he's shooting above league average from there (37.2% vs 34.9%) that's still way too small of a sample size to be bothered with. Scottie has shown he probably has a good touch from MR, but until I see him do it consistently for a season, I'm not willing to say he's particularly good at it.

I'd say the best way to put it is while there's no real conclusive evidence, there's positive signs pointing that way. He's upped his shooting of amount of shots from 10-16 to 14% and mid rage overall 22.2%

I think 28% on 3s is where I want him at....so basically Kawhi.

Kawhi has a career .210 (0-3)/.164 (3-10)/.192 (10-16)/.153 (16-3P)/.281 (3P) in shot distribution on range from the hoop. He's basically the guy to emulate.

Tbh Barnes .192/.247 from 0-10 feet is something i'm actually happy is being lowered, it indicates that he's taking more shots overall from outside 10 feet.

If he takes over 50% of his shots from 0-10 feet he's too easy to stop as only players like Giannis, Jokic etc can excel specifically in that area. People wanting him to play in the post miss that fact.

Anyways, let's hope his shooting at ATB dead center keeps improving, he's at 35-37% there depending on statmuse or BBindex.

Also note, if you take a look at his shot chart he really does seem to be taking the majority of his shots from 1 side of the court.

The thing is, Kawhi came into the league shooting 37-38%, his shot diet justified that many 3's. Scottie is significantly worse from 3 than Kawhi was, and you don't learn how to shoot a 3 from a couple hundred attempts in a season. I can assure you that if Kawhi was shooting 29% coming into the NBA, Pop would not have let him take 30% of his attempts from 3.

Just because we want him to be like Kawhi, doesn't mean we force a square peg into a round hole. As for the 0-10ft range, the only person stopping Scottie there, is Scottie. He needs to learn how to establish position on the low block, cause when he has it, and he's looking to score, he has no issues getting to the basket.

The 0-10 ft range are mainly started against smaller players or in transition. It is easy to think it can be more aggressive and increase the frequency from stats, but the reality is that opposing teams will change their defensive system to adjust.

Much like his turnaround fadeaway, defenders started to contest it, and he missed afterward. Certainly he can have the counter in pump fake, but teams will adept soon.

[Vampirate]

I think it's less that he has gotten really good at the midrange, and more likely that it's a sample size thing. He's way up and way down in multiple places in the MR.

Left side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 46.2% -> 40%, 60% -> 25%, and 39.1% -> 50%.
Right side he went from (elbow/mid/baseline) 53.3% -> 30%, 30% -> 50%, and 18.2% -> 61.3%.
Up top he went from 38.1% -> 0%.

Those are all massive swings in efficiency, with one of them being 43%. So my money is on nothing changing and just way fewer shots since we're looking at 1 full season vs 22 games.

I agree with you that the MR is where he should be focusing most of his reps, it's what is going to open up his game the most. In 23-24 he only took 119 shots in the mid range, that is WAY below a sample size to draw any conclusions from. This season he's taken 72 total, which is definitely a step up in volume but that area where he's shooting 60%, is just 30 shots.

For context he's taken 43 3's, just at the top of the ATB region. And even though he's shooting above league average from there (37.2% vs 34.9%) that's still way too small of a sample size to be bothered with. Scottie has shown he probably has a good touch from MR, but until I see him do it consistently for a season, I'm not willing to say he's particularly good at it.

I'd say the best way to put it is while there's no real conclusive evidence, there's positive signs pointing that way. He's upped his shooting of amount of shots from 10-16 to 14% and mid rage overall 22.2%

I think 28% on 3s is where I want him at....so basically Kawhi.

Kawhi has a career .210 (0-3)/.164 (3-10)/.192 (10-16)/.153 (16-3P)/.281 (3P) in shot distribution on range from the hoop. He's basically the guy to emulate.

Tbh Barnes .192/.247 from 0-10 feet is something i'm actually happy is being lowered, it indicates that he's taking more shots overall from outside 10 feet.

If he takes over 50% of his shots from 0-10 feet he's too easy to stop as only players like Giannis, Jokic etc can excel specifically in that area. People wanting him to play in the post miss that fact.

Anyways, let's hope his shooting at ATB dead center keeps improving, he's at 35-37% there depending on statmuse or BBindex.

Also note, if you take a look at his shot chart he really does seem to be taking the majority of his shots from 1 side of the court.

