Detroit and Timberwolves Trade -- Possible win win?

[TheZachAttack]

I'd love to see the Wolves bolster the Piston's playoff chances with a Randle trade . I think players like Ivey, Sasser, Duran, Beasley, Hardaway Jr and Isiah Stewart are all pretty interesting and would help the Wolves. One interesting thing about Detroit is that they may also be willing to give up more value if we gave them back the rights to their pick.

For the Wolves

The most realistic trade is probably something like Sasser/Hardaway Jr or Beasley/Isiah Stewart for Randle and pieces. I think we would want Ivey or Duran included but Detroit doesn't have a great other options at C and Ivey's injury makes it tough to trade for him. In addition, there's not a guarantee that Randle would sign which is part of why including the pick could be beneficial.

I think I'd personally be willing to do something like

Stewart (15m)
Beasley or Hardaway Jr (6m or 16m)
Sasser (2.7m)

for

Randle (33m)
Unprotecting the Detroit pick
Leonard Miller

This would allow the Wolves to add another shooter, a backup center behind Rudy, and a good shooter like Beasley or a microwave bench scorer in Hardaway Jr. Sasser has a lot of Conley/Tyus type qualities to his game. Stewart has shown flashes as a shooter and can play the 5 or the 4. Beasley or Hardaway Jr would help give the Wolves more shooting and ball handling creation and be options fo the Wolves to use the MLE next year to retain one of them if the fit works.

I think Hardaway Jr may be a better fit this year. But Beasley's shooting is interesting to add to this team.

For the Pistons

I know Randle is a controversial player. He is a good player, but not a great fit on the Wolves because we play McDaniels and Gobert and have issues with spacing that Randle does not fit well in. Randle is actually having a pretty efficient season and is really good especially when he plays in some of our lineups with more spaced floors as a quasi-point forward. He does hold onto the ball, but he's also really good at creating open 3 point looks when he draws defenses in.

I think he would potentially be a good fit on Detroit playing with a lot of the athleticism and spacing that you all have and be a solid secondary volume scorer behind Cade and when Cade is on the bench. I think the Pistons have a lot of interesting players that the Wolves would be interested in as well. I think this could look a lot like Blake Griffen in Detroit.

Miller also gives the Pistons another talented young prospect, who can be developed into the role that Stewart had and again offer the Pistons some future value.

This move could allow Detroit to have the scoring punch behind Cade to make a playoff push this year. In addition, giving the rights to the pick back allows Detroit to have some insurance if Randle opts out and/or the bottom were to fall out in some way. Detroit really is not trading away their true core and has opportunities to add another big in the draft behind Duran.

[Snakebites]

Ah okay. I’d reword “unprotecting the pick”.

Most won’t read your entire explanation and the way you’ve got it worded indicates that the Pistons would be removing the protections on the pick, not getting the pick returned.

[jayjaysee]

Definitely should reword the OP imo. That pick takes it from great to Minnesota to pretty rough IMO.

I think if you are doing something around the OP you make it like…

Beef Stew, Sasser, Klintman for Randle, Ingles, Miller, Det first (and the Utah 2nd?)

Getting under the second apron by using all of Det’a cap space and their roomLE

[chrbal]

I don’t see Harris/Randle working. Harris/something for Randle+ is ok, but I don’t see it being worth it for Detroit. I don’t think the Wolves would want that swap either

[zeebneeb]

Don't like it. Detroits cap space is worth a 1st at minimum, and I'd argue that Stewart is as well. Its well known he is one of the most inquired about players on Detroits roster, as he offers three-point shooting, elite defensive play, rebounding, and screen setting, at an extremely reasonable price.

THJ/Beasley both offer Cade freedom to be himself, unlocking his game. Beasley isn't just some shooter either. He is second in the league in made threes, at 39%.

Randle is absolutely not worth these players, let alone one pick, Detroits own.

This is not Detroit under Weaver. We all don't know how stupid Langdon is, until he makes a real move.

