PG: Knicks vs. Thunder: BELT-TO-ASS GAME

[Context]

I get it these last 5 games have been frustrating, but man some people on here expect this **** to be easy and for the knicks to win 70 games, it’s like people forget how bad it was around here for years. I get expectations and rightfully so are high as they should be, but this takes time. Nothing is Meant to be easy, the knicks have flaws no doubt, but this sky is falling nonsense is ridiculous. Also, people need to understand Leon is NOT FIRING thibs based on 5 games while the team sits 11 games over .500 and 3rd in the east. Also, if you think thibs and leon who have literally completely turned this franchise around don’t know this team needs more depth that you are being foolish. Let me remind everyone nobody is winning a title in january, the key is to be healthy and playing your best ball in may, whatever you do in January despite how much importance people want to put on last night will mean NOTHING when round 1 of playoffs begin. Have some patience, this was not going to be a cake walk, thibs and leon know/knew this. Stop with the overreactions

I agree with some of this...
The bold is where I want to bring some clairity...
If we want to be great. If we want to build a dynasty. Get the best out of our highly talented group. Thibs is not the answer.
I am basing this off of his complete body of work; not 5 games. When you play a simple pick up game in the park. Do you always
drive the ball to the lane and never shoot? Or do you never drive the ball and always shoot when you take the check? Do you always dribble the ball with your right hand?
Now lets take it to the nba. Thibs has his players doing the same thing every time. I've watched it for 80/90 games now. I watched 3 OKC games this season and the 2nd game vs the Knicks - OKC did different things. My issue with Thibs is he's not going to evolve. It's wash rinse repeat.
The top teams have 9/10 guys that they play regularly. Thibs doesn't. Do you really think that the posters who want him gone is basing this off of 5 games?

Well, I'm not and I havent been in our Knick threads prior to last december since Mitch's draft year and I've watched the Knicks since Ewing and Starks. I've also watched a ton of basketball across the league and followed an entire league of stats as well. Thibs needs to humble himself- reinvent himself of we need to find a young brillant coach that is ready for the nba.

Thats "IF" we really want to win a chip in the next 3 years.

And one more thing...If we had 12 players built like Josh hart -then I would say we have a chance at beating anyone. The pace of this league has put Thibs's style in a position were he needs players that this CBA wont allow us to have.

[Capn'O]

I think hes the best player in the NBA.

It's either my guy or your (dastardly) guy.

Yeah they both are great. I think I give the slightest of edges to SGA because of his defensive ability. But Jokic is the best offensive player in the game.

Maybe the best the league has seen.

[3toheadmelo]

SGA looks like one of them dudes that's built to play in NY

I think hes the best player in the NBA.

It's either my guy or your (dastardly) guy.

I really wanted Tatum to win it this year but SGA and Jokic are going crazy lol

[Calinks]

I think you need to play through Towns more, especially against a team like OKC who doesn't have a lot of size. We have to be real though, Towns was not playing well early in that game. He turned the ball over a lot and they were playing excellent defense on him and forcing him into bad decisions. He picked it up in the third but it was too late.

I still think the team should operate a bit more through Towns just so that can be established, he will open things up and then the guard like JB can finish the games off when everything gets really tight.

I know some of you are clamoring for Jimmy Butler, I'd advise against that. No question the man is a baller and he would be a great player to help the Knicks on paper. But he really did KAT dirty, I think the potential for that pairing to be disastrous after the way Jimmy crashed out is just too high. Jimmy has no problem throwing an organization of players under the bus is he isn't happy. The vibes I see from this knicks team, I don't think they need that kind of element around. Also Jimmy is old, betting on old players tends to go poorly.

[Fury]

Is it possible for Thibs to be a good coach who is also not perfect? Is that possible? Does any criticism about him have to be met with “I GUESS EVERYTHING IS HIS FAULT NOW HUH?!” No man, just like a few things that can help improve the team!

