PG: Embarrassing loss to ORL

[WaltFrazier]

Looks like opponents are game planning around Thibs playing a tight rotation and the team wearing down in the 4th

https://www.nydailynews.com/2025/01/07/tom-thibodeau-magic-knicks-rotation/

[HerSports85]

Looks like opponents are game planning around Thibs playing a tight rotation and the team wearing down in the 4th

https://www.nydailynews.com/2025/01/07/tom-thibodeau-magic-knicks-rotation/

[thebuzzardman]

Looks like opponents are game planning around Thibs playing a tight rotation and the team wearing down in the 4th

https://www.nydailynews.com/2025/01/07/tom-thibodeau-magic-knicks-rotation/

Awesome how it worked out, where Orlando swept the Knicks and the Knicks have three wins all season. Who are the Nets drafting with the Knicks high lottery pick?

[HerSports85]

Looks like opponents are game planning around Thibs playing a tight rotation and the team wearing down in the 4th

https://www.nydailynews.com/2025/01/07/tom-thibodeau-magic-knicks-rotation/

Awesome how it worked out, where Orlando swept the Knicks and the Knicks have three wins all season. Who are the Nets drafting with the Knicks high lottery pick?

[kNicksGmen]

Its comparing teams injuries, the Knicks dont exist in a vacuum. The Celtics had an important starter KP miss almost the whole season and the playoffs last year but they still won because they had that much talent. Players will play through injuries all the time on other teams. Our team has no depth so any injury will be felt more even though its less than most teams. The Thunder's backup center is IHart, ours is Jericho Sims

comping to the celtics and OKC isn't fair - the 2 most stacked teams maybe in league history. Ihart is their starter also, not a backup. even when Chet comes back, Ihart is playing 30 minutes and closing most games.

the list you posted is nonsense. #1 team is suns which missed 74 games. knicks 25th with.... 75 missed games lol. it's based on salary as if that is a correlation to best players.

Salary usually indicates the most important players. Kevin Durant and Beal missing 10 games each on the Suns this season is more important than the games Landry Shamet and Precious missed that's why the Suns are higher on the list.

How is it fair to expect Thibs to keep pace with OKC and the Celtics when they have historically stacked rosters while our fans are begging for the 58th pick to be in the rotation?

i didn't realize this list was for this year, thought it was last. last year knicks were 10th so... yea. either way it's not a black and white numbers tell the story argument. a lot of the concern with minutes is fatigue - both within games (knicks have by fast worst 4th quarter net rating) or later in the season/playoffs - guys being burned out.

i'm not saying it's fair to expect thibs to keep pace with OKC or the celtics. it's just an argument of logic for the long term vs all out for the short term.

[Gravy]

comping to the celtics and OKC isn't fair - the 2 most stacked teams maybe in league history. Ihart is their starter also, not a backup. even when Chet comes back, Ihart is playing 30 minutes and closing most games.

the list you posted is nonsense. #1 team is suns which missed 74 games. knicks 25th with.... 75 missed games lol. it's based on salary as if that is a correlation to best players.

Salary usually indicates the most important players. Kevin Durant and Beal missing 10 games each on the Suns this season is more important than the games Landry Shamet and Precious missed that's why the Suns are higher on the list.

How is it fair to expect Thibs to keep pace with OKC and the Celtics when they have historically stacked rosters while our fans are begging for the 58th pick to be in the rotation?

i didn't realize this list was for this year, thought it was last. last year knicks were 10th so... yea. either way it's not a black and white numbers tell the story argument. a lot of the concern with minutes is fatigue - both within games (knicks have by fast worst 4th quarter net rating) or later in the season/playoffs - guys being burned out.

i'm not saying it's fair to expect thibs to keep pace with OKC or the celtics. it's just an argument of logic for the long term vs all out for the short term.

The bench cant hold on to a lead. Even when its a garbage time blow out the bench will take a 30+pt lead down to 12 and Thibs will have to think about putting the starters back in. This is one of the worst benches I've ever seen in the NBA.

[kNicksGmen]

Salary usually indicates the most important players. Kevin Durant and Beal missing 10 games each on the Suns this season is more important than the games Landry Shamet and Precious missed that's why the Suns are higher on the list.

