Cade Cunningham should be an all star

[HardenGoat]

From a bust to a star. Where have I seen that before? .. RealGM?

[Ayt]

He’s better than Scottie Barnes. Way better. Big enough sample. He’s better than anyone from his class. And it’s not close. It won’t be at all going forward.

He is absolutely not better than Evan Mobley or Franz Wagner.

If given the choice, there is not a single owner, GM, coach, player or scout in the league, knowing everything about each player that they know now, who would take Wagner over Cade.

Zero.

None.

Only contrarian and/or illogical fans on the sidelines (who would face no real world repercussions from making such decision) would opt for Franz in such an either/or hypothetical.

Mobley or Cade is a much tougher decision and would depend entirely on the value you place on their two “critical-to-winning” in the modern NBA positions; a high-end 6’11” 3&D big vs a heliocentric 6’7” triple-double-threat lead guard.

I think most executives would be fairly split in that decision with maybe a slight edge to Mobley. Not because he’s the better player but more so due to the rarity and difficulty of finding that kind of big man in today’s game.

This entire post is a clown shoe factory.

[Mr Peanut]

LEBRON and EPM are commonly quoted on this board so could be assumed to be widely known, but the majority of NBA fans would have no idea what you're talking about i.e. niche.

Sure, but the average NBA fan mostly doesn't understand the sport enough to articulate a quality opinion to begin with. They mostly spit out ESPN-type stuff and the quality of discussion you hear at a pub on game night. So what worth the majority when they rarely have anything of value to say?

Definition of niche: denoting products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.

That quite well fits the definition of what advanced stats like LEBRON and EPM are. I'm not necessarily saying they're bad (although I do think they have their flaws and should be complementary to a discussion rather than some trump card), but they are niche by definition.

I also think it's a bit of a slippery slope to imply an elitist view that fans on a message board quoting advanced stats should be considered the peak of NBA analysis. I've certainly heard my share of of bad takes from "casual fans" who seem less informed, but I've also had pretty reasonable discussions with what some would label the "average NBA fan". Guys that watch their fair share of games but would never enter a message board or have the remotest idea what a LEBRON or EPM is, and yet can have fairly nuanced opinions and understanding of the game itself.

[Han Solo]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/15QnX5HNto/?mibextid=wwXIfr

[TravisScott55]

He 100% deserves to be an all star

[tsherkin]

Definition of niche: denoting products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.

That quite well fits the definition of what advanced stats like LEBRON and EPM are. I'm not necessarily saying they're bad (although I do think they have their flaws and should be complementary to a discussion rather than some trump card), but they are niche by definition.

I don't disagree with that part, obviously. Large swathes of NBA fandom don't even know what TS% is, let alone the more advanced single-number products and other plus-minus stuff. My point was more that their opinions are irrelevant because they're usually a source of low-quality, ill-educated garbage opinions.

I also think it's a bit of a slippery slope to imply an elitist view that fans on a message board quoting advanced stats should be considered the peak of NBA analysis.

Nah, it's not even the stats which make me say that. Most of them don't even have enough basic familiarity with rosters and sets and NBA history to forge relevant opinions. Whether or not they know about LEBRON or RAPM or DARKO or whatever the fancy stat de jour happens to be is of secondary concern.

[PhilBlackson]

From a bust to a star. Where have I seen that before? .. RealGM?

He was never a bust tf?!?

[NotaHypeJob]

There's no way you guys are saying LEBRON or EPM in real life

[Stromile12]

Fade for Cade.

[hauntedcomputer]

I went from skeptic to voting for him on a 3x day

[TheGeneral99]

Great player.

He has had some bad injury luck his first few years, but he's damn effective and a leader.

[mrmsix6]

Eh, I'm a Cade fan but I wouldn't go that far. Franz is the real deal and is every bit of a franchise player that Cade is although with more help aiding him.
I think both go ahead of Mobley if a team is starting a franchise. Mobley is the ultimate complimentary player, he's not a guy that can carry a team like the other two.

Evan Mobley is, right now, the best player on the best team in the league.