[RHODEY]

Watch on YouTube

[Capn'O]

I think you need to play through Towns more, especially against a team like OKC who doesn't have a lot of size. We have to be real though, Towns was not playing well early in that game. He turned the ball over a lot and they were playing excellent defense on him and forcing him into bad decisions. He picked it up in the third but it was too late.

I still think the team should operate a bit more through Towns just so that can be established, he will open things up and then the guard like JB can finish the games off when everything gets really tight.

I know some of you are clamoring for Jimmy Butler, I'd advise against that. No question the man is a baller and he would be a great player to help the Knicks on paper. But he really did KAT dirty, I think the potential for that pairing to be disastrous after the way Jimmy crashed out is just too high. Jimmy has no problem throwing an organization of players under the bus is he isn't happy. The vibes I see from this knicks team, I don't think they need that kind of element around. Also Jimmy is old, betting on old players tends to go poorly.

Agreed with all. Jimmy is basically Larry Brown in player form.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Bench sucks, Thibs suck. Both can be true at the same time you dont have to pick a side lol

Nobody has ever said the bench is good, that's just a strawman argument these posters use to defend Tom. Everyone says the bench needs to play, regardless of outcome, like the Celtics don't have a good bench at all but they still play more than ours.

You were touting the bench’s net rating the other day. Proudly point out that they were top 10 in league. Why would you do that if you didn’t think the bench was good?

You're quoting a post about strawman arguments, while using a strawman argument, the irony is beautiful. I can point out that the bench is net positive on the season, while still not thinking they're good, because their net rating is just a statistical fact. You won't find me saying the bench is objectively good, because I haven't said that I have said they need to play regardless of whether or not they're good because most benches in the NBA are not good, and the most important thing about utilizing your bench is to help your starters.

Can you please explain to me why Tom's benches are always low minutes? Just one of you Thibs defenders, please just tell me why every fanbase complains about his usage of the bench. In 13 years, his average bench is ranked 24th in MPG, so in 13 years every bench he has basically sucks, or does he just not use them much. The Bulls fans complained about it, the Wolves fans did it and now we do it. I need to know how this could happen three times, in three separate places, to three different rosters in three different eras of the NBA. I want to see you throw logic in the bushes to defend this.

[mpharris36]

It's either my guy or your (dastardly) guy.

Yeah they both are great. I think I give the slightest of edges to SGA because of his defensive ability. But Jokic is the best offensive player in the game.

Maybe the best the league has seen.

Potentially...I mean everyone has seen the off/on stuff for Denver for Jokic...I think they go from being the best offense in the league to the league worse with him off the floor.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Why’s his form changing at 28 years old, should have been done years ago. He’s entering his prime

He's always had a weird form. He's always been a 37% career shooter from three. People talking about his form changing is just opinion.

it’s not, watch the games, from jumper to jumper his shot changes. there’s no real consistency

Meh. He's a career 37% shooter. It's possible he always had this hitch but, seeing it up close people think it's new. If he maintains his career avg on the season all of this talk is meaningless.

[RHODEY]

I get it these last 5 games have been frustrating, but man some people on here expect this **** to be easy and for the knicks to win 70 games, it’s like people forget how bad it was around here for years. I get expectations and rightfully so are high as they should be, but this takes time. Nothing is Meant to be easy, the knicks have flaws no doubt, but this sky is falling nonsense is ridiculous. Also, people need to understand Leon is NOT FIRING thibs based on 5 games while the team sits 11 games over .500 and 3rd in the east. Also, if you think thibs and leon who have literally completely turned this franchise around don’t know this team needs more depth that you are being foolish. Let me remind everyone nobody is winning a title in january, the key is to be healthy and playing your best ball in may, whatever you do in January despite how much importance people want to put on last night will mean NOTHING when round 1 of playoffs begin. Have some patience, this was not going to be a cake walk, thibs and leon know/knew this. Stop with the overreactions

