Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Scase]

I think you guys are missing the point of that tweet. It’s not about catering to Scottie from the moment he got drafted.

It’s more so about Masai wasting everyone’s time with the 2 timeline crap he tried to pull off and got absolutely nothing out of it outside of delaying the obvious timeline which was the rebuild.

Teams like the Thunder, Magic, Rockets, Cavs, Detroit, etc etc stocked up on young talent while we bled away assets.

Warriors are on the other spectrum of what Masai did. They held on to their young guys at the expense of surrounding Curry with win now players and now they have nothing to show for it.

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

This is way off base. The Cavs didn't magically get better going all in after, they literally had 3 years of top 10 picks (8th 5th, and 5th OA) before they got Mobley with the 3rd. They traded Sexton (8th pick), Ochai (14th pick) and Lauri + picks for Mitchell. Garland is basically their second best player that they drafted 5th, as well as picking up Allen for peanuts when he was 22. Their team was stacked with young players/top 10 picks either from drafting or trading. They didn't just draft Mobley and then trade for Mitchell and call it a day, wtf is this synopsis?

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Those 2 teams prioritized high draft picks and youth, then they picked up vets or made a big trade AFTER they had those. We had a single high pick and tried to make it work with a mid core. Get out of here with this utterly made up history, holy hell.

I think you guys are missing the point of that tweet. It’s not about catering to Scottie from the moment he got drafted.

It’s more so about Masai wasting everyone’s time with the 2 timeline crap he tried to pull off and got absolutely nothing out of it outside of delaying the obvious timeline which was the rebuild.

Teams like the Thunder, Magic, Rockets, Cavs, Detroit, etc etc stocked up on young talent while we bled away assets.

Warriors are on the other spectrum of what Masai did. They held on to their young guys at the expense of surrounding Curry with win now players and now they have nothing to show for it.

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

All you need is 2 young guys at the very least to hit.

Garland X Mobley is great building block to build from.

Sengun, Tari, Amen, Green, Jabari are all very solid building blocks to help support.

Franz, Suggs, Paolo.

Chet, JDub, SGA.

Meanwhile we tried to skip the process by bringing in an inefficient non defender in RJ and a 25 year old combo guard who’s shown flashes of great play but nothing amazing. The only other lotto pick we drafted since Scottie is Gradey.

The attempt to rewrite history and ignore reality is insane.

[YogurtProducer]

All this experimenting should have been in his first 2-3 years into the league. It’s why I laughed at people bringing up Paolo and Cade’s efficiency issues.

That’s what exactly what you’re supposed to do in your first 2 years. Explore your game, try to figure out your go to spots in which you’re comfortable at and work on your weaknesses. It’s supposed to look ugly and inefficient. The payoff is down the line when you’re in year 4/5, you’re comfortable with handling the ball under pressure, you’re comfortable taking difficult shots, you’re able to manage a game more maturely. You don’t have to experiment by then, you’re simply working on refinement and reps.

Yeah... Cade and Banchero both still have efficiecny issues I am gonna need to see more than 5 games of Paolo this year before we can say he is efficient.

At the very least, we’d have enough data to know he isn’t capable of being a lead ball handler or #1 option way before so we could plan accordingly in terms of the rebuild. Instead we just gave him the keys in year 4 after a max contract and told him to go explore your game lol.

I mean some people said that 3 years ago. We were called "FVV-stans" or "haters".

I know you ain’t talking. had crying tantrums whenever anyone suggested trading Siakam/FVV during those times.

The fact you believe this is sad. But I guess why would you suddenly start not being disingenuous?

[Vampirate]

Yeah... Cade and Banchero both still have efficiecny issues I am gonna need to see more than 5 games of Paolo this year before we can say he is efficient.

Cade's 3 point shot has drastically improved.

Paolo will always have the upper hand because he can get to the FT line 7 times a game. His FTr is a large part of what makes him a good scorer.

Barnes currently can't either get to the FT line regularly atm or hit the 3 at high enough volume.

[YogurtProducer]

I think you guys are missing the point of that tweet. It’s not about catering to Scottie from the moment he got drafted.

It’s more so about Masai wasting everyone’s time with the 2 timeline crap he tried to pull off and got absolutely nothing out of it outside of delaying the obvious timeline which was the rebuild.