How is it fair to expect Thibs to keep pace with OKC and the Celtics when they have historically stacked rosters while our fans are begging for the 58th pick to be in the rotation?

i didn't realize this list was for this year, thought it was last. last year knicks were 10th so... yea. either way it's not a black and white numbers tell the story argument. a lot of the concern with minutes is fatigue - both within games (knicks have by fast worst 4th quarter net rating) or later in the season/playoffs - guys being burned out.

i'm not saying it's fair to expect thibs to keep pace with OKC or the celtics. it's just an argument of logic for the long term vs all out for the short term.

The bench cant hold on to a lead. Even when its a garbage time blow out the bench will take a 30+pt lead down to 12 and Thibs will have to think about putting the starters back in. This is one of the worst benches I've ever seen in the NBA.

the numbers don't back that up. 1st of all the "bench" never plays. it's usually 2 bench guys in at once at most.

the complete end of game garbage time bench blowing leads has happened like once, because thibs never actually plays the full bench. usually it's the starters blowing big leads in the 4th because they take their foot off the gas or are just tired.

[Gravy]

i didn't realize this list was for this year, thought it was last. last year knicks were 10th so... yea. either way it's not a black and white numbers tell the story argument. a lot of the concern with minutes is fatigue - both within games (knicks have by fast worst 4th quarter net rating) or later in the season/playoffs - guys being burned out.

i'm not saying it's fair to expect thibs to keep pace with OKC or the celtics. it's just an argument of logic for the long term vs all out for the short term.

The bench cant hold on to a lead. Even when its a garbage time blow out the bench will take a 30+pt lead down to 12 and Thibs will have to think about putting the starters back in. This is one of the worst benches I've ever seen in the NBA.

the numbers don't back that up. 1st of all the "bench" never plays. it's usually 2 bench guys in at once at most.

the complete end of game garbage time bench blowing leads has happened like once, because thibs never actually plays the full bench. usually it's the starters blowing big leads in the 4th because they take their foot off the gas or are just tired.

You sure bout that?

[kNicksGmen]

The bench cant hold on to a lead. Even when its a garbage time blow out the bench will take a 30+pt lead down to 12 and Thibs will have to think about putting the starters back in. This is one of the worst benches I've ever seen in the NBA.

the numbers don't back that up. 1st of all the "bench" never plays. it's usually 2 bench guys in at once at most.

the complete end of game garbage time bench blowing leads has happened like once, because thibs never actually plays the full bench. usually it's the starters blowing big leads in the 4th because they take their foot off the gas or are just tired.

You sure bout that?

Yes

[Gravy]

the numbers don't back that up. 1st of all the "bench" never plays. it's usually 2 bench guys in at once at most.

the complete end of game garbage time bench blowing leads has happened like once, because thibs never actually plays the full bench. usually it's the starters blowing big leads in the 4th because they take their foot off the gas or are just tired.

You sure bout that?

Yes

You must have missed the Raptors game because it went nothing like that story you said.

[DOT]

When the original comment about the end of bench blowing leads happened, here were the last few times the bench had been subbed in at the end:

Against the Bulls on 1/4, went +0 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Wizards on 12/30, went +4 in 1.75 minutes
Vs Raptors on 12/23, went -1 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Wolves on 12/19, went -1 in 2 minutes
Vs Pistons on 12/7, went +4 in 4 minutes
Vs Hornets on 12/5, went -2 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Magic on 12/3, went -6 in 3 minutes
Vs Pelicans on 12/1, went -6 in 9 minutes

So the prior month, they hadn't had a +/- of worse than -5, and in the two instances that happened since December 1st one was a game we won by 15 and the other we won by 33. All in all, the end of bench guys were -8 in 24.25 minutes from December 1st to January 4th. Even including last night, they're at -20 in 26.75 minutes since December 1st, or less than 1 point per minute including the one big outlier. The idea they're constantly blowing huge leads is just completely unfounded on anything other than preconceived notions and a cult-like desire to defend a personal deity

I mean, I know these are unserious people just trolling, because when you say something hasn't happened to that point and someone waits for it to happen to be all "A HA, SEE, IT DID IN FACT HAPPEN, I WIN!!!", that's just really unserious behavior

[kNicksGmen]

You sure bout that?

