Top 10 Bulls of the post dynasty era

[TheGOATRises007]

We aren't comparing them to the other players in the league at the time. Name something you think Rose did better than Lavine does.

Lavine scored 1700 more points than Rose in the same number of games as a Bull. He is a better shooter, and a better 3 point shooter. Lavine is a better rebounder. Rose gets an edge on assists but was never a huge assist guy, and lets face it he had better offensive players around him to make shots.

Rose's best TS% with the Bulls was .550. Rose shot under 45% from the field and 30% from 3. Rose certainly wasn't a better defender.

You said this, "It is based on the OP definition of talent as compared to the rest of the league"

If you think Lavine is more talented than Rose, then our record should be much better than what it is, but it isn't.

Rose's impact dwarfs LaVine's.

His impact metrics were top 5 or top 10 in the league. LaVine is nowhere near that. It's not even close.

And I'm pretty sure Deng, Boozer, Noah, etc. are not better offensively than DeRozan, Vucevic, etc. You know they're not better either.

So... you can't think of anything Rosec was better at. Got it.

Rose had better teammates. Of course their record was better. He was on arguably the best team in the league at the time.

Their BPM was exactly the same. +1.8
VORP... almost exactly the same. 13.8 for Rose. 13.6 fir Lavine

I told you his impact metrics during his MVP and subsequent season dwarf LaVine's

You ignored it

But we won't see eye to eye if you think LaVine is the most talented Bulls player post MJ

That's an egregious stance to take

[DuckIII]

1. Rose
2. Butler




3. Lavine


4. Noah
5. DDR
6. Deng

7. Gasol
8. Hinrich
9. Caruso
10. Brand

[Stratmaster]

You said this, "It is based on the OP definition of talent as compared to the rest of the league"

If you think Lavine is more talented than Rose, then our record should be much better than what it is, but it isn't.

Rose's impact dwarfs LaVine's.

His impact metrics were top 5 or top 10 in the league. LaVine is nowhere near that. It's not even close.

And I'm pretty sure Deng, Boozer, Noah, etc. are not better offensively than DeRozan, Vucevic, etc. You know they're not better either.

So... you can't think of anything Rosec was better at. Got it.

Rose had better teammates. Of course their record was better. He was on arguably the best team in the league at the time.

Their BPM was exactly the same. +1.8
VORP... almost exactly the same. 13.8 for Rose. 13.6 fir Lavine

I told you his impact metrics during his MVP and subsequent season dwarf LaVine's

You ignored it

But we won't see eye to eye if you think LaVine is the most talented Bulls player post MJ

That's an egregious stance to take

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

[TheGOATRises007]

So... you can't think of anything Rosec was better at. Got it.

Rose had better teammates. Of course their record was better. He was on arguably the best team in the league at the time.

Their BPM was exactly the same. +1.8
VORP... almost exactly the same. 13.8 for Rose. 13.6 fir Lavine

I told you his impact metrics during his MVP and subsequent season dwarf LaVine's

You ignored it

But we won't see eye to eye if you think LaVine is the most talented Bulls player post MJ

That's an egregious stance to take

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Rose is better than LaVine for winning basketball games. That's all I care about. You already tried to argue LaVine played with lesser offensive players than Rose which is laughable. I mean just laughable.

You can literally go look up the impact stats. I can't even believe you're trying to argue LaVine is more talented than Rose....

Rose's BPM his 2 best seasons destroy LaVine's. His WS hit 13.8 his MVP season. LaVine's never been close to that. Much higher PER in his 2 best seasons.

LaVine is our most talented player since Jordan, but we've been a treadmill team during his time here. It does not compute.

And you're the only person on this board(or any Bulls fandom page) who thinks LaVine is our most talented player since Jordan.

Do you really think if you swapped Rose from 2010-2011 with LaVine now, we'd still be a sub .500 team?

Or the Bulls then wouldn't get much worse? If so, just wow...