Teams like the Thunder, Magic, Rockets, Cavs, Detroit, etc etc stocked up on young talent while we bled away assets.

Warriors are on the other spectrum of what Masai did. They held on to their young guys at the expense of surrounding Curry with win now players and now they have nothing to show for it.

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

This is way off base. The Cavs didn't magically get better going all in after, they literally had 3 years of top 10 picks (8th 5th, and 5th OA) before they got Mobley with the 3rd. They traded Sexton (8th pick), Ochai (14th pick) and Lauri + picks for Mitchell. Garland is basically their second best player that they drafted 5th, as well as picking up Allen for peanuts when he was 22. Their team was stacked with young players/top 10 picks either from drafting or trading. They didn't just draft Mobley and then trade for Mitchell and call it a day, wtf is this synopsis?

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Those 2 teams prioritized high draft picks and youth, then they picked up vets or made a big trade AFTER they had those. We had a single high pick and tried to make it work with a mid core. Get out of here with this utterly made up history, holy hell.

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

All you need is 2 young guys at the very least to hit.

Garland X Mobley is great building block to build from.

Sengun, Tari, Amen, Green, Jabari are all very solid building blocks to help support.

Franz, Suggs, Paolo.

Chet, JDub, SGA.

Meanwhile we tried to skip the process by bringing in an inefficient non defender in RJ and a 25 year old combo guard who’s shown flashes of great play but nothing amazing. The only other lotto pick we drafted since Scottie is Gradey.

The attempt to rewrite history and ignore reality is insane.

Not really rewriting history.

I don't really see Garland, anyone on Houston, Franz/Suggs, etc. being considerably better or more likely to elevate a franchise than IQ is.

The Cavs gabmled their future for Donavan Mitchell (and ended up winning thankfully for them). The Rockets paid $70M to FVV/Brooks. The Magic have 15 years of draft asset accumulation. The Thunder are simply not a replicable model.

It is rewriting history to suggest their success now is becasue of "2 young guys hitting".

[YogurtProducer]

Yeah... Cade and Banchero both still have efficiecny issues I am gonna need to see more than 5 games of Paolo this year before we can say he is efficient.

Cade's 3 point shot has drastically improved.

Paolo will always have the upper hand because he can get to the FT line 7 times a game. His FTr is a large part of what makes him a good scorer.

Barnes currently can't either get to the FT line regularly atm or hit the 3 at high enough volume.

Cool.

Barnes in 2023/24 had a better TS% than Cade or Paolos career high, while being the best playmaker and defender of the bunch.

[Vampirate]

Yeah... Cade and Banchero both still have efficiecny issues I am gonna need to see more than 5 games of Paolo this year before we can say he is efficient.

Cade's 3 point shot has drastically improved.

Paolo will always have the upper hand because he can get to the FT line 7 times a game. His FTr is a large part of what makes him a good scorer.

Barnes currently can't either get to the FT line regularly atm or hit the 3 at high enough volume.

Cool.

Barnes in 2023/24 had a better TS% than Cade or Paolos career high, while being the best playmaker and defender of the bunch.

That doesn't matter now. Also if we're talking Paolo you're not taking out how he scored 27 PPG on 21 shots in the playoffs.

If Barnes starts scoring 25+PPG we can then start comparing the 2. Not now.

As for Cade, he's really improved.

In order for Barnes to actually start being compared to Paolo he needs to start averaging 25PPG on the same efficiency he's at now at least.

19-20 PPG isn't going to cut it.

[HumbleRen]

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

This is way off base. The Cavs didn't magically get better going all in after, they literally had 3 years of top 10 picks (8th 5th, and 5th OA) before they got Mobley with the 3rd. They traded Sexton (8th pick), Ochai (14th pick) and Lauri + picks for Mitchell. Garland is basically their second best player that they drafted 5th, as well as picking up Allen for peanuts when he was 22. Their team was stacked with young players/top 10 picks either from drafting or trading. They didn't just draft Mobley and then trade for Mitchell and call it a day, wtf is this synopsis?

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Those 2 teams prioritized high draft picks and youth, then they picked up vets or made a big trade AFTER they had those. We had a single high pick and tried to make it work with a mid core. Get out of here with this utterly made up history, holy hell.

