Political Roundtable Part XXXIII

[daoneandonly]

Wow.

I had been feeling a little guilty the last day or 2 for calling out for Da1 to make his arguments and bring his receipts
after he told the story(ies) of falling victim to repeated crime, I could feel sympathy and compassion
for him but didn't take the time right away to respond. I got busy with some other things and didn't have
the time to return to the thread since you posted that narrative a few days ago. This was right after I almost
posted something in my impatience for his not responding quickly enough. Somehow I managed to delete that
before making an @ss of myself (again)..

So, Da1, I am really sorry to hear of your experiences as a crime victim. It's not surprising that
those experiences would make you angry. They would make me angry too. But here's the thing,
your apparent lock em up and throw away the key simple response is like many simple responses
to complicated problems, it doesn't achieve the results intended and can often make things worse.
But I appreciate your (Da1) willingness to engage here in this thread.

As a general thing, the political arguments of those on the right (since around the 80s) have drifted
further away from data driven solutions towards marketing based solutions that aren't really very
well thought ought or effective in solving the problem, but they sell to voters by appealing to unhealthy
things like toxic masculinity and militarism. Subtle, or not so subtle, aspects of racism have helped close
the deal or narrowly provided electoral margins. That's what makes an essay or book like The Cruelty is the Point
become simultaneously popular and despised.

So in conclusion and to the many folks here who I consider friends, even though we've never met, thank you
for continuing to educate me. I was particularly struck by 'cakes 'group check' post and by Doc's
post that immediately followed 'cakes post in pg 89. To others I didn't mention, it doesn't mean
I didn't also appreciate what you wrote. Thank you.

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

(I still have a couple posts I need to go back and read)

I'll try to respond in more detail tomorrow, but curious, what would you propose as a way to rectify the terrible crime in DC? Assuming you agree it's terrible

[dobrojim]

Young people need to be able to envision a realistic and hopeful future for themselves.
Use that as your starting premise to encourage a future that we all can hope they reach.
That applies to many choices young people are facing as they transition from 13 yo to 22 yo.
There are many ways to take steps in that direction.

[dobrojim]

Planned Parenthood is not your enemy.
Religious dogma that says every fertilized egg should be treated as if it were a person is a problem.
If you want to personally believe that, it's your choice. But if someone else takes the position that
it's not the same, and you use your religious belief to say it is and you must follow what I believe,
that's a huge step over the line. Follow your own belief, be it informed by religion or something else.
But don't try to force others to agree with you. It's really that simple. A baby is not the same as a fertilized
embryo.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm the one who brought up race to be fair. Google says 72% of black kids are born to single mothers and 48% dont have a father in the household. Like I said the highest privilege one can have (outside of being healthy) is having two parents that raise you right.

Obviously this is a major problem.

Not having a father in the home is the central issue.

--Fathers should be linked to children through genetic tests.
--Men who didn't have fathers in their lives should have mentoring made available.
--Non-custodial fathers need to engage in networking. How to be involved in your children's lives. Communication. Pictures. Social Networking.
--The family court needs revised laws and innovations. Payments should go to debit cards where mother's spending can be tracked.
--The Department of Education doesn't need to be abolished. Every family lawyer could be replaced by mediators and computer based questions.

Fathers need to spend time with their children. Women need to be deincentivized from taking children from fathers.

Just idol thoughts.

[daoneandonly]

Not having a father in a child's life is an absolute problem, no debate. It impacts that child's well being in terms of love, confidence, health, and resources in how they can make a life for themselves as an adult.

But no, not having a father does not excuse anyone from becoming a criminal and hurting other people. A father is not the only person in one's life that can teach a kid right from wrong. Hell, much of that does not need to be even taught.

[daoneandonly]

As for PP, my point stands whether you're religious or not. If people are so adamant that the government should not be involved in what a woman does with her body, then they shouldnt also cry for free services at PP, universal healthcare, or heck even free vaccines and mandates. If you want the government out, let them be out. This is classic have your cake and have it served to you on a platter to eat syndrome.

And for the record, I am for vaccine mandates. Its not just about said person's body, its for the benefit and safety of others, same reason I am pro life and fight for the baby. And the Covid vaccine did not do diddly for me, yet I still believe in vaccines in general.