Adding Miller, a former 2nd round pick, adds nothing to this deal.

This deal greatly weakens Detroit, greatly strengthens the Wolves, and helps their cap issues.

As for the suggestion that Detroit would add Duren, or even Ivey is, well, ridiculous for a 30 year old, chaotic NBA player, that would immediately crush the teams spacing.

Nothing here works. Value poor. Shooting brutal. Timeline(age) problems. Shocking. Fit. 1st year Cade bad. Same reason I want no part of Ingram.

If Langdon did this deal, he will have already placed one foot out the door in Detroit.

[wolves_89]

I don't get how this could be a win for the Wolves. They get considerably worse immediately while also giving up a lot of future value. After the KAT trade, I just don't see Minnesota doing another deal where the only real benefit is dumping salary.

[Snakebites]

I’d probably do this, mainly because I’m less of a fan of Stewart.

I totally get why Wolves fans wouldn’t care for it.

[winforlose]

I’d probably do this, mainly because I’m less of a fan of Stewart.

I totally get why Wolves fans wouldn’t care for it.

Zach is on our board. He doesn’t understand that his trade is counterproductive to his other goals. For one, he wants to resign both Naz and NAW. But he doesn’t understand that even if Randle opts out and we get clear of the 30 mil we owe him next year, we only have about 9 million to sign two players and stay below the tax line. Moving Randle for Stewart at 15 means we will be a tax team next year. That means that in 26/27 we start paying repeater penalties or we have to run the roster back again without much if any external improvement. If the Wolves see Beef Stew as a C of the future then you might target him. But that also assumes you are moving on from NAW, and if that is true, you want to make this deal bigger and trade NAW for value now.

[shrink]

The deal works legally with Beasley, but can’t be constructed with Hardaway Jr.

Appreciate the detail in your proposal, OP!

[Snakebites]

I’d probably do this, mainly because I’m less of a fan of Stewart.

I totally get why Wolves fans wouldn’t care for it.

Zach is on our board. He doesn’t understand that his trade is counterproductive to his other goals. For one, he wants to resign both Naz and NAW. But he doesn’t understand that even if Randle opts out and we get clear of the 30 mil we owe him next year, we only have about 9 million to sign two players and stay below the tax line. Moving Randle for Stewart at 15 means we will be a tax team next year. That means that in 26/27 we start paying repeater penalties or we have to run the roster back again without much if any external improvement. If the Wolves see Beef Stew as a C of the future then you might target him. But that also assumes you are moving on from NAW, and if that is true, you want to make this deal bigger and trade NAW for value now.

Hmm. Seems to be that the Wolves are in a major salary pickle irrespective of the merits of this particular deal.

It’s not counterproductive to the goals, it just doesn’t save them nearly enough money to get out from under their issues.

I still get the lack of appeal though as this deal neither makes the team better now nor in terms of future value.

[winforlose]

I’d probably do this, mainly because I’m less of a fan of Stewart.

I totally get why Wolves fans wouldn’t care for it.

Zach is on our board. He doesn’t understand that his trade is counterproductive to his other goals. For one, he wants to resign both Naz and NAW. But he doesn’t understand that even if Randle opts out and we get clear of the 30 mil we owe him next year, we only have about 9 million to sign two players and stay below the tax line. Moving Randle for Stewart at 15 means we will be a tax team next year. That means that in 26/27 we start paying repeater penalties or we have to run the roster back again without much if any external improvement. If the Wolves see Beef Stew as a C of the future then you might target him. But that also assumes you are moving on from NAW, and if that is true, you want to make this deal bigger and trade NAW for value now.

Hmm. Seems to be that the Wolves are in a major salary pickle irrespective of the merits of this particular deal.

It’s not counterproductive to the goals, it just doesn’t save them nearly enough money to get out from under their issues.

I still get the lack of appeal though as this deal neither makes the team better now nor in terms of future value.

The counterproductive is either trying to cut the salary to keep NAW, while also trying to bring an expensive backup C. The goals are viewed as opposite by than fan base as the fear is that the team won’t go into the tax to make both happen.