[TheGOATRises007]

Even looking at ESPN's RAPM, Rose placed top 10 twice. LaVine was never close to that.

Looking at EPM, Raptor, etc. LaVine was never top 10 in a single season. Even this current season, I don't even think he's top 25 or close to it.

Rose's ORAPM was 2nd in 2010-2011 season only behind Manu and he was even slightly ahead of LeBron.

Rose's ORAPM was 2nd in the 2011-2012 season on a limited sample size(not as many games played as others) and only LeBron in his absolute prime was ahead of him.

And I'm supposed to believe LaVine is more talented than him. Give me a break. I like LaVine too and I think he's harshly judged, but he's nowhere near our most talented player since MJ.

[DuckIII]

On Lavine, he's pretty clearly a uniquely and elitely talented basketball player even by NBA standards. I have him 3rd, but in a completely different tier (all to himself) than not just Rose, but Butler as well. In Butler's case, at his peak performance for the Bulls he was comparable as a scorer to Lavine while also being one of the very best defensive wings in the NBA. Its not really much of a contest when you consider the entirety of what winning players do to, well, win.

The Rose argument is kinda easy to deal with. Strat truly is the only person who would take the position that the best post-Dynasty Bull has been Lavine. Why debate that? I love Lavine, but its a preposterous premise and the cherry-picked arguments required to support it simply further confirm the counterpoint.

Teams won't even trade for Lavine. Teams were terrified of Rose and would have gladly given kingmaker trade packages to get him.

[NZB2323]

So... you can't think of anything Rosec was better at. Got it.

Rose had better teammates. Of course their record was better. He was on arguably the best team in the league at the time.

Their BPM was exactly the same. +1.8
VORP... almost exactly the same. 13.8 for Rose. 13.6 fir Lavine

I told you his impact metrics during his MVP and subsequent season dwarf LaVine's

You ignored it

But we won't see eye to eye if you think LaVine is the most talented Bulls player post MJ

That's an egregious stance to take

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Defense, passing, penetration, winning playoff games.

I have Noah ahead of Lavine as well.

Lavine’s playoff stats with the Bulls are 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER.

Rose in 2011 was 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.9 PER.

Butler in 2015 was 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS.%, 20.8 PER.

Noah, Deng, Gasol, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon have accomplished more for the Bulls in the playoffs than Zach Lavine ever has. I’m sure that Lavine could beat them in a skills competition, but when it comes to the NBA playoffs, these guys have done more.

[erlim]

1. Jimmy Butler
2. Derrick Rose
3. Ron Artest
4. Joakim Noah
5. Elton Brand
6. Pau Gasol
7. Ben Gordon
8. Jamal Crawford
9. Luol Deng
10. Demar Derozan

Notable (in order): Lauri Markkanen, Sean Kilpatrick, Carlos Boozer, Kirk Hinrich, Nate Robinson, Andres Nocioni, sadly Dwyane Wade, Tyson Chandler, Zach Lavine.

[Stratmaster]

I told you his impact metrics during his MVP and subsequent season dwarf LaVine's

You ignored it

But we won't see eye to eye if you think LaVine is the most talented Bulls player post MJ

That's an egregious stance to take

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Defense, passing, penetration, winning playoff games.

I have Noah ahead of Lavine as well.

Lavine’s playoff stats with the Bulls are 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER.

Rose in 2011 was 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.9 PER.

Butler in 2015 was 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS.%, 20.8 PER.

Noah, Deng, Gasol, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon have accomplished more for the Bulls in the playoffs than Zach Lavine ever has. I’m sure that Lavine could beat them in a skills competition, but when it comes to the NBA playoffs, these guys have done more.

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

[NZB2323]

I gave you 2 impact stats. I gave you the scoring and efficiency numbers. You have given nothing but your opinion. You "told me" his impact stats dwarf Lavines? You haven't given a single one.

