Can we safely say Jokic is the best offensive player ever?

Post #461 » by **dakomish23** » Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:28 pm

You can safely say nothing on RGM

dhsilv2 · Post #462 » by **dhsilv2** » Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:46 pm

Ssj16 wrote:Curry was amazing but if his 3 isn't falling even with warping the defense, his offensive impact craters. Jokic is so versatile and can kill you on so many spots on the floor and is an incredible screener, I'd argue people haven't forgotten about Curry but more so Jokic is just that incredible.

we had large stretches where he did just that, was shooting poorly and the on/off RAPM data more or less showed Curry's impact was the same as when he was shooting well.

Johnny Bball · Post #463 » by **Johnny Bball** » Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:51 pm

You can safely assume that the great majority of people will ignore that the game has changed dramatically because of rule changes, and compare an apple to an orange with no reservations. That is at least certain.

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #464 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:00 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
AdagioPace wrote:
not an exaggeration to say he's like late-prime Nowitzki and Chris Paul trapped in one person

more like Larry Bird in a center body.

Bird could never get to the rim like Jokic could. What makes Jokic such a threat on offense is the pressure he puts at the rim and around the paint area. His passing and shooting only stretches defenses to the limit even further.

he could have if he had a center body, that's my point

Wallace_Wallace · Post #465 » by **Wallace_Wallace** » Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:16 pm

mcmurphy wrote:
Wallace_Wallace wrote: I don't know how to search this particular stat, but I'm guessing Westbrook has the most assists from Jokic's baskets and vise versa.

since 2024-12-06, assist from/to Westbrook

If I'm reading this correctly, not only Jokic benefits greatly from Westbrook, MPJ shoots a bot-like percentage from Westbrook's passes.

dhsilv2 · Post #466 » by **dhsilv2** » Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:31 pm

Wallace_Wallace wrote:
mcmurphy wrote:
Wallace_Wallace wrote: I don't know how to search this particular stat, but I'm guessing Westbrook has the most assists from Jokic's baskets and vise versa.

since 2024-12-06, assist from/to Westbrook

If I'm reading this correctly, not only Jokic benefits greatly from Westbrook, MPJ shoots a bot-like percentage from Westbrook's passes.

Jokic shoots 46% when Westbrook passes him the ball. That seems pretty average to me? MPJ is at 62.8% which is great.

Peregrine01 · Post #467 » by **Peregrine01** » Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:38 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:more like Larry Bird in a center body.

Bird could never get to the rim like Jokic could. What makes Jokic such a threat on offense is the pressure he puts at the rim and around the paint area. His passing and shooting only stretches defenses to the limit even further.

he could have if he had a center body, that's my point

Luka is shorter than Bird but he lives at the rim because of how thick he is. Guys like Jokic and Luka are immovable because of their builds and lower centers of gravity. Defenders just bounce off of them. Bird was 6'9" and had a great post game but he was never able to move guys out of the way like those two could.

Pelly24 · Post #468 » by **Pelly24** » Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:02 am

mcmurphy wrote:I'm just saying this... if Westbrook, in 16 seasons and 1200 NBA games, never even sniffed a TS% of .600 over 15 games in his entire career, and now after playing less than 700 minutes total with Jokic, he's got a TS% of .609 in the last 15 games... maybe, just maybe, the Serbian dude is a little bit off the charts offensively.

Nitpicky, but i remember during his MVP season he had like a 20-game stretch averaging 30 on 59 TS%.

but yeah, jokic is amazing.

akula1488 · Post #469 » by **akula1488** » Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:04 am

yes. w/o a doubt. He can be the primary ball handler AND co-exist with Westbrook. I don't think you can find another player can excel at both.

Pelly24 · Post #470 » by **Pelly24** » Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:07 am

dhsilv2 wrote:
Ssj16 wrote:Curry was amazing but if his 3 isn't falling even with warping the defense, his offensive impact craters. Jokic is so versatile and can kill you on so many spots on the floor and is an incredible screener, I'd argue people haven't forgotten about Curry but more so Jokic is just that incredible.

we had large stretches where he did just that, was shooting poorly and the on/off RAPM data more or less showed Curry's impact was the same as when he was shooting well.

Curry is so great. But watching Jokic it feels like you won't stop what he brings intangibly or tangibly. I don't think he's *ever* had a truly substandard series-long shooting performance considering circumstances. His ability to disarm doubleteams is just so extreme, his balance so refined, his touch so great, hands so soft, his balance so on-point ... it's just... Basically, I don't think there's a world where anyone but Jokic wins a finals MVP while he's on the same team as them.

dhsilv2 · Post #471 » by **dhsilv2** » Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:10 am

Pelly24 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Ssj16 wrote:Curry was amazing but if his 3 isn't falling even with warping the defense, his offensive impact craters. Jokic is so versatile and can kill you on so many spots on the floor and is an incredible screener, I'd argue people haven't forgotten about Curry but more so Jokic is just that incredible.

we had large stretches where he did just that, was shooting poorly and the on/off RAPM data more or less showed Curry's impact was the same as when he was shooting well.