[pancakes3]

libs: we should have universal healthcare
religious right: no. and we shouldn't be performing abortions either
libs: health care is health care, you shouldn't use your religious preferences to influence our secular country's laws to limit what is covered under healthcare.
religious right: you libs always want your cake served on a silver platter

is it though? is it that we want our cake served on a silver platter, or that we want the things that we ask for, without exception? so that we get the governmental services that we want, without it being twisted into a monkey's paw wish?

also, do we (collective we, as Americans) not deserve that our government serve things to us on a silver platter?

anyway, the point of this post is that libs asking for universal healthcare, and libs asking that healthcare that includes abortions, are (1) two separate issues; and (2) not logically inconsistent. and it's troubling that someone with STEM training can't make that determination.

[doclinkin]

As for PP, my point stands whether you're religious or not. If people are so adamant that the government should not be involved in what a woman does with her body, then they shouldnt also cry for free services at PP, universal healthcare, or heck even free vaccines and mandates. If you want the government out, let them be out. This is classic have your cake and have it served to you on a platter to eat syndrome.

Not quite. The argument is that doctors and medical science should rule the choices we make when it comes to medicine. Whether at Planned Parenthood or at your local hospital.

I have personal experience with this. My kid is an in vitro baby. She was the fastest growing of 12 blastocysts in the dish. At that point we are talking a few dozen frozen cells. Not big enough to see. Not able to survive on its own. Not a person.

But before my kid we had a late miscarriage. Worst day of my life then. Amniotic sac had broken. Fluid leaked out. Baby was going to die no matter what. Too early to birth. 2-3 weeks from being able to survive as a preemie. So the pregnancy had to be terminated. Otherwise my wife would carry a dead baby inside her until her body chose to force it out. Infection and her death being the probable result.

In any sane and caring country this would be provided. Any country should say the life of its citizens is valuable. We pay for their protection with the Defense department. So do we pay for their protection in medicine. We protect their general welfare and health.

My wife was induced. I held my baby boy as he died.

I am not a doctor. I trust that at Holy Cross, a catholic hospital dedicated to the protection of human life, the doctors there used the best science that medicine had. If they could have kept my son alive they would have done everything possible.

I had the best insurance. The doctors at the time were top rated in obstetrics in the area. They made the decision that kept my kids mom alive. And knew my son would not. Perfectly formed as he was, eyelashes and fingernails. Joshua died in the palm of my hand.

Now. Would life and justice have been served if the law prevented the doctors from making that decision? They said he’d die within 1-3 days no matter what. Would life have been better served if she carried a dying baby in her empty womb in that time. With risk of infection. And certainty of prolonged grief.

Medicine allowed us to have a kid. The next pregnancy she was on bed rest for 6 months. Born healthy. The kid is now a loving caring sweet 14 year old. Genuinely kind teenager who wants to teach special ed. Paints pictures for fun. Those same blastocysts, her bothers and sisters, were probably disposed of unless they are still frozen somewhere.

We live in an age of medical miracles. If we trust that medicine to do surgery on our brains and eyeballs with robot guided lasers, then we trust that medicine to guide us in trying to bring new human beings into the world. Or knowing if we can or cannot.

We trust the experts to make that decision. And trust them to guide our Laws. Trust them to know the right choice to make, and not a book written at a time when one prescribed method for ensuring pregnancy was not in vitro fertilization but methods like:

“To make a not childbearing woman pregnant: flay an edible mouse, open it up, and fill it with myrrh. You dry it in the shade, crush and grind it up, and mix it with fat. You place it in her vagina, and she will become pregnant.”

So. Yes. A democratic vote by misguided people should not have been the determining factor on whether my kids mom lived or died.

And crushing as it was I am glad it was a doctor I trusted who made the decision that allowed me to hold my son as he died.

And not Clarence **** Thomas.

[daoneandonly]

As for PP, my point stands whether you're religious or not. If people are so adamant that the government should not be involved in what a woman does with her body, then they shouldnt also cry for free services at PP, universal healthcare, or heck even free vaccines and mandates. If you want the government out, let them be out. This is classic have your cake and have it served to you on a platter to eat syndrome.

Not quite. The argument is that doctors and medical science should rule the choices we make when it comes to medicine. Whether at Planned Parenthood or at your local hospital.

I have personal experience with this. My kid is an in vitro baby. She was the fastest growing of 12 blastocysts in the dish. At that point we are talking a few dozen frozen cells. Not big enough to see. Not able to survive on its own. Not a person.

But before my kid we had a late miscarriage. Worst day of my life then. Amniotic sac had broken. Fluid leaked out. Baby was going to die no matter what. Too early to birth. 2-3 weeks from being able to survive as a preemie. So the pregnancy had to be terminated. Otherwise my wife would carry a dead baby inside her until her body chose to force it out. Infection and her death being the probable result.