Again. Name something Rose did better than Lavine does.

Defense, passing, penetration, winning playoff games.

I have Noah ahead of Lavine as well.

Lavine’s playoff stats with the Bulls are 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER.

Rose in 2011 was 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.9 PER.

Butler in 2015 was 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS.%, 20.8 PER.

Noah, Deng, Gasol, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon have accomplished more for the Bulls in the playoffs than Zach Lavine ever has. I’m sure that Lavine could beat them in a skills competition, but when it comes to the NBA playoffs, these guys have done more.

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

[Stratmaster]

Defense, passing, penetration, winning playoff games.

I have Noah ahead of Lavine as well.

Lavine’s playoff stats with the Bulls are 19, 6, and 5, 55.3 TS%, 13.8 PER.

Rose in 2011 was 27, 8, and 4, 49.9 TS%, 22.9 PER.

Butler in 2015 was 23, 6, and 3, 56.2 TS.%, 20.8 PER.

Noah, Deng, Gasol, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon have accomplished more for the Bulls in the playoffs than Zach Lavine ever has. I’m sure that Lavine could beat them in a skills competition, but when it comes to the NBA playoffs, these guys have done more.

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

[prolific passer]

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

You don't seriously think that Lavine is better than Rose do you?

[NZB2323]

Playoff wins wasn't the topic. It was talent. You have to have a good team to get to the playoffs.

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

The word talent doesn’t appear in the OP. He talked about how good players were relative to the rest of the league. Derrick Rose won MVP. Noah made the all-NBA 1st teams

Noah was 4th in MVP voting in 2014, not the most talented team. The 2004-2006 Bulls and 2014 Bulls were not the most talented teams.

And yes, Rose was much better at defense, and would routinely outplay elite point guards head to head. Zach Lavine has had a negative DBPM every year of his career, whereas Rose was +6.8 his MVP year, and Rose played in 81, 78, and 81 games his first 3 seasons. There’s been 2 seasons where Lavine has played 65 games with us and he had a negative +/- in both of them.

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And Rose today would be surrounded by 4 3 point shooters, not Noah, Gibson, Deng, and Bogans.

Zach is like JR Smith. He has skills but he isn’t an elite player.

It seems to me that you’re the one moving the goalposts. You say Zach is more talented for today’s game because he’s a better 3 point shooter, but then he has worse teammates, even though they’re much better 3 point shooters than what Rose’s teammates were and Rose never got to benefit from that spacing.

Is Zach Lavine also more talented than Bill Russell and Kareem because they didn’t shoot 3s?

[Stratmaster]

Is the ability to stay healthy a talent? Is defensive awareness a talent? Is developing chemistry with your teammates a talent? Is making the playoffs a talent?

It’s not like Joakim Noah and Kirk Hinrich were always on teams that were a lot more talented than the teams that Lavine has been on.

This is Lavine’s 8th year on the Bulls and he’s won 1 playoff game.

If he’s so talented why can’t he make the playoffs more? Why can’t he play better in the playoffs? Why can’t he win playoff games?

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

You don't seriously think that Lavine is better than Rose do you?

From a strictly talent perspective, of course. Let me ask it a different way. What talents did Rose have that Lavine doesn't do just as well.

Passing? Probably.

What does Lavine do better? Shooting. From all 3 levels.

Defending one on one.

Everything else. Pretty much even.

Which skill is most important?

[prolific passer]

There's no point discussing this with you. You move the goalpost with every response. You really are going with "Rose was healthier as a Bull than Lavine"? Really?

And yes. Rose and Noah were always on better teams lol. But the debate was who was more talented. Rose or Lavine. It really isn't even that close.

You also asked a couple posts back if the Bulls had Rose this season instead of Lavine would they be better. The answer is obviously no, if for no other reason than the league is a 3 point shooting league now and Rose was a poor 3 point shooter where Zach is elite.

