Scotto: Jakob Poeltl’s future

[LoveMyRaps]

Shakril is Austrian.

100%

Of course he is. Or he's Poeltl agent. It's the only logical explanation for their homerism. Look at the date they joined RealGM: Feb 10, 2023. Anyone care to guess what happened on Feb 9, 2023?

OH SNAPPPPPPPPPP! WE GOT EM!

[ArthurVandelay]

Shakril is Austrian.

100%

Of course he is. Or he's Poeltl agent. It's the only logical explanation for their homerism. Look at the date they joined RealGM: Feb 10, 2023. Anyone care to guess what happened on Feb 9, 2023?

OH SNAPPPPPPPPPP! WE GOT EM!

Or is this a Bryan Colangelo moment?

[Scase]

Shakril is Austrian.

100%

Of course he is. Or he's Poeltl agent. It's the only logical explanation for their homerism. Look at the date they joined RealGM: Feb 10, 2023. Anyone care to guess what happened on Feb 9, 2023?

OH SNAPPPPPPPPPP! WE GOT EM!

That's actually nuts, I never thought to even look at that hahahah

[Merit]

Do you know when Gary's perception around the league was likely at its highest? When he was having a career shooting year with a couple years on his contract left. That's when we should have traded him for that max value. Jak is in this same boat right now. That's what I mean by maximizing value.

I know this FO can throw off that perception as it constantly overpays in trades for expiring contracts who they then overpay again in FA immediately after, but that's not how most of the league operates. Max value tends to include having some term on the deal.

Jak and Gary aren’t the same players. We were never going to trade Fred or Gary because we were trying to run it back. It’s the same reason we traded for Jak in the first place. I hear you on Jak having “maximum value” - in your eyes, I might add. There’s a reason he’s coveted right now.

As I said earlier, if we get the most talented player in the trade by a country mile Eg. Demar and Jak for Kawhi, then obviously we trade Jak. If we’re getting average players and only the possibility of upside via picks, no thank you. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. There are so many other things to consider other than maximizing a return on Jak’s value in terms of picks from other teams. Continuity, teamwork, keeping our floor from completely bottoming out, keeping the morale higher by having a fighting chance to be in every game - that’s what Jak represents to me beyond his stats. For these reasons and because he’s comfortable here (he already re-signed with us once, and we drafted him) I would be highly surprised if he moved.

We are 44-63 in the games Poeltl has played for us (not including games he's missed due to injury). That is a 33 win pace overall. What exactly are we holding onto?

If you’re including the team prior to the rebuild that’s a bit silly, no?

As I continue to maintain, if we get an astounding deal - let’s trade him. If we don’t I’m a-okay. He’s a solid player and fits his role on his salary. That’s more than we can say for many nba players, let alone Centers.

[Merit]

Jak and Gary aren’t the same players. We were never going to trade Fred or Gary because we were trying to run it back. It’s the same reason we traded for Jak in the first place. I hear you on Jak having “maximum value” - in your eyes, I might add. There’s a reason he’s coveted right now.

As I said earlier, if we get the most talented player in the trade by a country mile Eg. Demar and Jak for Kawhi, then obviously we trade Jak. If we’re getting average players and only the possibility of upside via picks, no thank you. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. There are so many other things to consider other than maximizing a return on Jak’s value in terms of picks from other teams. Continuity, teamwork, keeping our floor from completely bottoming out, keeping the morale higher by having a fighting chance to be in every game - that’s what Jak represents to me beyond his stats. For these reasons and because he’s comfortable here (he already re-signed with us once, and we drafted him) I would be highly surprised if he moved.

We are 44-63 in the games Poeltl has played for us (not including games he's missed due to injury). That is a 33 win pace overall. What exactly are we holding onto?

This is it. There seems to be a romanticized view of Poeltl around here, like he's some kind of savior or something.

"Continuity & teamwork"? He was brought in to make the playoffs, we haven't been in the playoffs since. We've won 1 game in the past 14 due partly to bad teamwork. This continuity needs to stop!

"Fighting chance"? We just had 2 of the worst losses in team history in December. We just set a team record for most turnovers in one game, 31, in which Poeltl tied for 2nd most turnovers in that game. What a way to give us a fighting chance!

