Wembanyama. I'm concerned

[K N U C K L E S]

It has to be green font, right? Right?

[K N U C K L E S]

How the hell he forgot Yao Ming, one of the most globally popular players ever is not something I understand.

I just forgot his name and when I was trying to remember it, that guy Linn who played for the Knicks ~10 years ago got in the way.

[HotRocks34]

Tough ending last night in Chicago for Vic and the Spurs.

Wemby came back in the game with 3:19 left and the Spurs up 110-103.

From that point forward the Bulls went on an 11-0 run to end the contest, Vic went 0/3 (0/2 from three) and Coby White got the final two Chicago buckets against Wemby.

The Spurs are a younger squad still learning how to win, so this kind of thing will likely happen from time to time.

[dhsilv2]

Robinson was older than Wemby as a rookie but he put up:

24/12/2/1/3
26 PER; .241 WS48; 6.9 BPM
ROY
6th in MVP voting

Robinson was a freak.

Part of the problem for him was that Jordan and Olajuwon were around.

Indeed.

David Robinson is largely forgotten as an all time great...for whatever reason.

Having guys like Avery Johnson as your point guard didn't exactly give him spacing in his prime.

[Jamaaliver]

Having guys like Avery Johnson has your point guard didn't exactly give him spacing in his prime.

Agreed.

To the team's credit, they did feature Old Man Dale Ellis and young Vinny Del Negro in an attempt to space the floor.

But they didn't offer much else than catch and shoot threats -- particularly during the playoffs.

[dhsilv2]

Having guys like Avery Johnson has your point guard didn't exactly give him spacing in his prime.

Agreed.

To the team's credit, they did feature Old Man Dale Ellis and young Vinny Del Negro in an attempt to space the floor.

But they didn't offer much else than catch and shoot threats -- particularly during the playoffs.

Of course in his MVP season that everyone always references with Dream...he also had Rodman on the floor. I wonder who faced more double teams? Hakeem with a wheel spoke 3 point shooting power house...or the guy with Johnson and Rodman

But yes, they did have some shooting for sure.

[Jamaaliver]

Of course in his MVP season that everyone always references with Dream...he also had Rodman on the floor. I wonder who faced more double teams? Hakeem with a wheel spoke 3 point shooting power house...or the guy with Johnson and Rodman

But yes, they did have some shooting for sure.

The irony there:

25 years from now, kids will talk about how Victor still put elite numbers with a one-legged Chris Paul and pink-haired Jeremy Sochan clogging the paint.

[Kineto]

Having guys like Avery Johnson has your point guard didn't exactly give him spacing in his prime.

Agreed.

To the team's credit, they did feature Old Man Dale Ellis and young Vinny Del Negro in an attempt to space the floor.

But they didn't offer much else than catch and shoot threats -- particularly during the playoffs.

I'm not really good at NBA tactics, but I try to listen to those who are, and what I understand is that spacing wasn't much of an issue at that time, because of the illegal defence, which forced defenders to stay close to there men even if they were poor shooters.

[Jamaaliver]

I'm not really good at NBA tactics, but I try to listen to those who are, and what I understand is that spacing wasn't much of an issue at that time, because of the illegal defence, which forced defenders to stay close to there men even if they were poor shooters.

Sounds right.

But big men dominated in the post in that era. Defenders could double team the Centers in the paint as soon as he caught the pass.

Having catch-and-shoot players standing in a single spot, wide open, waiting for the pass was the best way to punish teams when they double teamed.

Shaq had Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Derek Fisher in LA. Nick Anderson in Orlando.
Olajuwon had Robert Horry and Sam Cassell.
Karl Malone had Jeff Hornacek, John Stockton and Byron Russell.


Spurs struggled for years to find the right 3 & D players to complement their HOF big men.

[DwayneSchintzus]

Having guys like Avery Johnson has your point guard didn't exactly give him spacing in his prime.

Agreed.

To the team's credit, they did feature Old Man Dale Ellis and young Vinny Del Negro in an attempt to space the floor.

But they didn't offer much else than catch and shoot threats -- particularly during the playoffs.

I'm not really good at NBA tactics, but I try to listen to those who are, and what I understand is that spacing wasn't much of an issue at that time, because of the illegal defence, which forced defenders to stay close to there men even if they were poor shooters.