All you need is 2 young guys at the very least to hit.

Garland X Mobley is great building block to build from.

Sengun, Tari, Amen, Green, Jabari are all very solid building blocks to help support.

Franz, Suggs, Paolo.

Chet, JDub, SGA.

Meanwhile we tried to skip the process by bringing in an inefficient non defender in RJ and a 25 year old combo guard who’s shown flashes of great play but nothing amazing. The only other lotto pick we drafted since Scottie is Gradey.

The attempt to rewrite history and ignore reality is insane.

Not really rewriting history.

I don't really see Garland, anyone on Houston, Franz/Suggs, etc. being considerably better or more likely to elevate a franchise than IQ is.

The Cavs gabmled their future for Donavan Mitchell (and ended up winning thankfully for them). The Rockets paid $70M to FVV/Brooks. The Magic have 15 years of draft asset accumulation. The Thunder are simply not a replicable model.

It is rewriting history to suggest their success now is becasue of "2 young guys hitting".

What am I reading man. I always had a low regard for your basketball takes but this is a new low even for yourself.

You don’t think having one of Amen, Garland, Franz, Sengun etc wouldn’t put our rebuild in a significantly better place?

Good lord.

[Vampirate]

I think you guys are missing the point of that tweet. It’s not about catering to Scottie from the moment he got drafted.

It’s more so about Masai wasting everyone’s time with the 2 timeline crap he tried to pull off and got absolutely nothing out of it outside of delaying the obvious timeline which was the rebuild.

Teams like the Thunder, Magic, Rockets, Cavs, Detroit, etc etc stocked up on young talent while we bled away assets.

Warriors are on the other spectrum of what Masai did. They held on to their young guys at the expense of surrounding Curry with win now players and now they have nothing to show for it.

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

All you need is 2 young guys at the very least to hit.

Garland X Mobley is great building block to build from.

Sengun, Tari, Amen, Green, Jabari are all very solid building blocks to help support.

Franz, Suggs, Paolo.

Chet, JDub, SGA.

Meanwhile we tried to skip the process by bringing in an inefficient non defender in RJ and a 25 year old combo guard who’s shown flashes of great play but nothing amazing. The only other lotto pick we drafted since Scottie is Gradey.

To play devil's advocate, that non defender mixed in with Gradey and IQ has cratered our defense, let's hope it stays that way for the rest of the year.

In other words it's helped us get our record to what it is. We really can't afford to be any type of decent at the moment.

[YogurtProducer]

This is way off base. The Cavs didn't magically get better going all in after, they literally had 3 years of top 10 picks (8th 5th, and 5th OA) before they got Mobley with the 3rd. They traded Sexton (8th pick), Ochai (14th pick) and Lauri + picks for Mitchell. Garland is basically their second best player that they drafted 5th, as well as picking up Allen for peanuts when he was 22. Their team was stacked with young players/top 10 picks either from drafting or trading. They didn't just draft Mobley and then trade for Mitchell and call it a day, wtf is this synopsis?

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Those 2 teams prioritized high draft picks and youth, then they picked up vets or made a big trade AFTER they had those. We had a single high pick and tried to make it work with a mid core. Get out of here with this utterly made up history, holy hell.


The attempt to rewrite history and ignore reality is insane.

Not really rewriting history.

I don't really see Garland, anyone on Houston, Franz/Suggs, etc. being considerably better or more likely to elevate a franchise than IQ is.

The Cavs gabmled their future for Donavan Mitchell (and ended up winning thankfully for them). The Rockets paid $70M to FVV/Brooks. The Magic have 15 years of draft asset accumulation. The Thunder are simply not a replicable model.

It is rewriting history to suggest their success now is becasue of "2 young guys hitting".

What am I reading man. I always had a low regard for your basketball takes but this is a new low even for yourself.

You don’t think having one of Amen, Garland, Franz, Sengun etc wouldn’t put our rebuild in a significantly better place?

Good lord.

If you take away Quickley and add one of those guys, how much better do you seriously think we are?

Why don't we list all the teams with 2+ young guys that didn't work out? Lets just be honest with ourselves as to why those franchises turned it around.