Most people haven't realized this yet. He's just going to keep getting better and it will become more and more obvious for the infrequent or casual Cavs observers.

[basketballRob]

I'm surprised that Franz is ahead of Mobley in DBPM and OBPM. Both sides of the ball. Franz clears SGA at 23, too.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=wagnefr01&p1yrfrom=2025&p1yrto=2025&player_id2=mobleev01&p2yrfrom=2025&p2yrto=2025

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[basketballRob]

Franz vs. SGA at 23. Franz is ahead of SGA on offense and defense.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=wagnefr01&p1yrfrom=2025&p1yrto=2025&player_id2=gilgesh01&p2yrfrom=2022&p2yrto=2022

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[ijspeelman]

There's no way you guys are saying LEBRON or EPM in real life

I prefer to call it Luck-adjusted player Estimate using a Box prior Regularized ON-OFF and Estimated Plus-Minus in real life. It makes me sound smarter when I give a take

[ijspeelman]

I'm surprised that Franz is ahead of Mobley in DBPM and OBPM. Both sides of the ball. Franz clears SGA at 23, too.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=wagnefr01&p1yrfrom=2025&p1yrto=2025&player_id2=mobleev01&p2yrfrom=2025&p2yrto=2025

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Just so you know DBPM isn't actually a ""defensive metric"". Bball-ref calcs BPM and OBPM separately and then subtracts OBPM from BPM to make DBPM. That number can be incredibly wonky (take a look at Jokic over the years).

Generally tho, I like BPM as an indicator of how good a player is, but I don't like ranking players solely on it. If a player is at 4 BPM and another is at 5 BPM, I don't think you can say another player is better than another. There is so much error in one-number metrics that it kinda helps tier players out, but not ultimately rank them.

I do think its arguable Franz has been more impactful to the Magic than Mobley has to the Cavaliers. I'm going to reference another wonky stat, but whatever lol. Magic, when Franz is on the court have a +7.7 net rating and when off they are -4.2 (11.9 on-off) whereas when Mobley is on the court the Cavs have a +15.4 net rating and +7.5 when on the bench (7.9 on-off). Magic have been incredibly injured so they've relied on Wagner as a primary creator and he showed he could increase his volume by 20% and keep the same efficiency. Not that this affects current All-Star voting, but I don't think we will see the numbers when he returns bc he will share the ball again with Paolo (which is good for the Magic).

[Ducklett]

I'm surprised that Franz is ahead of Mobley in DBPM and OBPM. Both sides of the ball. Franz clears SGA at 23, too.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=wagnefr01&p1yrfrom=2025&p1yrto=2025&player_id2=mobleev01&p2yrfrom=2025&p2yrto=2025

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

Just so you know DBPM isn't actually a ""defensive metric"". Bball-ref calcs BPM and OBPM separately and then subtracts OBPM from BPM to make DBPM. That number can be incredibly wonky (take a look at Jokic over the years).

Generally tho, I like BPM as an indicator of how good a player is, but I don't like ranking players solely on it. If a player is at 4 BPM and another is at 5 BPM, I don't think you can say another player is better than another. There is so much error in one-number metrics that it kinda helps tier players out, but not ultimately rank them.

I do think its arguable Franz has been more impactful to the Magic than Mobley has to the Cavaliers. I'm going to reference another wonky stat, but whatever lol. Magic, when Franz is on the court have a +7.7 net rating and when off they are -4.2 (11.9 on-off) whereas when Mobley is on the court the Cavs have a +15.4 net rating and +7.5 when on the bench (7.9 on-off). Magic have been incredibly injured so they've relied on Wagner as a primary creator and he showed he could increase his volume by 20% and keep the same efficiency. Not that this affects current All-Star voting, but I don't think we will see the numbers when he returns bc he will share the ball again with Paolo (which is good for the Magic).

I agree with most of your post. I will say that not having Paolo and having to carry the team for that stretch has made him into a different player that I am not sure he would have got to otherwise. He even mentions it in some interviews that he had to learn to take "bad shots" because he was the man instead of looking for the right play to get teammates involved. I think that even with Paolo back you are going to see Franz playing like he did this season more than you see the Franz of previous seasons.

