Potential Zach Trade Partners? 24/25 Edition

[Chi town]

Rip Hamilton was not the first option. Billups was. Rip just ran off screens the whole game. He didn’t do anything off the dribble and didn’t create anything. He may have led scoring but he def wasn’t the first option.

[Anderson Hunt]

Rip Hamilton was not the first option. Billups was. Rip just ran off screens the whole game. He didn’t do anything off the dribble and didn’t create anything. He may have led scoring but he def wasn’t the first option.

My definition of "first option" is the guy who takes the most shots every game.

He may not be your go-to scorer in the waning minutes of a game, but night in and night out he's the guy on your team you want shooting the most.

You are fudging the definition of "first option" to include dribbling and creating opportunities for others. Ideally, sure, you'd want your first option to be a dribbler and adept passer, but there are countless "first option" players throughout the history of the league who didn't fit that criteria.

[Anderson Hunt]

LaVine's best fit is probably still with the Lakers, but they have garbage assets in the short term for us, so I doubt that happens.

Not sure LaVine fits well with Denver.

I personally would keep him considering he's been a positive player this year and I think he'll age well with his shot-making ability, but if they do trade him, I hope we get good value back.

As part of a larger four-team deal with MIA, LAL, and GSW ...

Bulls out: LaVine, Vucevic, Lonzo Ball, Patrick Williams, and Jevon Carter

Bulls in: Butler, Duncan Robinson, Looney, Hachimura, Vanderbilt, Gary Payton, Reddish, and Jaxon Hayes

Bulls waive: Torrey Craig, Julian Phillips, and Chris Duarte

PG - Giddy - Dosunmu - Tucker
SG - White - Payton - Robinson
C --- Looney - Smith - Hayes
PF - Hachimura - Vanderbilt - Buzelis
SF - Butler - Terry - Reddish

Good for the Bulls because even if Butler picks up his 50 million dollar option next year, they get tremendous cap relief while bringing back a big name and two modestly paid but intriguing forwards in Hachimura and Vanderbilt. They also get to pull the plug on the Patrick Williams experience.

Bad for the Bulls because they may only be left with Hachimura and Vanderbilt after getting rid of the entire starting five that at one point led the Eastern Conference (DeRozan, LaVine, Ball, Vucevic, and Williams).

[dougthonus]

Rip Hamilton was not the first option. Billups was. Rip just ran off screens the whole game. He didn’t do anything off the dribble and didn’t create anything. He may have led scoring but he def wasn’t the first option.

My definition of "first option" is the guy who takes the most shots every game.

He may not be your go-to scorer in the waning minutes of a game, but night in and night out he's the guy on your team you want shooting the most.

You are fudging the definition of "first option" to include dribbling and creating opportunities for others. Ideally, sure, you'd want your first option to be a dribbler and adept passer, but there are countless "first option" players throughout the history of the league who didn't fit that criteria.

I think using the term "first option" is a really broad category. Hamilton technically was the first option in a pretty egalitarian offense, but his game isn't the type you think of when you think first option nor what people mean when they talk about "first option" players, and so I think semantically you are just talking apples and oranges. People who describe a "first option" player do not mean that technically he led his team in shots, they mean a dominant offensive player that creates significant matchup advantages. In that sense, despite being a literal first option in Detroit, he doesn't qualify as a "first option" type player in the sense of what people usually mean semantically when they say the words. Ron Mercer took the most shots per game in 2000-2001 for the Bulls, but no one would describe Ron Mercer as a first option player.

Can you win with a first option like Hamilton? Obviously you can, because the Pistons did, but the path is also extremely rare, the vast majority of teams that win have a first option like you think of the traditional first option, the guy who takes a dominant amount of the shots and also can create dominant advantages by themselves drawing double/triple teams all the time. Hamilton certainly wasn't that type of player despite being technically the first option.