I agree with some of this...
The bold is where I want to bring some clairity...
If we want to be great. If we want to build a dynasty. Get the best out of our highly talented group. Thibs is not the answer.
I am basing this off of his complete body of work; not 5 games. When you play a simple pick up game in the park. Do you always
drive the ball to the lane and never shoot? Or do you never drive the ball and always shoot when you take the check? Do you always dribble the ball with your right hand?
Now lets take it to the nba. Thibs has his players doing the same thing every time. I've watched it for 80/90 games now. I watched 3 OKC games this season and the 2nd game vs the Knicks - OKC did different things. My issue with Thibs is he's not going to evolve. It's wash rinse repeat.
The top teams have 9/10 guys that they play regularly. Thibs doesn't. Do you really think that the posters who want him gone is basing this off of 5 games?

Well, I'm not and I havent been in our Knick threads prior to last december since Mitch's draft year and I've watched the Knicks since Ewing and Starks. I've also watched a ton of basketball across the league and followed an entire league of stats as well. Thibs needs to humble himself- reinvent himself of we need to find a young brillant coach that is ready for the nba.

Thats "IF" we really want to win a chip in the next 3 years.

And one more thing...If we had 12 players built like Josh hart -then I would say we have a chance at beating anyone. The pace of this league has put Thibs's style in a position were he needs players that this CBA wont allow us to have.

But do we really have 9-10 guys we can play regularly? I do think Thibs should atleast trying Huk and ,maybe Kolek (defense?), but if you include Deuce that only makes 8. Payne has fallen off the Cliff, Shamet - streaky AF despite the good energy, Sims....

[Context]

I get it these last 5 games have been frustrating, but man some people on here expect this **** to be easy and for the knicks to win 70 games, it’s like people forget how bad it was around here for years. I get expectations and rightfully so are high as they should be, but this takes time. Nothing is Meant to be easy, the knicks have flaws no doubt, but this sky is falling nonsense is ridiculous. Also, people need to understand Leon is NOT FIRING thibs based on 5 games while the team sits 11 games over .500 and 3rd in the east. Also, if you think thibs and leon who have literally completely turned this franchise around don’t know this team needs more depth that you are being foolish. Let me remind everyone nobody is winning a title in january, the key is to be healthy and playing your best ball in may, whatever you do in January despite how much importance people want to put on last night will mean NOTHING when round 1 of playoffs begin. Have some patience, this was not going to be a cake walk, thibs and leon know/knew this. Stop with the overreactions

I agree with some of this...
The bold is where I want to bring some clairity...
If we want to be great. If we want to build a dynasty. Get the best out of our highly talented group. Thibs is not the answer.
I am basing this off of his complete body of work; not 5 games. When you play a simple pick up game in the park. Do you always
drive the ball to the lane and never shoot? Or do you never drive the ball and always shoot when you take the check? Do you always dribble the ball with your right hand?
Now lets take it to the nba. Thibs has his players doing the same thing every time. I've watched it for 80/90 games now. I watched 3 OKC games this season and the 2nd game vs the Knicks - OKC did different things. My issue with Thibs is he's not going to evolve. It's wash rinse repeat.
The top teams have 9/10 guys that they play regularly. Thibs doesn't. Do you really think that the posters who want him gone is basing this off of 5 games?

Well, I'm not and I havent been in our Knick threads prior to last december since Mitch's draft year and I've watched the Knicks since Ewing and Starks. I've also watched a ton of basketball across the league and followed an entire league of stats as well. Thibs needs to humble himself- reinvent himself of we need to find a young brillant coach that is ready for the nba.

Thats "IF" we really want to win a chip in the next 3 years.

And one more thing...If we had 12 players built like Josh hart -then I would say we have a chance at beating anyone. The pace of this league has put Thibs's style in a position were he needs players that this CBA wont allow us to have.