And cool. I have low regard for your decency as a person because you seem to struggle with separating a personal attack from a discussion. Grow up dude.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I think you guys are missing the point of that tweet. It’s not about catering to Scottie from the moment he got drafted.

It’s more so about Masai wasting everyone’s time with the 2 timeline crap he tried to pull off and got absolutely nothing out of it outside of delaying the obvious timeline which was the rebuild.

Teams like the Thunder, Magic, Rockets, Cavs, Detroit, etc etc stocked up on young talent while we bled away assets.

Warriors are on the other spectrum of what Masai did. They held on to their young guys at the expense of surrounding Curry with win now players and now they have nothing to show for it.

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

All you need is 2 young guys at the very least to hit.

Garland X Mobley is great building block to build from.

Sengun, Tari, Amen, Green, Jabari are all very solid building blocks to help support.

Franz, Suggs, Paolo.

Chet, JDub, SGA.

Meanwhile we tried to skip the process by bringing in an inefficient non defender in RJ and a 25 year old combo guard who’s shown flashes of great play but nothing amazing. The only other lotto pick we drafted since Scottie is Gradey.

Okay, when did the Cavs start this rebuild?

Are the Rockets building around Green? I don't get it.

When did the Magic start this rebuild?

The Thunder with SGA did the same thing Masai is doing with Scottie. They immediately fielded a competitive team with veterans. Then they told him to sit so they could tank. They are awesome without Chet. Maybe they don't even need him. Maybe they never needed to rebuild to make Shai look really good, because maybe Shai is just that good.

Like, Tari, Sengun aren't even lotto picks. They traded for Sengun, from OKC, like how do you square that? Masai should make some better decisions and maybe he already has.

[LoveMyRaps]

This is way off base. The Cavs didn't magically get better going all in after, they literally had 3 years of top 10 picks (8th 5th, and 5th OA) before they got Mobley with the 3rd. They traded Sexton (8th pick), Ochai (14th pick) and Lauri + picks for Mitchell. Garland is basically their second best player that they drafted 5th, as well as picking up Allen for peanuts when he was 22. Their team was stacked with young players/top 10 picks either from drafting or trading. They didn't just draft Mobley and then trade for Mitchell and call it a day, wtf is this synopsis?

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Those 2 teams prioritized high draft picks and youth, then they picked up vets or made a big trade AFTER they had those. We had a single high pick and tried to make it work with a mid core. Get out of here with this utterly made up history, holy hell.


The attempt to rewrite history and ignore reality is insane.

Not really rewriting history.

I don't really see Garland, anyone on Houston, Franz/Suggs, etc. being considerably better or more likely to elevate a franchise than IQ is.

The Cavs gabmled their future for Donavan Mitchell (and ended up winning thankfully for them). The Rockets paid $70M to FVV/Brooks. The Magic have 15 years of draft asset accumulation. The Thunder are simply not a replicable model.

It is rewriting history to suggest their success now is becasue of "2 young guys hitting".

What am I reading man. I always had a low regard for your basketball takes but this is a new low even for yourself.

You don’t think having one of Amen, Garland, Franz, Sengun etc wouldn’t put our rebuild in a significantly better place?

Good lord.

If you replace IQ w/ Garland, do you really think it would move the needle for us? Do you think this team would drastically be any different? Let's not even start w/ Suggs, or any of the Houston players... None of those guys are significant upgrades over IQ.

[Scase]

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

This is way off base. The Cavs didn't magically get better going all in after, they literally had 3 years of top 10 picks (8th 5th, and 5th OA) before they got Mobley with the 3rd. They traded Sexton (8th pick), Ochai (14th pick) and Lauri + picks for Mitchell. Garland is basically their second best player that they drafted 5th, as well as picking up Allen for peanuts when he was 22. Their team was stacked with young players/top 10 picks either from drafting or trading. They didn't just draft Mobley and then trade for Mitchell and call it a day, wtf is this synopsis?

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Those 2 teams prioritized high draft picks and youth, then they picked up vets or made a big trade AFTER they had those. We had a single high pick and tried to make it work with a mid core. Get out of here with this utterly made up history, holy hell.

All you need is 2 young guys at the very least to hit.

Garland X Mobley is great building block to build from.