Yes

You must have missed the Raptors game because it went nothing like that story you said.

They blew a 30 point lead and thibs had to put the starters back in like you referenced?

Or it was 10 points and Knicks still won by 14?

[kNicksGmen]

When the original comment about the end of bench blowing leads happened, here were the last few times the bench had been subbed in at the end:

Against the Bulls on 1/4, went +0 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Wizards on 12/30, went +4 in 1.75 minutes
Vs Raptors on 12/23, went -1 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Wolves on 12/19, went -1 in 2 minutes
Vs Pistons on 12/7, went +4 in 4 minutes
Vs Hornets on 12/5, went -2 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Magic on 12/3, went -6 in 3 minutes
Vs Pelicans on 12/1, went -6 in 9 minutes

So the prior month, they hadn't had a +/- of worse than -5, and in the two instances that happened since December 1st one was a game we won by 15 and the other we won by 33. All in all, the end of bench guys were -8 in 24.25 minutes from December 1st to January 4th. Even including last night, they're at -20 in 26.75 minutes since December 1st, or less than 1 point per minute including the one big outlier. The idea they're constantly blowing huge leads is just completely unfounded on anything other than preconceived notions and a cult-like desire to defend a personal deity

I mean, I know these are unserious people just trolling, because when you say something hasn't happened to that point and someone waits for it to happen to be all "A HA, SEE, IT DID IN FACT HAPPEN, I WIN!!!", that's just really unserious behavior

Bing bong

Thanks for the research.

Most of the times the Knicks blew big leads in the 4th of games was when only 2 or 3 bench guys were in. Like the nets game or Denver game. Guys took their foot off the gas up 20+ and let it get down to 12-15 and as a result thibs has the starters finish the game and play like 40 mins.

[Gravy]

Yes

You must have missed the Raptors game because it went nothing like that story you said.

They blew a 30 point lead and thibs had to put the starters back in like you referenced?

Or it was 10 points and Knicks still won by 14?

Someone said the bench came in and the Raptors scored 12 points in 2 minutes while our bench did not score at all. Might have to double check those numbers though

[Jalen Bluntson]

When the original comment about the end of bench blowing leads happened, here were the last few times the bench had been subbed in at the end:

Against the Bulls on 1/4, went +0 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Wizards on 12/30, went +4 in 1.75 minutes
Vs Raptors on 12/23, went -1 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Wolves on 12/19, went -1 in 2 minutes
Vs Pistons on 12/7, went +4 in 4 minutes
Vs Hornets on 12/5, went -2 in 1.5 minutes
Vs Magic on 12/3, went -6 in 3 minutes
Vs Pelicans on 12/1, went -6 in 9 minutes

So the prior month, they hadn't had a +/- of worse than -5, and in the two instances that happened since December 1st one was a game we won by 15 and the other we won by 33. All in all, the end of bench guys were -8 in 24.25 minutes from December 1st to January 4th. Even including last night, they're at -20 in 26.75 minutes since December 1st, or less than 1 point per minute including the one big outlier. The idea they're constantly blowing huge leads is just completely unfounded on anything other than preconceived notions and a cult-like desire to defend a personal deity

I mean, I know these are unserious people just trolling, because when you say something hasn't happened to that point and someone waits for it to happen to be all "A HA, SEE, IT DID IN FACT HAPPEN, I WIN!!!", that's just really unserious behavior

Beautiful research. The fact that people want to compare garbage time to bench minutes is another ridiculous tactic used to support their baseless arguments. Or they reference load management. Or they use one game sample sizes. Etc etc. It's comically ridiculous at times.

The issue normal, intelligent people have with Thibs lack of using the bench is because we saw players get injured as a result AND we lose games because of it. We are the worst 4th qtr team in the league and we have lost several games this season due to fatigue. Other teams are OPENLY commenting on their strategy to run at us late in the game because they KNOW we will be tired. We just got ran off the court by third string G League players a few games ago and we watched KAT get hurt playing massive minutes in B2BS and we lost both of those games in the end as well.