In any sane and caring country this would be provided. Any country should say the life of its citizens is valuable. We pay for their protection with the Defense department. So do we pay for their protection in medicine. We protect their general welfare and health.

My wife was induced. I held my baby boy as he died.

I am not a doctor. I trust that at Holy Cross, a catholic hospital dedicated to the protection of human life, the doctors there used the best science that medicine had. If they could have kept my son alive they would have done everything possible.

I had the best insurance. The doctors at the time were top rated in obstetrics in the area. They made the decision that kept my kids mom alive. And knew my son would not. Perfectly formed as he was, eyelashes and fingernails. Joshua died in the palm of my hand.

Now. Would life and justice have been served if the law prevented the doctors from making that decision? They said he’d die within 1-3 days no matter what. Would life have been better served if she carried a dying baby in her empty womb in that time. With risk of infection. And certainty of prolonged grief.

Medicine allowed us to have a kid. The next pregnancy she was on bed rest for 6 months. Born healthy. The kid is now a loving caring sweet 14 year old. Genuinely kind teenager who wants to teach special ed. Paints pictures for fun. Those same blastocysts, her bothers and sisters, were probably disposed of unless they are still frozen somewhere.

We live in an age of medical miracles. If we trust that medicine to do surgery on our brains and eyeballs with robot guided lasers, then we trust that medicine to guide us in trying to bring new human beings into the world. Or knowing if we can or cannot.

We trust the experts to make that decision. And trust them to guide our Laws. Trust them to know the right choice to make, and not a book written at a time when one prescribed method for ensuring pregnancy was not in vitro fertilization but methods like:

“To make a not childbearing woman pregnant: flay an edible mouse, open it up, and fill it with myrrh. You dry it in the shade, crush and grind it up, and mix it with fat. You place it in her vagina, and she will become pregnant.”

So. Yes. A democratic vote by misguided people should not have been the determining factor on whether my kids mom lived or died.

And crushing as it was I am glad it was a doctor I trusted who made the decision that allowed me to hold my son as he died.

And not Clarence **** Thomas.

I'm sorry for your loss and did not mean to dredge up such a painful memory for you. One of my closest friends and his wife had a similar experience a few months back, and I see in their faces just how much the situation devastated them; not something you'd want anyone to go through. I won't continue on with the convo out of respect for your situation, we can all just agree to disagree on the subject matter

I'm a sucker for a baby. When I'm down and out, a baby's smile can lift me up, which is why I'm so passionate about it. Dob mentioned that im a bitter person, I am, i admit that. I didn't really get to enjoy a "normal" childhood. I try to share a little bit of that, and Querdicolo mocks it. Lost my wife to COVID at 38, but still have to press on because giving up isn't going to help matters. But yea, when I'm paying five figures in after filing taxes after the astronomical amounts are already taken out of my check, I am upset when I look at the crime rate in the DMV, things like student loan forgiveness, funding PP instead of things that benefit the vast majority of taxpayers, etc.

[Doug_Blew]

Imagine telling a homeless guy to be grateful because in your country there are no toilets.

As far as I can tell, this guy went to a private school paid by his parents...but the system isn't fair for him.

You know what happens when u assume?

Never once went to private school as a child. As mentioned numerous times, a child of hard working immigrants who weren't handed anything in life.

Based on what you said, you went to a private university (AKA School) I only assumed your parents paid for it because you said that you had to pay for your masters (which sounds really tough) and that it worked for your family financially. Here is your quote....

Yes, AFM, as mentioned, I don't have kids in the public education system. I myself went to a private university as well. I went there because that's what worked best financially for my family and myself;

[daoneandonly]

As far as I can tell, this guy went to a private school paid by his parents...but the system isn't fair for him.

You know what happens when u assume?

Never once went to private school as a child. As mentioned numerous times, a child of hard working immigrants who weren't handed anything in life.

Based on what you said, you went to a private university (AKA School) I only assumed your parents paid for it because you said that you had to pay for your masters (which sounds really tough). Here is your quote....

Yes, AFM, as mentioned, I don't have kids in the public education system. I myself went to a private university as well. I went there because that's what worked best financially for my family and myself;

See the miscue now. Yes I did go to a private college, and my parents paid the lion share of it, grateful for that. My point was that private university gave me a scholarship so that made it it make sense financially. But it was not a school I would have otherwise chose or attended if money were not a factor. At the end of the day, I got a degree and made some wonderful friends, and it opened the door for my career, so God, in his awesomeness, turned it into a blessing.