So what are we holding on to? A depreciating older asset whose value at an all-time high. There's no better time than now to trade him to get the most value in return in the form young talent that we desperately need.

We can select individual games to highlight all sorts of nonsense. The 72-10 bulls lost to the raptors. Doesn’t make Jordan any less historically relevant.

I don’t think Poeltl’s counting stats or defense are going to drop off the cliff any time soon. If you feel so strongly on it, by all means. I’m content with keeping him here.

[ArthurVandelay]

I’m firmly back on the trade Poeltl train

Would love to get Edey or Ware

[Merit]

We are 44-63 in the games Poeltl has played for us (not including games he's missed due to injury). That is a 33 win pace overall. What exactly are we holding onto?

This is it. There seems to be a romanticized view of Poeltl around here, like he's some kind of savior or something.

"Continuity & teamwork"? He was brought in to make the playoffs, we haven't been in the playoffs since. We've won 1 game in the past 14 due partly to bad teamwork. This continuity needs to stop!

"Fighting chance"? We just had 2 of the worst losses in team history in December. We just set a team record for most turnovers in one game, 31, in which Poeltl tied for 2nd most turnovers in that game. What a way to give us a fighting chance!

So what are we holding on to? A depreciating older asset whose value at an all-time high. There's no better time than now to trade him to get the most value in return in the form young talent that we desperately need.

It bears repeating that no team with Poeltl as the full-time starter has ever made the playoffs (he started sporadically in his first year with the Spurs, and that team made the playoffs and was ousted in the 1st round). I am not necessarily in favor of moving him at all costs, but those slow, plodding Centers often do not age well.

Poeltl has never started on an amazing team. Can’t fault him for that.

I don’t get the fascination with identifying one solid to above average or better player and dragging them through the mud and undervaluing them for no reason. We did it with OG, Pascal, Fred, Norm, Jak and before that with Kyle, Jose, TJ, Garbo, Anthony Parker, etc.

He’s not slow or plodding. A great comparison would be Andrew Bogut in his early golden state era. If you’re looking at someone slow and plodding, Bogut would be it. However, he could pass, set screens, rebounded really well in limited minutes and was a key cog to those teams. Jak has better mobility than Bogut. A better example might be Boris Diaw - not the fit Diaw, but the Diaw who played small ball C. Solid IQ, connective passer, solid screener, has his limitations defending outside the paint.

As I continue to maintain, let’s get more shooting around him and on the team in general. We still have nowhere near enough of that.

[Merit]

We are 44-63 in the games Poeltl has played for us (not including games he's missed due to injury). That is a 33 win pace overall. What exactly are we holding onto?

This is it. There seems to be a romanticized view of Poeltl around here, like he's some kind of savior or something.

"Continuity & teamwork"? He was brought in to make the playoffs, we haven't been in the playoffs since. We've won 1 game in the past 14 due partly to bad teamwork. This continuity needs to stop!

"Fighting chance"? We just had 2 of the worst losses in team history in December. We just set a team record for most turnovers in one game, 31, in which Poeltl tied for 2nd most turnovers in that game. What a way to give us a fighting chance!

So what are we holding on to? A depreciating older asset whose value at an all-time high. There's no better time than now to trade him to get the most value in return in the form young talent that we desperately need.

There is this idea that we need a C for development. I can sort of get behind that idea but where I do not agree is that we need someone at the level of Poeltl. We need someone to do the dirty work, set screens and generally ease guys like Barnes from the wear and tear of having to log minutes at C. If we just need a stop gap dirty work C then just sign someone like Biyombo. We are already close to terrible with Poeltl, so I do not buy that taking a step back at the C position is going to wreck the spirit of this team. We do not even play at a play-in level with him in the lineup. It's not like we are killing our playoff chances by trading Poeltl.

There is also an idea that we will need him to be competitive next year. At this point there is zero guarantee we'll be competitive next year. We are going to have a high draft pick and that guy is going to get minutes and more likely than not he's not going to be a positive impact player. We also have a bunch of other young players who will get minutes. If we start next season 10-15 is anyone going to say "I'm sure glad we kept Poeltl"?