[kNicksGmen]

You must have missed the Raptors game because it went nothing like that story you said.

They blew a 30 point lead and thibs had to put the starters back in like you referenced?

Or it was 10 points and Knicks still won by 14?

Someone said the bench came in and the Raptors scored 12 points in 2 minutes while our bench did not score at all. Might have to double check those numbers though

let me remind you what i quoted - which are your words

The bench cant hold on to a lead. Even when its a garbage time blow out the bench will take a 30+pt lead down to 12 and Thibs will have to think about putting the starters back in. This is one of the worst benches I've ever seen in the NBA.

[Gravy]

They blew a 30 point lead and thibs had to put the starters back in like you referenced?

Or it was 10 points and Knicks still won by 14?

Someone said the bench came in and the Raptors scored 12 points in 2 minutes while our bench did not score at all. Might have to double check those numbers though

let me remind you what i quoted - which are your words

The bench cant hold on to a lead. Even when its a garbage time blow out the bench will take a 30+pt lead down to 12 and Thibs will have to think about putting the starters back in. This is one of the worst benches I've ever seen in the NBA.

Thats what happened in the Raptors game, scored 12 straight but it was only 2 minutes left so no chance of them winning. Of course all the fans are crying at this point. When you extrapolate; if Thibs emptied the bench at 5 minutes we would have lost, at 6 minutes we would have been blown out

[Jalen Bluntson]

Someone said the bench came in and the Raptors scored 12 points in 2 minutes while our bench did not score at all. Might have to double check those numbers though

let me remind you what i quoted - which are your words

The bench cant hold on to a lead. Even when its a garbage time blow out the bench will take a 30+pt lead down to 12 and Thibs will have to think about putting the starters back in. This is one of the worst benches I've ever seen in the NBA.

Thats what happened in the Raptors game, scored 12 straight but it was only 2 minutes left so no chance of them winning. Of course all the fans are crying at this point. When you extrapolate; if Thibs emptied the bench at 5 minutes we would have lost, at 6 minutes we would have been blown out

When you look at it without bias though, you can call it for what it was. Dumb. He emptied the bench of players he never plays and expects some sort of results? How about giving Payne/Shamet/Precious a few more minutes to run together? No. He goes with Kolek/Toppin/Ryan/Sims. Guys who haven't played in weeks. Guys who he refuses to play every single game. Now it's a good idea to put them all on the floor together with a dude who just got back from missing the entire season a few games prior? Absolutely ridiculous.

It's also completely disingenuous to say Thibs put the bench in and they blew the lead. At no point in this season have any of them been considered the bench by the HC. They are the 11-14 guys on the roster that he refuses to play. Had he been trying to use them when we needed to rest players throughout the season, maybe they perform a little better having some game experience and chemistry. A rookie a g league player a scrub and a volleyball player. Ridiculous.

[Adelheid]

tsk tsk tsk...

[Gravy]

let me remind you what i quoted - which are your words

Thats what happened in the Raptors game, scored 12 straight but it was only 2 minutes left so no chance of them winning. Of course all the fans are crying at this point. When you extrapolate; if Thibs emptied the bench at 5 minutes we would have lost, at 6 minutes we would have been blown out

When you look at it without bias though, you can call it for what it was. Dumb. He emptied the bench of players he never plays and expects some sort of results? How about giving Payne/Shamet/Precious a few more minutes to run together? No. He goes with Kolek/Toppin/Ryan/Sims. Guys who haven't played in weeks. Guys who he refuses to play every single game. Now it's a good idea to put them all on the floor together with a dude who just got back from missing the entire season a few games prior? Absolutely ridiculous.

It's also completely disingenuous to say Thibs put the bench in and they blew the lead. At no point in this season have any of them been considered the bench by the HC. They are the 11-14 guys on the roster that he refuses to play. Had he been trying to use them when we needed to rest players throughout the season, maybe they perform a little better having some game experience and chemistry. A rookie a g league player a scrub and a volleyball player. Ridiculous.

This bench is so trash, could not even score 1 point. So many Knicks fans defending scrubs who would barely play in Europe. No wonder yall loved Frank so much "an unnatural allegiance to losers"