[dobrojim]

No one should mock the difficulties you have experienced. There is the old saying, there but for the grace...

(that said) It probably wont improve your opinion of me to hear me describe myself as somewhere between an
agnostic and an atheist. But I'd like to believe that most anyone who knows me well would say
I have great empathy and compassion for my fellow people, unless/until they show me they don't share
that trait towards me or others themselves. Then I just feel sorry that somehow something went wrong
with them.

Given the positions you advocate for makes one wonder when you say you want to share these awful
experiences, that it's not just telling people about it. To me, you sound callous, AT TIMES, about wishing others
to go through these, or similar awful experiences themselves. I'm grateful I have not had to face similar challenges.

Go back and watch the video I posted on gratitude.

Or

Think of how different our Pres-elect would be if he was grateful for anything. That said, I blame
his parents for much of how he turned out, a malignant narcissist obsessed with revenge against
anyone he perceived may have disagreed with him or crossed him at some past point in time.
He's a miserable person.

But the first of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People is being proactive which the author (Covey)
describes as understanding that no matter how awful your circumstances are, you decide on
your course of action in how to deal with those circumstances. Covey cites Viktor Frankel, author
of Man's Search for Meaning, and concentrration camp survivor, as an example of someone who
exemplifies proactivity.

[daoneandonly]

Im not sure where I said I wish bad things on others or how that could have been construed, but please feel free to point it out in case I inadvertently did and just not aware. Much of what I shared was I guess to give a background of why I am upset, not to garner any sympathy as I do not know anyone here and will never meet any in person. I personally do not think its callous to want to see those who commit crimes punished to the fullest extent of the law, for people to, for the most part, pay their own way and pay for what's theirs, and for there to be a level of accountability in every aspect of life.

[dobrojim]

The policies you advocate for you justify by saying people want free stuff and/or don't deserve things.
In some cases you mentioned that you didn't get those things as if that meant no one else deserved them
either. It's as if you were saying, my life sucked. Yours should too.

[daoneandonly]

Okay. I can respectfully agree to disagree. For me, it was more if there's evidence that people can come out of circumstances without much government help, hence the onus on the taxpayer, then the government and tax money should not be so heavily involved in as many matters as it is.

College is way more expensive than it should be, no argument. But there are options to make it work. Community colleges are not particularly expensive, and one can do a couple of years there to get the basic credits out of the way and transfer accordingly. That's not really frowned upon as it was in my time or those before. And yes now that I'm paying more than my weight/share in taxes, it frustrates me to know how it is being used. If you feel that makes me callous and a bad person, I guess it is what it is.

[queridiculo]

Dob mentioned that im a bitter person, I am, i admit that. I didn't really get to enjoy a "normal" childhood. I try to share a little bit of that, and Querdicolo mocks it

I have not ONCE, mocked you with respect to your health issues.

What I have done repeatedly is point out that you are a hypocrite for consistently arguing against policies that you are the beneficiary of.

You are a miserable twat, plain and simple.

[daoneandonly]

Dob mentioned that im a bitter person, I am, i admit that. I didn't really get to enjoy a "normal" childhood. I try to share a little bit of that, and Querdicolo mocks it

I have not ONCE, mocked you with respect to your health issues.

What I have done repeatedly is point out that you are a hypocrite for consistently arguing against policies that you are the beneficiary of.

You are a miserable twat, plain and simple.

Yeah, come join the bitter callous party. Easy to call names and whine from overseas without paying a lick in taxes and contributing to America.

[Fairview4Life]

Okay. I can respectfully agree to disagree. For me, it was more if there's evidence that people can come out of circumstances without much government help, hence the onus on the taxpayer, then the government and tax money should not be so heavily involved in as many matters as it is.

College is way more expensive than it should be, no argument. But there are options to make it work. Community colleges are not particularly expensive, and one can do a couple of years there to get the basic credits out of the way and transfer accordingly. That's not really frowned upon as it was in my time or those before. And yes now that I'm paying more than my weight/share in taxes, it frustrates me to know how it is being used. If you feel that makes me callous and a bad person, I guess it is what it is.