But do we really have 9-10 guys we can play regularly? I do think Thibs should atleast trying Huk and ,maybe Kolek (defense?), but if you include Deuce that only makes 8. Payne has fallen off the Cliff, Shamet - streaky AF despite the good energy, Sims....

they need time...best way i can put this is-play Brunson, Kat, Mikal, OG, Hart, Tyler, Payne,
Huk, Shamet. You commit to them period. Give them a real opportunity. X amount of time.
Not spot minutes. That has never been done. We went 5-7 guys from the beginning until 6/7
games ago(would have to look) and now you want to throw guys in and when they fail -you
hold it against them...

[Gravy]

Knicks are similar to the Nuggets this year. Top heavy team with a huge dropoff when the best players are not on the court. Which is why Jokic is top 5 in minutes. I'm sure their coach would prefer to play him under 30 mpg like OKC too and still be 4th in the west

[spree2kawhi]

Yeah they both are great. I think I give the slightest of edges to SGA because of his defensive ability. But Jokic is the best offensive player in the game.

Maybe the best the league has seen.

Potentially...I mean everyone has seen the off/on stuff for Denver for Jokic...I think they go from being the best offense in the league to the league worse with him off the floor.

Hard to pick anyone over Jokic, let’s be real.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Knicks are similar to the Nuggets this year. Top heavy team with a huge dropoff when the best players are not on the court. Which is why Jokic is top 5 in minutes. I'm sure their coach would prefer to play him under 30 mpg like OKC too and still be 4th in the west

The Nuggets have 1 player in the top 10, we have three at 1, 2, 7.

Usually when teammates are 1-2 in MPG, the coach gets fired shortly after.

[djsunyc]

the identity of this team is very different compared to the past few seaons. awful 4th quarter team. they desperately need a healthy mitchell robinson.

[whocares1]

the identity of this team is very different compared to the past few seaons. awful 4th quarter team. they desperately need a healthy mitchell robinson.

Thibs defense has always needed a roaming shot blocking big. He’s always had one until now. It’s easier to guard the perimeter when you’re not concerned that your guy might get all the way to the rim if he beats you off the dribble.

[thebuzzardman]

Knicks need to promote Dadiet and play him a lot. That will solve everything.

[Spree2Houston]

I'm not entirely sold on the "we don't have a bench". After Randle went down last season Thibs was running 8 and 1/2 player rotations basically. We had Mitch, Bogs and McBride off the bench with Precious and Burks getting spot minutes. Can we honestly say last year's bench was better than this years bench? Sure we miss Mitch but I think the other players are basically a wash.

This year is simply coming down to the fact that teams have started to figure us out, we have no offensive sets and our defense has taken a huge step backwards. All things the coaching staff needs to adjust but has not.

You answered your own question lol Mitch, Bogs, McBride, Burks, Precious >>>>>>Payne, Shamet, McBride, Precious


We had 2 shot creators coming off the bench in Burks and Bogs. We have none this year

Still not sold. Burks wasn't a huge part of our bench and didn't really start getting playing time until the injuries started piling up. Bogs was decent on offense but a huge liability on defense so I'm calling him a wash with Shamet/Payne. Other than Mitch I think our bench is fundamentally the same.

Burks and Bogs both averaged 20ppg on the season before being traded to the Knicks. They’re professional scorers. There’s no one the bench capable of averaging 20ppg even on a bad team.

[Gravy]

Knicks are similar to the Nuggets this year. Top heavy team with a huge dropoff when the best players are not on the court. Which is why Jokic is top 5 in minutes. I'm sure their coach would prefer to play him under 30 mpg like OKC too and still be 4th in the west

The Nuggets have 1 player in the top 10, we have three at 1, 2, 7.

Usually when teammates are 1-2 in MPG, the coach gets fired shortly after.

I dont recall a coach getting fired when they are 3rd in the conference with a top 5 overall record in the middle of the season. Do you know of any I missed?