Off the top of my head, maybe the Spurs the year they beat the Heat is other example of a team that was built around a very egalitarian offense that didn't have a dominant player (though Kawhi would become one later in his career and Duncan obviously was one earlier in his career neither were operating at that level this year).

At any rate, I don't think either use of the term is wrong, but it's more common that people mean the dominant player that takes a significantly larger share of his team's offense than anyone else. I think people would describe that Pistons team or the Spurs team I mentioned as teams that lacked a traditional first option. Obviously they had someone that filled in the role for their team, but not a player that would fill that role on almost any team they went to.

[WindyCityBorn]

LaVine's best fit is probably still with the Lakers, but they have garbage assets in the short term for us, so I doubt that happens.

Not sure LaVine fits well with Denver.

I personally would keep him considering he's been a positive player this year and I think he'll age well with his shot-making ability, but if they do trade him, I hope we get good value back.

As part of a larger four-team deal with MIA, LAL, and GSW ...

Bulls out: LaVine, Vucevic, Lonzo Ball, Patrick Williams, and Jevon Carter

Bulls in: Butler, Duncan Robinson, Looney, Hachimura, Vanderbilt, Gary Payton, Reddish, and Jaxon Hayes

Bulls waive: Torrey Craig, Julian Phillips, and Chris Duarte

PG - Giddy - Dosunmu - Tucker
SG - White - Payton - Robinson
C --- Looney - Smith - Hayes
PF - Hachimura - Vanderbilt - Buzelis
SF - Butler - Terry - Reddish

Good for the Bulls because even if Butler picks up his 50 million dollar option next year, they get tremendous cap relief while bringing back a big name and two modestly paid but intriguing forwards in Hachimura and Vanderbilt. They also get to pull the plug on the Patrick Williams experience.

Bad for the Bulls because they may only be left with Hachimura and Vanderbilt after getting rid of the entire starting five that at one point led the Eastern Conference (DeRozan, LaVine, Ball, Vucevic, and Williams).

No

[nitetrain8603]

Rui is not interesting at all. Vanderbilt is a 8th guy off the bench. I think Bulls fans more than anyone else have this weird obsession with getting worse on paper and falling in love with trading the best player in the deal because they're not perfect.

Butler is aging. I like him more than most on this board. He's a dog. But at this stage, he needs to be on a team where he has two legit other studs. He would be great with Dallas or PHX IMO. Or even back to Minny. Not with the Bulls.

We need to stop thinking about trades that bring in worse assets. We need to stop falling in love with fringe rotational guys and aging vets.

/end rant

[HomoSapien]

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Quotes from the previous game. I think it's clear, what we're all seeing as a collective fan base doesn't match the perception around the league. I'm more than happy keeping him.

[sco]

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Quotes from the previous game. I think it's clear, what we're all seeing as a collective fan base doesn't match the perception around the league. I'm more than happy keeping him.

I am too. I'd much rather see if Coby, Vuc, Pat and POR 1st could net us an upgrade into the starting line-up, and see how that works with Zach.

[nitetrain8603]

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Quotes from the previous game. I think it's clear, what we're all seeing as a collective fan base doesn't match the perception around the league. I'm more than happy keeping him.

I am too. I'd much rather see if Coby, Vuc, Pat and POR 1st could net us an upgrade into the starting line-up, and see how that works with Zach.

As would I. I much rather see a Coby, Ayo, Pat, a protected 1st and two 2nds sent to NO for Zion. It can't happen before Jan 15th IIRC, but I think Zion needs a change of scenery as he just doesn't want to be in NO. They need to blow it up and this would jumpstart a rebuild. They could also look to trade CJ and/or Dejounte and really facilitate the rebuild. It allows you to keep Brandon Ingram, be bad enough to get high picks, collect other picks from teams and or young assets like Coby.

I think Zion and Ball have a great relationship and it allows them to have more fun and play freely. It's buying cheap on a potential stud player. It also helps you correct the mistake of PWill. You can then decide to flip Vuc still, or keep him.