If it would help you get over this "I got mine, **** you" ladder pulling you seem to be mired in - you will personally benefit if there are more healthy Americans walking around. And there are more poor people that have a little more money to spend, increasing demand for products and services you would have a hand in delivering, as a productive richer person who managed to do everything on your own. And the roads are better maintained so the goods and services you provide can get to market faster with less damage. And there are less cars on the road to get in the way of the goods and services you are shipping to your customers. And people in rural locations have access to very cheap postal services so they can receive your shipped goods and services. And they have access to high speed internet so they can go online to order goods and services from you. And their kids have food so they can pay more attention in class and become productive members of society with money to buy more goods and services from you. And and and and and and and and. This is how societies function.

[daoneandonly]

Okay. I can respectfully agree to disagree. For me, it was more if there's evidence that people can come out of circumstances without much government help, hence the onus on the taxpayer, then the government and tax money should not be so heavily involved in as many matters as it is.

College is way more expensive than it should be, no argument. But there are options to make it work. Community colleges are not particularly expensive, and one can do a couple of years there to get the basic credits out of the way and transfer accordingly. That's not really frowned upon as it was in my time or those before. And yes now that I'm paying more than my weight/share in taxes, it frustrates me to know how it is being used. If you feel that makes me callous and a bad person, I guess it is what it is.

If it would help you get over this "I got mine, **** you" ladder pulling you seem to be mired in - you will personally benefit if there are more healthy Americans walking around. And there are more poor people that have a little more money to spend, increasing demand for products and services you would have a hand in delivering, as a productive richer person who managed to do everything on your own. And the roads are better maintained so the goods and services you provide can get to market faster with less damage. And there are less cars on the road to get in the way of the goods and services you are shipping to your customers. And people in rural locations have access to very cheap postal services so they can receive your shipped goods and services. And they have access to high speed internet so they can go online to order goods and services from you. And their kids have food so they can pay more attention in class and become productive members of society with money to buy more goods and services from you. And and and and and and and and. This is how societies function.

Its not an I got mine thing. It's people who game the system, who take resources they're more than able to attain themselves, are in effect stealing from those truly in need. Those who are less fortunate through no fault of their own. The latter are the folks who truly deserve help, not a blanket catchall. I as a taxpayer and more a human, have a problem with that.

Take Biden's recent student debt proposal; why the heck should someone making $120K get a student loan wipeout? Good grief, pay for your debts through your nice salary.

[Fairview4Life]

Okay. I can respectfully agree to disagree. For me, it was more if there's evidence that people can come out of circumstances without much government help, hence the onus on the taxpayer, then the government and tax money should not be so heavily involved in as many matters as it is.

College is way more expensive than it should be, no argument. But there are options to make it work. Community colleges are not particularly expensive, and one can do a couple of years there to get the basic credits out of the way and transfer accordingly. That's not really frowned upon as it was in my time or those before. And yes now that I'm paying more than my weight/share in taxes, it frustrates me to know how it is being used. If you feel that makes me callous and a bad person, I guess it is what it is.

If it would help you get over this "I got mine, **** you" ladder pulling you seem to be mired in - you will personally benefit if there are more healthy Americans walking around. And there are more poor people that have a little more money to spend, increasing demand for products and services you would have a hand in delivering, as a productive richer person who managed to do everything on your own. And the roads are better maintained so the goods and services you provide can get to market faster with less damage. And there are less cars on the road to get in the way of the goods and services you are shipping to your customers. And people in rural locations have access to very cheap postal services so they can receive your shipped goods and services. And they have access to high speed internet so they can go online to order goods and services from you. And their kids have food so they can pay more attention in class and become productive members of society with money to buy more goods and services from you. And and and and and and and and. This is how societies function.

Its not an I got mine thing. It's people who game the system, who take resources they're more than able to attain themselves, are in effect stealing from those truly in need. Those who are less fortunate through no fault of their own. The latter are the folks who truly deserve help, not a blanket catchall. I as a taxpayer and more a human, have a problem with that.

Take Biden's recent student debt proposal; why the heck should someone making $120K get a student loan wipeout? Good grief, pay for your debts through your nice salary.

I have very bad news about who is actually "gaming the system". It isn't poor people on welfare or even someone making $120k/year with a large amount of debt. But again, I will point out the obvious benefit to you, personally, if the $120k/year person has some or all of their federal student loan wiped out. They now have a whole lot more income to afford to pay in taxes that will fund things you care about (both by not needing the student loan interest credit and in various sales taxes), and they can afford to buy more goods and services from you. And all it took was the government recognizing their investment in that very productive person worked out pretty well and making a little one on a screen go to zero.