The thing is, Kawhi came into the league shooting 37-38%, his shot diet justified that many 3's. Scottie is significantly worse from 3 than Kawhi was, and you don't learn how to shoot a 3 from a couple hundred attempts in a season. I can assure you that if Kawhi was shooting 29% coming into the NBA, Pop would not have let him take 30% of his attempts from 3.

Just because we want him to be like Kawhi, doesn't mean we force a square peg into a round hole. As for the 0-10ft range, the only person stopping Scottie there, is Scottie. He needs to learn how to establish position on the low block, cause when he has it, and he's looking to score, he has no issues getting to the basket.

28% on 16.5 shot attempts is 4.6 attempted 3s a game, which is actually below last years pace.

The last thing I want is him being on the 22% he was in his sophomore year. The thing is he can't be hesitant to shoot the 3 either. Limiting him is going to slow his progress. You just have to hope that if the 3 doesn't fall for 4-5 straight attempts and he's 0-5 that he mixes it up.

But I also believe you are writing him off too early as well (in regards to shooting 3s).

[gp2015]

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Lowry at 23 had a reputation as an immature player.

Lowry matured and developed his 'off the charts' bbiq later in his career through experience. He didn't magically have it when he came in the league.

Sure and Lowry had a totally different career path than Scottie. He bounced around a couple teams, wasn't playing much his first 4 years, then became a solid role player for a few years before becoming what he is. Scottie was ROY, handed the keys to the franchise in Year 3 and given a Max extension. Totally different experiences as you can see so it seems unrealistic to think Scottie's Basketball IQ is going to develop in a similar way to Lowry given how different they came up in the league.

Agreed.

[Indeed]

I'd say the best way to put it is while there's no real conclusive evidence, there's positive signs pointing that way. He's upped his shooting of amount of shots from 10-16 to 14% and mid rage overall 22.2%

I think 28% on 3s is where I want him at....so basically Kawhi.

Kawhi has a career .210 (0-3)/.164 (3-10)/.192 (10-16)/.153 (16-3P)/.281 (3P) in shot distribution on range from the hoop. He's basically the guy to emulate.

Tbh Barnes .192/.247 from 0-10 feet is something i'm actually happy is being lowered, it indicates that he's taking more shots overall from outside 10 feet.

If he takes over 50% of his shots from 0-10 feet he's too easy to stop as only players like Giannis, Jokic etc can excel specifically in that area. People wanting him to play in the post miss that fact.

Anyways, let's hope his shooting at ATB dead center keeps improving, he's at 35-37% there depending on statmuse or BBindex.

Also note, if you take a look at his shot chart he really does seem to be taking the majority of his shots from 1 side of the court.

The thing is, Kawhi came into the league shooting 37-38%, his shot diet justified that many 3's. Scottie is significantly worse from 3 than Kawhi was, and you don't learn how to shoot a 3 from a couple hundred attempts in a season. I can assure you that if Kawhi was shooting 29% coming into the NBA, Pop would not have let him take 30% of his attempts from 3.

Just because we want him to be like Kawhi, doesn't mean we force a square peg into a round hole. As for the 0-10ft range, the only person stopping Scottie there, is Scottie. He needs to learn how to establish position on the low block, cause when he has it, and he's looking to score, he has no issues getting to the basket.

28% on 16.5 shot attempts is 4.6 attempted 3s a game, which is actually below last years pace.

The last thing I want is him being on the 22% he was in his sophomore year. The thing is he can't be hesitant to shoot the 3 either. Limiting him is going to slow his progress. You just have to hope that if the 3 doesn't fall for 4-5 straight attempts and he's 0-5 that he mixes it up.

But I also believe you are writing him off too early as well (in regards to shooting 3s).

Indeed, we are too early in writing off people shooting the 3s, and Barnes can be shooting 3s like Siakam, right?

[Reeko]

The closest raptor comp ceiling is Kyle on steroids. That is a great player.

See this comp a lot but Lowry has Basketball IQ that is off the charts. He was also one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. There was also never questioning Lowry's motor, he consistently played harder than anyone on the floor.

Lowry at 23 had a reputation as an immature player.

Lowry matured and developed his 'off the charts' bbiq later in his career through experience. He didn't magically have it when he came in the league.

Maturity he developed later, yes. The "off the charts" bbiq was always there, it's just that his maturity issues held him back from showing it consistently.