[Red8911]

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Quotes from the previous game. I think it's clear, what we're all seeing as a collective fan base doesn't match the perception around the league. I'm more than happy keeping him.

Lonzo and Zach are boys what else was he going to say. Also everyone has tried with Patrick but Patrick is in his own world.

[HomoSapien]

Lonzo and Zach are boys what else was he going to say. Also everyone has tried with Patrick but Patrick is in his own world.

That seemed overly effusive to me.

[ChettheJet]

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Quotes from the previous game. I think it's clear, what we're all seeing as a collective fan base doesn't match the perception around the league. I'm more than happy keeping him.

In the win over the Wizards, Patrick had 3 assists, all went to Zach going to the basket, did you see Zach try to reciprocate?

Lonzo is a team guy, and I want him back next year and beyond. He's going to say Zach is a pro and complete player, but I've been a Bulls fan since before both of them were born and have seen Zach on I think one winning team. Black and Red all the way but let's be honest.

Stacey King is dead bang wrong when he says Patrick knows where he can score points out on the break, rebounding etc so they can't run plays for him. Patrick is exactly the guy they need to run play for because everybody in the building and on TV sees he cannot score those other ways. So run the plays that pt him in a position to post up, go back door on the baseline, the lob dunk not just so he scores but the guy guarding him can't just monitor him in the corner, he has to guard him all 24 seconds and double anybody else.

[WesPeace]

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Quotes from the previous game. I think it's clear, what we're all seeing as a collective fan base doesn't match the perception around the league. I'm more than happy keeping him.

I am too. I'd much rather see if Coby, Vuc, Pat and POR 1st could net us an upgrade into the starting line-up, and see how that works with Zach.

As would I. I much rather see a Coby, Ayo, Pat, a protected 1st and two 2nds sent to NO for Zion. It can't happen before Jan 15th IIRC, but I think Zion needs a change of scenery as he just doesn't want to be in NO. They need to blow it up and this would jumpstart a rebuild. They could also look to trade CJ and/or Dejounte and really facilitate the rebuild. It allows you to keep Brandon Ingram, be bad enough to get high picks, collect other picks from teams and or young assets like Coby.

I think Zion and Ball have a great relationship and it allows them to have more fun and play freely. It's buying cheap on a potential stud player. It also helps you correct the mistake of PWill. You can then decide to flip Vuc still, or keep him.

Houly overpayment for Zion - Ayo, Coby, PWill and 3 draft pick??? You are even worse than AKME haha..

PWill, Coby and draft pick, yeah ok..

But as some posters already said and I did last year (not here obviously), Zach is a keeper over Coby..

[nitetrain8603]

I am too. I'd much rather see if Coby, Vuc, Pat and POR 1st could net us an upgrade into the starting line-up, and see how that works with Zach.

As would I. I much rather see a Coby, Ayo, Pat, a protected 1st and two 2nds sent to NO for Zion. It can't happen before Jan 15th IIRC, but I think Zion needs a change of scenery as he just doesn't want to be in NO. They need to blow it up and this would jumpstart a rebuild. They could also look to trade CJ and/or Dejounte and really facilitate the rebuild. It allows you to keep Brandon Ingram, be bad enough to get high picks, collect other picks from teams and or young assets like Coby.

I think Zion and Ball have a great relationship and it allows them to have more fun and play freely. It's buying cheap on a potential stud player. It also helps you correct the mistake of PWill. You can then decide to flip Vuc still, or keep him.

Houly overpayment for Zion - Ayo, Coby, PWill and 3 draft pick??? You are even worse than AKME haha..

PWill, Coby and draft pick, yeah ok..

But as some posters already said and I did last year (not here obviously), Zach is a keeper over Coby..

I'm okay with that. I'm just stating how far I'm willing to go.

[League Circles]

IMO Zach has been playing in a way this season that makes his contract virtually a value-deal.