15 million for Beef Stew, 15 Million for NAW, and 22 million for Naz puts into the tax without a 14 rostered player. Assuming we sign a 2nd to a cheap four year minimum (Clark seems the most likely, and then replace his two way with another 2nd round pick made this season,) we still are in the repeater tax in 26/27.

[Kalamazoo317]

THJ for Randle works on the trade checker. Not 100% sure on the fit of that for Detroit, but I do think we need a better iso scorer to complement Cade and with THJ being expiring, Minny saves basically Randle's whole cap number.

[Kalamazoo317]

How about THJ, Fontecchio, Toronto 2025 second for Randle, Conley (mostly negative salary at this point, but gives us a back up ballhandler), return of control of our first rounder?

[winforlose]

How about THJ, Fontecchio, Toronto 2025 second for Randle, Conley (mostly negative salary at this point, but gives us a back up ballhandler), return of control of our first rounder?

Conley has an agreement with management not to move, plus we are getting worse for the privilege of moving a first. We have almost no picks in the next seven years. Wolves don’t do this even with the pick removed, much less with it included.

[wolves_89]

I’d probably do this, mainly because I’m less of a fan of Stewart.

I totally get why Wolves fans wouldn’t care for it.

Zach is on our board. He doesn’t understand that his trade is counterproductive to his other goals. For one, he wants to resign both Naz and NAW. But he doesn’t understand that even if Randle opts out and we get clear of the 30 mil we owe him next year, we only have about 9 million to sign two players and stay below the tax line. Moving Randle for Stewart at 15 means we will be a tax team next year. That means that in 26/27 we start paying repeater penalties or we have to run the roster back again without much if any external improvement. If the Wolves see Beef Stew as a C of the future then you might target him. But that also assumes you are moving on from NAW, and if that is true, you want to make this deal bigger and trade NAW for value now.

Hmm. Seems to be that the Wolves are in a major salary pickle irrespective of the merits of this particular deal.

It’s not counterproductive to the goals, it just doesn’t save them nearly enough money to get out from under their issues.

I still get the lack of appeal though as this deal neither makes the team better now nor in terms of future value.

I don't think the longer term salary worry is all that big an issue as the Wolves won't face the repeater tax until 2026-27. That means I fully expect Minnesota to be a luxury tax team in 2025-26, though they will likely try to get under the 2nd apron (which will be around $208M). To get under the 2nd Apron next season while keeping Naz and NAW will require Randle not picking up his option or moving him for a player(s) making $15-20M next season. There is no rush to make a bad Randle trade now as there will be more flexibility in the offseason to make a move (and there is no move needed if Randle opts out, though I could still see a sign-and-trade for a $15M player).

With 10% annual increases, the luxury tax line for 2025-26 is going to be around $207M meaning that with re-signing Naz and NAW the Wolves would have Dillingham, Edwards, McDaniels, Reid, Gobert, DiVincenzo, NAW, Shannon, and Miller under contract while still being around $30M under the tax line. Add a re-signed Minott and a couple of 1st round picks (Detroit pick plus a pick in 2026) and Minnesota would have 12 players under contract while still being around $15M under the tax (they could even sign a player using most of the non-taxpayer MLE).

EDIT: the second paragraph should have read the luxury tax line for 2026-27 is going to be around $207M.

[winforlose]

Zach is on our board. He doesn’t understand that his trade is counterproductive to his other goals. For one, he wants to resign both Naz and NAW. But he doesn’t understand that even if Randle opts out and we get clear of the 30 mil we owe him next year, we only have about 9 million to sign two players and stay below the tax line. Moving Randle for Stewart at 15 means we will be a tax team next year. That means that in 26/27 we start paying repeater penalties or we have to run the roster back again without much if any external improvement. If the Wolves see Beef Stew as a C of the future then you might target him. But that also assumes you are moving on from NAW, and if that is true, you want to make this deal bigger and trade NAW for value now.