There is a 50/50 chance we will be bad again next year (not as bad as this year but be a borderline play-in team). If we are showing that we are not bad then go out and get another C with the IND pick (or some other asset). Would having to find a new C be ideal? No, obviously not. It's a risk. So is keeping Poeltl into his expiring year.

Everyone just assumes we're going to be ready to compete next year but I see no guarantee of that. I get both sides of the argument for an against keeping Poeltl but I think there is a real chance we don't need him next year (as far as being competitive goes). No one who supports keeping Poeltl is really looking at this team and thinking "we might be more than just a year away". And if we're not good we don't need him (we just need a lesser, cheaper, stopgap version of him).

I’d rather just keep him and extend him instead of getting an underwhelming return for him in the near term. We have a decent number of picks and other players to deal prior to Jak.

As for competing next year - we’ll still be rebuilding, but we won’t be stealth tanking. Who knows what happens next year? All I know is my risk management plan wouldn’t include moving Jak. You might feel differently and that’s totally okay.

[aminiaturebuddha]

I’m firmly back on the trade Poeltl train

Would love to get Edey or Ware

I can't see either of those teams being interested in a swap of those guys for Poeltl. In a vaccuum Poeltl is obviously better than both right now, but you'd have to consider the context for each.

Memphis wouldn't be interested because Edey is a cost-controlled center at the beginning of his rookie scale contract when they're already paying Morant and Bane big bucks and have to sign JJJ and Aldama to extensions soon.

And Miami because Poeltl and Bam would be a very awkward fit.

[Merit]

This is precisely why people lose millions on the stock market.

That’s right, they don’t buy at the right price as we didn’t and then hold on too long and compound the failure

The stock market is liquid and you have unlimited options; the player market is not. The better analogy is the private markets. Just because you bought too high doesn't mean you should sell without a better alternative to deploy the capital into. Sure, your 30% IRR base case is unlikely to materialize, but if the 15% IRR you're likely to get by staying in trumps your other investment opportunities today, you're better off staying in.

Agreed my analogy was rough and rushed. To clarify - I meant there’s no reason to suddenly jump ship.

And yes, we don’t know the internal metrics used to calculate “value” (IRR) but I feel we paid a hefty price up front and are recouping the value now with Jak’s solid contract. So yeah - our best case scenario didn’t happen (keeping both first round picks, or being good enough that our pick wouldn’t convey into anything but 2nds) but even still - what we paid for a non FA rotation player C with some untapped potential was fair.

[ConSarnit]

This is it. There seems to be a romanticized view of Poeltl around here, like he's some kind of savior or something.

"Continuity & teamwork"? He was brought in to make the playoffs, we haven't been in the playoffs since. We've won 1 game in the past 14 due partly to bad teamwork. This continuity needs to stop!

"Fighting chance"? We just had 2 of the worst losses in team history in December. We just set a team record for most turnovers in one game, 31, in which Poeltl tied for 2nd most turnovers in that game. What a way to give us a fighting chance!

So what are we holding on to? A depreciating older asset whose value at an all-time high. There's no better time than now to trade him to get the most value in return in the form young talent that we desperately need.

It bears repeating that no team with Poeltl as the full-time starter has ever made the playoffs (he started sporadically in his first year with the Spurs, and that team made the playoffs and was ousted in the 1st round). I am not necessarily in favor of moving him at all costs, but those slow, plodding Centers often do not age well.

Poeltl has never started on an amazing team. Can’t fault him for that.

I don’t get the fascination with identifying one solid to above average or better player and dragging them through the mud and undervaluing them for no reason. We did it with OG, Pascal, Fred, Norm, Jak and before that with Kyle, Jose, TJ, Garbo, Anthony Parker, etc.

He’s not slow or plodding. A great comparison would be Andrew Bogut in his early golden state era. If you’re looking at someone slow and plodding, Bogut would be it. However, he could pass, set screens, rebounded really well in limited minutes and was a key cog to those teams. Jak has better mobility than Bogut. A better example might be Boris Diaw - not the fit Diaw, but the Diaw who played small ball C. Solid IQ, connective passer, solid screener, has his limitations defending outside the paint.