Illegal defense in that time still allowed you to double, but you had to "hard double". You couldn't camp in no-man's-land clogging the spacing.

Those teams didn't really have the spacing to make defenses pay, so it was a hard double and then the defense would rotate to the shooters.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Spurs are 9-5 without Sochan, and 9-13 with him. Is he in the lineup just to ensure that they don't win enough so they can be in the lottery?

[dhsilv2]

I'm not really good at NBA tactics, but I try to listen to those who are, and what I understand is that spacing wasn't much of an issue at that time, because of the illegal defence, which forced defenders to stay close to there men even if they were poor shooters.

Sounds right.

But big men dominated in the post in that era. Defenders could double team the Centers in the paint as soon as he caught the pass.

Having catch-and-shoot players standing in a single spot, wide open, waiting for the pass was the best way to punish teams when they double teamed.

Shaq had Robert Horry, Rick Fox and Derek Fisher in LA. Nick Anderson in Orlando.
Olajuwon had Robert Horry and Sam Cassell.
Karl Malone had Jeff Hornacek, John Stockton and Byron Russell.


Spurs struggled for years to find the right 3 & D players to complement their HOF big men.

If anyone wants a good break down on how this can be manipulated there are some great things done on the Bulls Jazz series. But defacto Pippen was moved to guard the Jazz big men often. Because the Jazz's pick and roll game was effectively splitting the court and running a 2 man game with Stockton and Malone, Pippen would sag off and go right to the limits of his "legal defending area" and often...a few feet past it. Just completely ignoring his "man". This allowed the bulls to turn the Jazz's 2 on 2 game into 2 on 2 and a half. As the jazz big men couldn't knock down those mid range jumpers, this was perfect.

So back to Robinson who was somewhat a defacto face up center more so than a post up one...he did both of course. Well you have him facing up with Avery Johnson wanting to occupy the same arch location as where Robinson would setup (about 12-16 feet out)...you have a second defender now closer than is ideal. Then when Rodman was there...you just a free agent roaming because all you had to worry about with Rodman were the boards.

So yeah, it was always less an issue with man rules but teams still doubled, teams still cheated and attempted to get away with zone, and some teams really wanted to play 15 feet and in...and that's tight just to have 10 guys standing around that close together. Think about covid and those 6 foot rules. 10 guys all inside 18 feet is really tight.

[ryguy613]

Every time I see this thread still going strong

[Rust_Cohle]

Spurs are 9-5 without Sochan, and 9-13 with him. Is he in the lineup just to ensure that they don't win enough so they can be in the lottery?

He's been absolutely fantastic on the defensive end and is coming back from injury. Spurs have been playing tougher teams with Sochan in the lineup than without. Their next 5 games will be brutal. Sochan has his issues (like no jumpshot whatsoever even though he can get hot from time to time) but he has easily been the most improved Spur outside of Wemby. His 2 man game with Wemby is only second best to Wemby and Paul.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Spurs are 9-5 without Sochan, and 9-13 with him. Is he in the lineup just to ensure that they don't win enough so they can be in the lottery?

He's been absolutely fantastic on the defensive end and is coming back from injury. Spurs have been playing tougher teams with Sochan in the lineup than without. Their next 5 games will be brutal. Sochan has his issues (like no jumpshot whatsoever even though he can get hot from time to time) but he has easily been the most improved Spur outside of Wemby. His 2 man game with Wemby is only second best to Wemby and Paul.

The lack of a jumpshot is the biggest issue, he plays a good two-man game with Victor because teams are much more willing to sacrifice 2 points to him than they would with whatever Victor might do with the ball. I get that he's a solid defender, but that team simply looks like a modern basketball team when they have either Champagnie or Castle in the lineup without him. They are able to play 5 out when Sochan isn't in, he hangs out around the dunkers spot which makes it too easy for a team with the right personnel to park their center on him and guard Wemby with a wing.

[Castle Black]

Spurs are 9-5 without Sochan, and 9-13 with him. Is he in the lineup just to ensure that they don't win enough so they can be in the lottery?

He's been absolutely fantastic on the defensive end and is coming back from injury. Spurs have been playing tougher teams with Sochan in the lineup than without. Their next 5 games will be brutal. Sochan has his issues (like no jumpshot whatsoever even though he can get hot from time to time) but he has easily been the most improved Spur outside of Wemby. His 2 man game with Wemby is only second best to Wemby and Paul.