Sengun, Tari, Amen, Green, Jabari are all very solid building blocks to help support.

Franz, Suggs, Paolo.

Chet, JDub, SGA.

Meanwhile we tried to skip the process by bringing in an inefficient non defender in RJ and a 25 year old combo guard who’s shown flashes of great play but nothing amazing. The only other lotto pick we drafted since Scottie is Gradey.

The attempt to rewrite history and ignore reality is insane.

Not really rewriting history.

I don't really see Garland, anyone on Houston, Franz/Suggs, etc. being considerably better or more likely to elevate a franchise than IQ is.

The Cavs gabmled their future for Donavan Mitchell (and ended up winning thankfully for them). The Rockets paid $70M to FVV/Brooks. The Magic have 15 years of draft asset accumulation. The Thunder are simply not a replicable model.

It is rewriting history to suggest their success now is becasue of "2 young guys hitting".

So Garland who was the starting guard of a team that won 44 games before the mitchell trade, is no more or less likely than IQ who as a starting guard has been at the helm of a 25 win team, and now currently 1-6 in games this year, to elevate a team? I'm not willing to write off IQ yet as it's much too early, but Garland is/has been the lead guard for teams that have resulted in 33, 51, 48 win seasons, and currently a 32-4 team. Maybe take a step back from that one.

The Rockets did pay a bunch of money to a couple vets, one on a short term contract and AFTER they had a bunch of high end players/picks. Which btw is 64mil, 21.5 + 42.8 is not 70.

The Magic were a terribly run org with an awful FO and then as soon as they got a good GM turned it around in a few years.

And if you think that OKC is not replicable, guess what, neither is this hair brained idea of building a team with a bunch of mid players and hope for some Kawhi-esque swing for the fences trade like everyone likes to use as an example of how to build a team.

The Cavs, Rockets, Magic, and OKC have ALL been built off the backs of high picks. Maybe you will see a trend eventually.

[Scase]

What young talent did the Cavs stock up on after they drafted Mobley? They basically just went all-in after that.

I get that there's always going to be crying over two-timelines, but it has worked for other teams. It didn't work for this one. The Rockets went out and signed vets and immediately their young players didn't look so crappy.

All you need is 2 young guys at the very least to hit.

Garland X Mobley is great building block to build from.

Sengun, Tari, Amen, Green, Jabari are all very solid building blocks to help support.

Franz, Suggs, Paolo.

Chet, JDub, SGA.

Meanwhile we tried to skip the process by bringing in an inefficient non defender in RJ and a 25 year old combo guard who’s shown flashes of great play but nothing amazing. The only other lotto pick we drafted since Scottie is Gradey.

Okay, when did the Cavs start this rebuild?

Are the Rockets building around Green? I don't get it.

When did the Magic start this rebuild?

The Thunder with SGA did the same thing Masai is doing with Scottie. They immediately fielded a competitive team with veterans. Then they told him to sit so they could tank. They are awesome without Chet. Maybe they don't even need him. Maybe they never needed to rebuild to make Shai look really good, because maybe Shai is just that good.

Like, Tari, Sengun aren't even lotto picks. They traded for Sengun, from OKC, like how do you square that? Masai should make some better decisions and maybe he already has.

Yeah they sure did.....minus the MILLIONS OF PICKS THEY HAD. My god, this has to be trolling.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Would it have been better for Masai to trade a future first for Allen or Sengun than the one he traded for Poeltl? **** yes. Would it have been considered 'rebuilding'? I'm not sure.

[HumbleRen]

Not really rewriting history.

I don't really see Garland, anyone on Houston, Franz/Suggs, etc. being considerably better or more likely to elevate a franchise than IQ is.

The Cavs gabmled their future for Donavan Mitchell (and ended up winning thankfully for them). The Rockets paid $70M to FVV/Brooks. The Magic have 15 years of draft asset accumulation. The Thunder are simply not a replicable model.

It is rewriting history to suggest their success now is becasue of "2 young guys hitting".

What am I reading man. I always had a low regard for your basketball takes but this is a new low even for yourself.

You don’t think having one of Amen, Garland, Franz, Sengun etc wouldn’t put our rebuild in a significantly better place?

Good lord.