Hmm. Seems to be that the Wolves are in a major salary pickle irrespective of the merits of this particular deal.

It’s not counterproductive to the goals, it just doesn’t save them nearly enough money to get out from under their issues.

I still get the lack of appeal though as this deal neither makes the team better now nor in terms of future value.

I don't think the longer term salary worry is all that big an issue as the Wolves won't face the repeater tax until 2026-27. That means I fully expect Minnesota to be a luxury tax team in 2025-26, though they will likely try to get under the 2nd apron (which will be around $208M). To get under the 2nd Apron next season while keeping Naz and NAW will require Randle not picking up his option or moving him for a player(s) making $15-20M. There is no rush to make a bad Randle trade now as there will be more flexibility in the offseason to make a move (and there is no move needed if Randle opts out, though I could still see a sign-and-trade for a $15M player).

With 10% annual increases, the luxury tax line for 2025-26 is going to be around $207M meaning that with re-signing Naz and NAW the Wolves would have Dillingham, Edwards, McDaniels, Reid, Gobert, DiVincenzo, NAW, Shannon, and Miller under contract while still being around $30M under the tax line. Add a re-signed Minott and a couple of 1st round picks (Detroit pick plus a pick in 2026) and Minnesota would have 12 players under contract while still being around $15M under the tax (they could even sign a player using most of the non-taxpayer MLE)

The tax line is 187 and change. I think you mean the 2nd apron will be 207.

[wolves_89]

Hmm. Seems to be that the Wolves are in a major salary pickle irrespective of the merits of this particular deal.

It’s not counterproductive to the goals, it just doesn’t save them nearly enough money to get out from under their issues.

I still get the lack of appeal though as this deal neither makes the team better now nor in terms of future value.

I don't think the longer term salary worry is all that big an issue as the Wolves won't face the repeater tax until 2026-27. That means I fully expect Minnesota to be a luxury tax team in 2025-26, though they will likely try to get under the 2nd apron (which will be around $208M). To get under the 2nd Apron next season while keeping Naz and NAW will require Randle not picking up his option or moving him for a player(s) making $15-20M. There is no rush to make a bad Randle trade now as there will be more flexibility in the offseason to make a move (and there is no move needed if Randle opts out, though I could still see a sign-and-trade for a $15M player).

With 10% annual increases, the luxury tax line for 2025-26 is going to be around $207M meaning that with re-signing Naz and NAW the Wolves would have Dillingham, Edwards, McDaniels, Reid, Gobert, DiVincenzo, NAW, Shannon, and Miller under contract while still being around $30M under the tax line. Add a re-signed Minott and a couple of 1st round picks (Detroit pick plus a pick in 2026) and Minnesota would have 12 players under contract while still being around $15M under the tax (they could even sign a player using most of the non-taxpayer MLE)

The tax line is 187 and change. I think you mean the 2nd apron will be 207.

That's correct, though the mistake wasn't in in the $207M figure it was in saying 2025-26 when I intended to say the 2026-27 luxury tax line.

[Kalamazoo317]

How about THJ, Fontecchio, Toronto 2025 second for Randle, Conley (mostly negative salary at this point, but gives us a back up ballhandler), return of control of our first rounder?

Conley has an agreement with management not to move, plus we are getting worse for the privilege of moving a first. We have almost no picks in the next seven years. Wolves don’t do this even with the pick removed, much less with it included.

No worries. I think Randle to the Pistons is a pretty big stretch and doesn't really fit what we're after, so was just trying to imagine scenarios in which it'd work for us if cap savings were really the goal for Minny. Probably just not a trade to be made between Detroit and Minny.

[tmorgan]

Randle just isn’t a “play with Cade” guy. We need defenders (no), shooters (kinda) and finishers, not iso players.

I get the Julius is a good passer for a big, but that’s just him running the offense instead of Cade. Not what we need.

Now we DO need a backup PG this year to play when Cade sits. But that’s not Randle.