The lack of a jumpshot is the biggest issue, he plays a good two-man game with Victor because teams are much more willing to sacrifice 2 points to him than they would with whatever Victor might do with the ball. I get that he's a solid defender, but that team simply looks like a modern basketball team when they have either Champagnie or Castle in the lineup without him. They are able to play 5 out when Sochan isn't in, he hangs out around the dunkers spot which makes it too easy for a team with the right personnel to park their center on him and guard Wemby with a wing.

Sochan definitely has a place in this league, but his lack of size and lack of a consistent jump shot definitely hurt him. He needs to continue to improve his 3-point shot, that’s really the goal here with him. Still only 21 though and a good utility player who’s switchable on Defense, so he has a role. Would probably be best served coming off the bench though in the long run.

[SNPA]

100 pages…I have yet to see any reason for concern.

[tsherkin]

David Robinson is largely forgotten as an all time great...for whatever reason.

TBF, it isn't "for whatever reason."

It's that he struggled as a scorer in the playoffs and has a shorter prime than a lot of others due to injury. And that he languished on poorly-constructed San Antonio squads pre-Duncan, so he doesn't have the same sort of team achievements. And he has a high-profile series being embarrassed by Olajuwon at the latter's peak. It is, perhaps, given too much weight because loads of guys have a bad series (Shaq getting swept by Utah, Jordan struggling to score efficiently against the Pistons, Knicks and Jazz), Tragic Johnson, Bird's early and disastrous playoffs (especially against Philly and the Bucks), and on and on.

But for D-Rob, lots of stuff lines up together and it pushes him down. He was a beast in the RS, he's an ATG defender and he teamed well with Duncan late, but there are indeed reasons why he doesn't get quite the same love as some others.

[Jamaaliver]

TBF, it isn't "for whatever reason."

It's that he struggled as a scorer in the playoffs and has a shorter prime than a lot of others due to injury. And that he languished on poorly-constructed San Antonio squads pre-Duncan, so he doesn't have the same sort of team achievements. And he has a high-profile series being embarrassed by Olajuwon at the latter's peak. It is, perhaps, given too much weight because loads of guys have a bad series (Shaq getting swept by Utah, Jordan struggling to score efficiently against the Pistons, Knicks and Jazz), Tragic Johnson, Bird's early and disastrous playoffs (especially against Philly and the Bucks), and on and on.

But for D-Rob, lots of stuff lines up together and it pushes him down. He was a beast in the RS, he's an ATG defender and he teamed well with Duncan late, but there are indeed reasons why he doesn't get quite the same love as some others.

[tsherkin]

TBF, it isn't "for whatever reason."

It's that he struggled as a scorer in the playoffs and has a shorter prime than a lot of others due to injury. And that he languished on poorly-constructed San Antonio squads pre-Duncan, so he doesn't have the same sort of team achievements. And he has a high-profile series being embarrassed by Olajuwon at the latter's peak. It is, perhaps, given too much weight because loads of guys have a bad series (Shaq getting swept by Utah, Jordan struggling to score efficiently against the Pistons, Knicks and Jazz), Tragic Johnson, Bird's early and disastrous playoffs (especially against Philly and the Bucks), and on and on.

But for D-Rob, lots of stuff lines up together and it pushes him down. He was a beast in the RS, he's an ATG defender and he teamed well with Duncan late, but there are indeed reasons why he doesn't get quite the same love as some others.

LOL.

I mean, I think anyone who has passing knowledge of him respects that when he was healthy, he was an ATG talent who got shorted by the franchise in terms of what they put around him. He had a little of what Lebron had, was too good for the franchise too quickly so they couldn't stock picks and all that. Willie Anderson, Sean Elliott, Tracy Murray (who went to Portland), Bill Curley (who went to Detroit), Corey Alexander... those were the only first round picks they made between D-Rob and Duncan. Which is bawlz.

I just meant to illustrate that he lags behind in conversation for some pretty clear reasons. He was still wild to watch in his hey-day. Like, I watched Robinson out in transition Euro step on guys. Dude was one of the few quadruple double threats. He was a beast.