If you replace IQ w/ Garland, do you really think it would move the needle for us? Do you think this team would drastically be any different? Let's not even start w/ Suggs, or any of the Houston players... None of those guys are significant upgrades over IQ.

I like IQ, I do but who do you think he is?

Masai would trade IQ for Garland, Suggs, Amen in a heart beat. Same with RJ.

In fact he would trade RJ and IQ and a future pick in a heart beat for Franz.

[Scase]

What am I reading man. I always had a low regard for your basketball takes but this is a new low even for yourself.

You don’t think having one of Amen, Garland, Franz, Sengun etc wouldn’t put our rebuild in a significantly better place?

Good lord.

If you replace IQ w/ Garland, do you really think it would move the needle for us? Do you think this team would drastically be any different? Let's not even start w/ Suggs, or any of the Houston players... None of those guys are significant upgrades over IQ.

I like IQ, I do but who do you think he is?

Masai would trade IQ for Garland, Suggs, Amen in a heart beat. Same with RJ.

In fact he would trade RJ and IQ and a future pick in a heart beat for Franz.

I would argue IQ has a better contract.....but at least Garland has showed he deserved his coming off of a 51 win season, and not getting a fat pay raise after a 25 win one. Not to mention already getting an AS selection in his 3rd year at age 22.

The most ardent defenders of this FO and the roster as a whole, I have serious doubts they watch any basketball other than this team.

[Vampirate]

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Agree with a lot of what you're saying but let me make a couple of points.

The Rockets core past Sengun and Amen is very mid.

You wouldn't want to depend on Jalen Green, Jabari or Reed Sheppord to be part of your core.

Jalen is basically a weaker version of RJ, Jabari is a mid scorer and Reed seems to be a disappointment.

The Rockets are just benefitting from Sengun taking a defensive leap and Amen has been great overall in year 2.


As for the Siakam timeline, the whole issue with it was we were just too depleted from assets to get the championship team that we just couldn't get a suitable talent next to Siakam to line up the timelines. FVV being the 2nd best player/scorer in that time period was the biggest issue. Siakam himself wasn't the issue, it's just a shame he entered the NBA as an older rookie.


As for the Raptors right now, we have a serious shot to launch ourselves up next year but it highly depends on the draft.

Barnes, IQ, Pick, (Gradey, Jakobe) is a good foundation...depending on the player coming in. However if we don't land a real difference maker in the draft......pain.

Emphasis on the bold here.

[Vampirate]

What am I reading man. I always had a low regard for your basketball takes but this is a new low even for yourself.

You don’t think having one of Amen, Garland, Franz, Sengun etc wouldn’t put our rebuild in a significantly better place?

Good lord.

If you replace IQ w/ Garland, do you really think it would move the needle for us? Do you think this team would drastically be any different? Let's not even start w/ Suggs, or any of the Houston players... None of those guys are significant upgrades over IQ.

I like IQ, I do but who do you think he is?

Masai would trade IQ for Garland, Suggs, Amen in a heart beat. Same with RJ.

In fact he would trade RJ and IQ and a future pick in a heart beat for Franz.

No idea with only 7 games played. He could be a 18PPG scorer, he could be a 22+PPG scorer. IQ is a big swing factor in all of this.

I think everyone pretty much knows what we have exactly in RJ, IQ not so much.

[HumbleRen]

And the Rockets? they went out and just signed vets? Yeah lets ignore that they drafted Green with the 2nd, then had the 3rd, 4th, and 3rd pick for 3 more years in a row. They didn't magically get better, they had 3 top 3 picks and a 4th OA. They added vets to a solid very young core.

Neither of those are "two timelines". The Raptors had a 26 year old Siakam and FVV and a 23 year old OG. They then got a single high pick in Scottie and haven't had a single high pick before or after that. And in our ONLY high pick players THIRD year did we then make a trade that resulted in us getting 2 players in their 4th and 5th years.

Agree with a lot of what you're saying but let me make a couple of points.

The Rockets core past Sengun and Amen is very mid.

You wouldn't want to depend on Jalen Green, Jabari or Reed Sheppord to be part of your core.

Jalen is basically a weaker version of RJ, Jabari is a mid scorer and Reed seems to be a disappointment.