[ijspeelman]

I do think its arguable Franz has been more impactful to the Magic than Mobley has to the Cavaliers. I'm going to reference another wonky stat, but whatever lol. Magic, when Franz is on the court have a +7.7 net rating and when off they are -4.2 (11.9 on-off) whereas when Mobley is on the court the Cavs have a +15.4 net rating and +7.5 when on the bench (7.9 on-off). Magic have been incredibly injured so they've relied on Wagner as a primary creator and he showed he could increase his volume by 20% and keep the same efficiency. Not that this affects current All-Star voting, but I don't think we will see the numbers when he returns bc he will share the ball again with Paolo (which is good for the Magic).

I agree with most of your post. I will say that not having Paolo and having to carry the team for that stretch has made him into a different player that I am not sure he would have got to otherwise. He even mentions it in some interviews that he had to learn to take "bad shots" because he was the man instead of looking for the right play to get teammates involved. I think that even with Paolo back you are going to see Franz playing like he did this season more than you see the Franz of previous seasons.

I think I misworded what I meant to say there. I agree that he will have more free rein on-ball, but I just don't think you will see him with all-NBA numbers to strong all-star numbers on a squad where he is not the number one offensive option. He can still grow, but I also cannot see him as a number one option on a championship contender despite what he showed while being forced into that position. Definitely not trying to slight Franz, just feel like he's a second or third option on a really good team.

[basketballRob]

I do think its arguable Franz has been more impactful to the Magic than Mobley has to the Cavaliers. I'm going to reference another wonky stat, but whatever lol. Magic, when Franz is on the court have a +7.7 net rating and when off they are -4.2 (11.9 on-off) whereas when Mobley is on the court the Cavs have a +15.4 net rating and +7.5 when on the bench (7.9 on-off). Magic have been incredibly injured so they've relied on Wagner as a primary creator and he showed he could increase his volume by 20% and keep the same efficiency. Not that this affects current All-Star voting, but I don't think we will see the numbers when he returns bc he will share the ball again with Paolo (which is good for the Magic).

I agree with most of your post. I will say that not having Paolo and having to carry the team for that stretch has made him into a different player that I am not sure he would have got to otherwise. He even mentions it in some interviews that he had to learn to take "bad shots" because he was the man instead of looking for the right play to get teammates involved. I think that even with Paolo back you are going to see Franz playing like he did this season more than you see the Franz of previous seasons.

I think I misworded what I meant to say there. I agree that he will have more free rein on-ball, but I just don't think you will see him with all-NBA numbers to strong all-star numbers on a squad where he is not the number one offensive option. He can still grow, but I also cannot see him as a number one option on a championship contender despite what he showed while being forced into that position. Definitely not trying to slight Franz, just feel like he's a second or third option on a really good team.

We'll see. In the first 3 games with Paolo, before Franz had the flu, he averaged 25/6/4. Theoretically, Franz will get better looks because of Paolo's ability to draw double teams and pass.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/franz-wagner-first-3-games-this-season-stats

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[ijspeelman]

I think I misworded what I meant to say there. I agree that he will have more free rein on-ball, but I just don't think you will see him with all-NBA numbers to strong all-star numbers on a squad where he is not the number one offensive option. He can still grow, but I also cannot see him as a number one option on a championship contender despite what he showed while being forced into that position. Definitely not trying to slight Franz, just feel like he's a second or third option on a really good team.

We'll see. In the first 3 games with Paolo, before Franz had the flu, he averaged 25/6/4. Theoretically, Franz will get better looks because of Paolo's ability to draw double teams and pass.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/franz-wagner-first-3-games-this-season-stats

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That's fair. We will see.

I know its small sample for Paolo, but I want to see if he can stick close to this jump he's potentially having and I want to see more of Franz and Paolo together if they are both having this kind of jump.

Anyway that's enough Wagner talk in a Cade thread haha