As I continue to maintain, let’s get more shooting around him and on the team in general. We still have nowhere near enough of that.

Shooting is a good idea but here’s the problem: our best player can’t really shoot. He effectively had a 2 month hot streak early last season and before and since that period he has been a 30% 3pt shooter. So now we have a team where the 4/5 are both non shooters and that’s not a recipe for success.

Poeltl is a fine player. His fit with Barnes is a little tenuous thanks to Barnes lack of shooting. His defensive numbers are also down. When he was in SAS he was a near elite rim protector (maybe a level below the Gobert’s and Lopez of the league). His defense isn’t at that level anymore. If he can no longer anchor a defense and his fit with our best player isn’t great (not Poeltl’s fault) then maybe it’s time to look elsewhere if there is a good offer on the table.

I have never been high on Poeltl but I don’t think he’s the problem. I just don’t think he’s a for sure keeper and if the right offer comes along we should move him.

[Merit]

It bears repeating that no team with Poeltl as the full-time starter has ever made the playoffs (he started sporadically in his first year with the Spurs, and that team made the playoffs and was ousted in the 1st round). I am not necessarily in favor of moving him at all costs, but those slow, plodding Centers often do not age well.

Poeltl has never started on an amazing team. Can’t fault him for that.

I don’t get the fascination with identifying one solid to above average or better player and dragging them through the mud and undervaluing them for no reason. We did it with OG, Pascal, Fred, Norm, Jak and before that with Kyle, Jose, TJ, Garbo, Anthony Parker, etc.

He’s not slow or plodding. A great comparison would be Andrew Bogut in his early golden state era. If you’re looking at someone slow and plodding, Bogut would be it. However, he could pass, set screens, rebounded really well in limited minutes and was a key cog to those teams. Jak has better mobility than Bogut. A better example might be Boris Diaw - not the fit Diaw, but the Diaw who played small ball C. Solid IQ, connective passer, solid screener, has his limitations defending outside the paint.

As I continue to maintain, let’s get more shooting around him and on the team in general. We still have nowhere near enough of that.

Shooting is a good idea but here’s the problem: our best player can’t really shoot. He effectively had a 2 month hot streak early last season and before and since that period he has been a 30% 3pt shooter. So now we have a team where the 4/5 are both non shooters and that’s not a recipe for success.

Poeltl is a fine player. His fit with Barnes is a little tenuous thanks to Barnes lack of shooting. His defensive numbers are also down. When he was in SAS he was a near elite rim protector (maybe a level below the Gobert’s and Lopez of the league). His defense isn’t at that level anymore. If he can no longer anchor a defense and his fit with our best player isn’t great (not Poeltl’s fault) then maybe it’s time to look elsewhere if there is a good offer on the table.

I have never been high on Poeltl but I don’t think he’s the problem. I just don’t think he’s a for sure keeper and if the right offer comes along we should move him.

I’m content to move Jak (and anyone else including Scottie) if the right offer comes along. I just don’t think that getting exactly what we paid for Jak back makes sense right now. I’ll come back to morale. Having lived through a season with Baynes as the primary C, I’ll keep Jak, thanks. Happy to draft and develop Jak’s eventual replacement and have him nudge progressively further down the depth chart. Frankly, I’m more excited about moving Brown, Boucher, Kelly and possibly Mitchell too. Let’s see who/what we get for that collective and once we see that return my position on moving Jak may change.

[LoveMyRaps]

Of course he is. Or he's Poeltl agent. It's the only logical explanation for their homerism. Look at the date they joined RealGM: Feb 10, 2023. Anyone care to guess what happened on Feb 9, 2023?

OH SNAPPPPPPPPPP! WE GOT EM!

That's actually nuts, I never thought to even look at that hahahah

Buddy disappeared all of a sudden...

[Shakril]

Shakril is Austrian.

100%

Of course he is. Or he's Poeltl agent. It's the only logical explanation for their homerism. Look at the date they joined RealGM: Feb 10, 2023. Anyone care to guess what happened on Feb 9, 2023?