There is no universe where Rose was better defensively than Lavine. Rose couldn't play anyone straight up.

Developing chemistry with teammates?

You're just being ridiculous now.

You don't seriously think that Lavine is better than Rose do you?

From a strictly talent perspective, of course. Let me ask it a different way. What talents did Rose have that Lavine doesn't do just as well.

Passing? Probably.

What does Lavine do better? Shooting. From all 3 levels.

Defending one on one.

Everything else. Pretty much even.

Which skill is most important?

I highly doubt Lavine could have done with Rose did in his MVP season with his starting center and power forward out for a good portion of the season. Even Kurt Thomas who was the backup center was out for a bit which allowed asik to get playing time and develop pretty good as a rookie.

[Stratmaster]

On Lavine, he's pretty clearly a uniquely and elitely talented basketball player even by NBA standards. I have him 3rd, but in a completely different tier (all to himself) than not just Rose, but Butler as well. In Butler's case, at his peak performance for the Bulls he was comparable as a scorer to Lavine while also being one of the very best defensive wings in the NBA. Its not really much of a contest when you consider the entirety of what winning players do to, well, win.

The Rose argument is kinda easy to deal with. Strat truly is the only person who would take the position that the best post-Dynasty Bull has been Lavine. Why debate that? I love Lavine, but its a preposterous premise and the cherry-picked arguments required to support it simply further confirm the counterpoint.

Teams won't even trade for Lavine. Teams were terrified of Rose and would have gladly given kingmaker trade packages to get him.

And yet you can't tell me what Rose did better. The Bulls traded Rose and Holiday for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon and had to throw in a pick to do that. I don't believe Calderon ever played a minute. I'm sure if you want to trade Lavine, Craig and a draft pick for the equivalent of Robin Lopez teams will line up.

[Stratmaster]

You don't seriously think that Lavine is better than Rose do you?

From a strictly talent perspective, of course. Let me ask it a different way. What talents did Rose have that Lavine doesn't do just as well.

Passing? Probably.

What does Lavine do better? Shooting. From all 3 levels.

Defending one on one.

Everything else. Pretty much even.

Which skill is most important?

I highly doubt Lavine could have done with Rose did in his MVP season with his starting center and power forward out for a good portion of the season. Even Kurt Thomas who was the backup center was out for a bit which allowed asik to get playing time and develop pretty good as a rookie.

You're avoiding the question. As is everyone else clutching their pearls because someone dare to compare Rose to anyone.

[prolific passer]

From a strictly talent perspective, of course. Let me ask it a different way. What talents did Rose have that Lavine doesn't do just as well.

Passing? Probably.

What does Lavine do better? Shooting. From all 3 levels.

Defending one on one.

Everything else. Pretty much even.

Which skill is most important?

I highly doubt Lavine could have done with Rose did in his MVP season with his starting center and power forward out for a good portion of the season. Even Kurt Thomas who was the backup center was out for a bit which allowed asik to get playing time and develop pretty good as a rookie.

You're avoiding the question. As is everyone else clutching their pearls because someone dare to compare Rose to anyone.

Well you have to have talent to do what Rose did in 2011.

[prolific passer]

Rose is clear #1 in the post dynasty era but my favorite was and always will be Ben Gordon. I watched him during his NCAA title run in 03-04 with UConn. Him and Okafor were the Shaq and Kobe of the NCAA that year and I just had a feeling that the bulls were going to draft him in 04 as he was the best pure scorer in that draft and that's what they were lacking.

[Stratmaster]

I highly doubt Lavine could have done with Rose did in his MVP season with his starting center and power forward out for a good portion of the season. Even Kurt Thomas who was the backup center was out for a bit which allowed asik to get playing time and develop pretty good as a rookie.

You're avoiding the question. As is everyone else clutching their pearls because someone dare to compare Rose to anyone.

Well you have to have talent to do what Rose did in 2011.

Of course he had talent. Loads of it. Never said he didn't.