[sco]

IMO Zach has been playing in a way this season that makes his contract virtually a value-deal.

His stats are very good. I think it is arguable he's gone from not worth his contract to being worth it. I'll stop short of it being a value from two vantage points, first, I think the new CBA made deals like Zach's more problematic in light of the 2nd apron, and if you see Zach as a very-good 3rd option, it is too constraining, but if you see him as a viable 2nd option on a contender, then probably fine. Second point related to how many bad decisions he makes during games. Maybe that is just him showing that he isn't a first option guy because he can't do the stuff he tries to do in key situations, and we don't have a true #1 option here to do that stuff...or maybe he just makes bad decisions some times. I don't want to say it's low BBIQ because I don't think that, but it may be fair to say he doesn't have a high BBIQ.

[League Circles]

IMO Zach has been playing in a way this season that makes his contract virtually a value-deal.

His stats are very good. I think it is arguable he's gone from not worth his contract to being worth it. I'll stop short of it being a value from two vantage points, first, I think the new CBA made deals like Zach's more problematic in light of the 2nd apron, and if you see Zach as a very-good 3rd option, it is too constraining, but if you see him as a viable 2nd option on a contender, then probably fine. Second point related to how many bad decisions he makes during games. Maybe that is just him showing that he isn't a first option guy because he can't do the stuff he tries to do in key situations, and we don't have a true #1 option here to do that stuff...or maybe he just makes bad decisions some times. I don't want to say it's low BBIQ because I don't think that, but it may be fair to say he doesn't have a high BBIQ.

I think he's played a lot smarter this year and IMO he's obviously good enough to be a 2nd offensive option on a contender, though not necessarily the 2nd best player on such a team. But I kinda think that the third best player on a contender should / could still be making his contract.

[jnrjr79]

IMO Zach has been playing in a way this season that makes his contract virtually a value-deal.

His stats are very good. I think it is arguable he's gone from not worth his contract to being worth it. I'll stop short of it being a value from two vantage points, first, I think the new CBA made deals like Zach's more problematic in light of the 2nd apron, and if you see Zach as a very-good 3rd option, it is too constraining, but if you see him as a viable 2nd option on a contender, then probably fine. Second point related to how many bad decisions he makes during games. Maybe that is just him showing that he isn't a first option guy because he can't do the stuff he tries to do in key situations, and we don't have a true #1 option here to do that stuff...or maybe he just makes bad decisions some times. I don't want to say it's low BBIQ because I don't think that, but it may be fair to say he doesn't have a high BBIQ.

Yeah, the effect of the new cap rules seems to basically be that teams want 2 max players, but not 3. So assessing Zach's value sort of necessarily requires you to consider whether he can be a #2. I think he can - it's the #1 option where he struggles due to a lot of his late-game poor decision-making and shaky handles.

[Jcool0]

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[Indomitable]

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Quotes from the previous game. I think it's clear, what we're all seeing as a collective fan base doesn't match the perception around the league. I'm more than happy keeping him.

In the win over the Wizards, Patrick had 3 assists, all went to Zach going to the basket, did you see Zach try to reciprocate?

Lonzo is a team guy, and I want him back next year and beyond. He's going to say Zach is a pro and complete player, but I've been a Bulls fan since before both of them were born and have seen Zach on I think one winning team. Black and Red all the way but let's be honest.

Stacey King is dead bang wrong when he says Patrick knows where he can score points out on the break, rebounding etc so they can't run plays for him. Patrick is exactly the guy they need to run play for because everybody in the building and on TV sees he cannot score those other ways. So run the plays that pt him in a position to post up, go back door on the baseline, the lob dunk not just so he scores but the guy guarding him can't just monitor him in the corner, he has to guard him all 24 seconds and double anybody else.

Yes, he gave it to him twice off the top of my head when he was posting Pool up under the basket.

You have an agenda.