The Rockets are just benefitting from Sengun taking a defensive leap and Amen has been great overall in year 2.


As for the Siakam timeline, the whole issue with it was we were just too depleted from assets to get the championship team that we just couldn't get a suitable talent next to Siakam to line up the timelines. FVV being the 2nd best player/scorer in that time period was the biggest issue. Siakam himself wasn't the issue, it's just a shame he entered the NBA as an older rookie.


As for the Raptors right now, we have a serious shot to launch ourselves up next year but it highly depends on the draft.

Barnes, IQ, Pick, (Gradey, Jakobe) is a good foundation...depending on the player coming in. However if we don't land a real difference maker in the draft......pain.

Emphasis on the bold here.

It’s not about who you deem is mid or not though. It’s about assets.

Jabari Smith Jr might be “mid” but he’s a 2 way wing. Tari doesn’t have eye popping stats but he’s another defensive wing monster. Jalen Green still has the allure of high potential.

They have enough assets where they can pull a trigger to get a star while keeping their 2 main building blocks. That’s just as important as anything else when it comes to rebuilding a team.

We have Scottie and Gradey and that’s it.

[YogurtProducer]

So Garland who was the starting guard of a team that won 44 games before the mitchell trade, is no more or less likely than IQ who as a starting guard has been at the helm of a 25 win team, and now currently 1-6 in games this year, to elevate a team? I'm not willing to write off IQ yet as it's much too early, but Garland is/has been the lead guard for teams that have resulted in 33, 51, 48 win seasons, and currently a 32-4 team. Maybe take a step back from that one.

Well team success to measure an individual player is incredibly flawed.

Trade IQ and Garland now (and assume both were healthy). Does CLE get much worse? Does TOR get much better? I am honestly not convinced you see signficant movement either way. IQ gave us 18/8 on 56TS% last year. Garland gave CLE 18/7 on 56TS%. Garland has had an up year and Quickley a down for sure, but I am still not overly convinced there is a big gap there.

The Rockets did pay a bunch of money to a couple vets, one on a short term contract and AFTER they had a bunch of high end players/picks. Which btw is 64mil, 21.5 + 42.8 is not 70.

I rounded and thought of their salaries in my head without looking it up, oh no, sue me

The Magic were a terribly run org with an awful FO and then as soon as they got a good GM turned it around in a few years.

No they were not Weltman was hired in 2016-17 and it took them 3 years to make the playoffs (as low seeds), win 2 playoff games in 2 years, then go back to rebuild AGAIN and make the playoffs finally again in 2024. So Weltman is in year 9 with 5 total playoff wins to show.

And if you think that OKC is not replicable, guess what, neither is this hair brained idea of building a team with a bunch of mid players and hope for some Kawhi-esque swing for the fences trade like everyone likes to use as an example of how to build a team.

What a **** strawman.

The Cavs, Rockets, Magic, and OKC have ALL been built off the backs of high picks. Maybe you will see a trend eventually.

Do we, or do we not, have a #4 pick on our team and are we on pace for a top 5 this year? Okay, we can agree on the facts.

CLE - 3rd pick in Mobley and 5th pick in Garland. Then they did a MASSIVE trade to get where they are. Do we care about Okoro?

HOU - Sure, all these high picks, and their best players are the $40M PG you hate, an overpaid SF in Brooks, a non-lottery pick in Sengun, and THEN Green and Smith and Thompson who are less respoinsible for the turn around then those other guys. Houston fans would tell you Green is kind of garbage, and that Smith/Amen are all still more "potential" than anything else.

ORL - if we tank and our end result is a Paolo/Suggs/Wagner core I am really not convinced they are any better off than we are with Barnes/this years pick/IQ. What an underwhelming roster considering they hae ben rebuilding since Dwight left.

OKC - and even here, they are good because they got SGA in a trade NOT because of high picks, AND their #2 (or #3?) in Jalen was the 12th pick. Lets just be honest, if SGA never came back in that deal the Thunder are not a contender, and they are probably still in the lottery. Giddey was their 2nd highest pick and he was not very good, and Chet is a great support player but he is not elevating a franchise (as you can see, OKC is still good when he is out).

Like sheesh man - we can at least be honest with ourselves.