OH SNAPPPPPPPPPP! WE GOT EM!

Oh the conspiracies. At least this one is not born in fantasy land. Yeah his trade was the reason i actually registered this board, but i was already lurking before. I never made a secret that i like Poeltl as a Player a lot. I was a fan since VC, i kinda skipped the Bosh phase for lack of interest in Basketball at the time, when i cam back to basketball the Lowry and DeRozean era started. Thats how i got to know Poeltl as a Player and became a fan of his. At that time, i wasnt involved in any Boards or Fangroups whatsoever, but i started to lurk on different opportunities on my favourite teams. Yes Toronto isnt the only Franchise i am a fan of, my first franchise i loved was the Lakers, because of Magic Johnson (sadly mostly at the end of his career) and the Warriors cause they had cool name, colors and jerseys (yeah i was young at that time, damn i am old) - and they were always the underdogs. Steph Curry era came much later. Ofc i dipped into the spurs, to see how Poeltl is faring, no secret there. Ofc i was happy when he came back to toronto - and it made sense from Masai's Standpoint (yeah i actually was curious about why he did it, and for me it made sense, even though it should have happened a year earlier instead of Thad Young). So logically speaking i started to invest more time into the Raptors, which lead me to register on the Board. (Frankly, it may have been a mistake. Lurking makes it so much easier to ignore the bad stuff and is healthier). Any questions unanswered?

But thats not really the Problem what i think about Poeltl or that i like him as a player, isnt it?
I believe the Problem lies with what you all do day-in and out -> and that is simply hating on him because of the trade. Its you guys that constantly bring him up as if he hurt you personally. I am talking about him far less than you all think it is. Mostly i am just reacting to comments about him, which are not born in reality but are created out of negativity. Essentially i am defending him (on the basis of facts/information), when its too stupid to ignore. He simply is a criminally underrated player, that gets too much hate for reasons, he isnt responsible for.

So in the end it doesnt matter if i like him or not, cause it isnt the only topic that most of you (talking about specific crowd, you know who you are) discuss evertyhing (not just Poeltl) in bad faith. And everytime you get corned by someone with actually logic and information (yeah its not just me) the insults and anger start coming to whoever wrote it. In this specific case (Poeltl), everything is driven by the emotion of hate, cause Poeltl dared to threaten a tank in 2023 (that never would have happen with FVV and co. in the first place).


So what i comes down to is, that no mattter the topic (its not just about Poeltl) every argument with your group comes down to insults and calling names whoever disagress with you. Sometimes softly, sometimes hardcore but always driven by negativity. Just an example - the Game Thread. People actually like to comment on the game, without constant tank talk like in every other thread. And that already drove you crazy like madmen. "How dare the mods to limit my endless talk of tanking to just 99.9% of the board". We are talking about one - single - thread per game. Of course, i am not saying each one of you is identical and there are no difference in opinion between you - its more a matter of how you all react when faced when the wind blows your way - and that makes you a small unique group.

So in the end it comes down to beeing curious or judgemental. I am rather curious about opinions that are made thoughtfully about certain aspects of the game and team. I like that side, even if it means defending a player i like (not just those i like) over and over again.
Sadly your crowd is on the side of beeing judgemental. Hating a player for X, trashing the FO cause they did something you didnt want them to do, calling a rookie a Bust cause he had a rough start to the nba or a coach for that matter. I could go on, but you get my point.


Even though i actually took the time to write that down, i am pretty sure it wont change a thing, on the contrary - i expect that your group will use everything you can find, to twist my words and attack me with it again - for the simply crime of proving you wrong once again. ( i am pretty sure most of you havent even read past the first 2 sentences )

So wish you a good Day.

[Shakril]

OH SNAPPPPPPPPPP! WE GOT EM!

That's actually nuts, I never thought to even look at that hahahah

Buddy disappeared all of a sudden...

Nope. I actually have to work for my livelyhood and my life doesnt surround around basketball. And even though i already responeded in the post above, i usually have so many more fun things to do than reacting to every little nonsense. It just isnt a priority.

Its your choice to stay ignorant or evolve. I can only show you the way.