Curry is so great. But watching Jokic it feels like you won't stop what he brings intangibly or tangibly. I don't think he's *ever* had a truly substandard series-long shooting performance considering circumstances. His ability to disarm doubleteams is just so extreme, his balance so refined, his touch so great, hands so soft, his balance so on-point ... it's just... Basically, I don't think there's a world where anyone but Jokic wins a finals MVP while he's on the same team as them.

This is kinda my view on the two. Curry is like that spider that bit spiderman for his teammates but when the warriors are struggling, he can't always just do it himself. Jokic can do it himself for 40 minutes if it's called for. His endurance and overall fitness is crazy for a man his size.

Rust_Cohle · Post #472 » by **Rust_Cohle** » Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:15 am

Bobbymcgee wrote:Last time I checked LeBron James was the all-time NBA scoring leader, not Jokic.

And all time turnovers and missed FG leader. Jokic clears just about anyone offensively

Pelly24 · Post #473 » by **Pelly24** » Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:45 am

Here's what I'll say: 2018 LeBron was just absolutely unstoppable. Probably same for 2017 lebron. Like 8 40-point games in the playoffs with *that* roster is just astonishing. He essentially didn't have any weaknesses. His athleticism had probably dropped off by 5 or 10% ... which still made him easily the most athletic player in the league. But he was hitting pull-up threes, finishing like giannis, hitting fadeaways like kobe and MJ. It was just insane. I can't say i've ever seen anyone play better than that — in the playoffs at least.

bbms · Post #474 » by **bbms** » Wed Jan 15, 2025 2:21 am

i think he's the best ever to play basketball. not goat, just the best ever

pure offense? is there even a discussion?

a dip on a side discussion: guys, westbrook isn't playing in la anymore. we can stop pretending he's bad at the game of basketball. whenever you hear there has been over 50 people to grace in the nba better than westbrook, you can laugh and thank for the funny joke.

CodeBreaker · Post #475 » by **CodeBreaker** » Wed Jan 15, 2025 5:58 am

Yes. I've seen prime Lebron, Curry, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KD... Jokic is just better offensively. His game is so beautiful to watch.

QPR · Post #476 » by **QPR** » Wed Jan 15, 2025 12:49 pm

bbms wrote:i think he's the best ever to play basketball. not goat, just the best ever

This is where I'm at. He hasn't got the achievements to be in the GOAT conversation (yet) but I'm not sure there's ever been anyone better at the game of basketball.

lobosloboslobos · Post #477 » by **lobosloboslobos** » Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:17 pm

The way to compare usefully across eras is not based on raw stats but on comparison to contemporaries. How much better was player X than everyone else he played against?

In arguably Lebron's best years, say 2009 and 2013, both MVP years, here is how he compared to other players:

Lebron 2009: #2 in points, #11 in assists, #42 in rebounds, #8 in steals

Lebron 2013: #4 in points, #12 in assists, #31 in rebounds, #13 in steals

And here is how Jokic is doing this year:

Jokic 2025: #3 in points, #2 in assists, #3 in rebounds, #4 in steals (plus 47% from 3, leading the league)

You could argue that Lebron's defensive abilities made him a better all around player, but offensively there's no comparison. Jokic is much better.

TheGeneral99 · Post #478 » by **TheGeneral99** » Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:20 pm

If you look at every stat and advanced metric, he is arguably the best offensive player of all time.

At the very least he is in the debate with Jordan and Lebron for sure.

You have a guy who is one of the most efficient post-up players of all time, one of the best mid-range players of all time, is a great 3 point shooter, is one of the best facilitators of all the time, and one of the best rebounders of all time. I've never seen that offensive combination before.

audiosway · Post #479 » by **audiosway** » Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:34 am

Jaqua92 wrote:
audiosway wrote:
AleksandarN wrote:Remember when Jason Timpf ranked Jokic 8th in the NBA when he won the MVP in 2022. Oh how times changed. He is calling Jokic the greatest offensive player he has ever seen. Even above his favourite player Lebron. Crazy flip

[youtube]

Watch on YouTube

[/youtube]

I'll never understand how we just can't say that Jokic is one of the best offensive players that's played the game. It HAS to be that he is THE greatest offensive player that's EVER played.

Why not? Even if it isn't true, it's a legitimate discussion. He's the most complete offensive player the game has ever seen who has no weaknesses in his offensive game. There's nothing exploitable and his floor impact is higher than anyone, ever.

You should be ashamed of yourself. You call yourself a Boston fan and put Jokic over Bird? Bruh. Bird was the most complete offensive player the game has ever seen.

Jokic is darn good. Don't get me wrong. He will be considered an all time great. But, he isn't Bird.

Go look at this and tell me who owns the top 2 spots?
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=nba+players+who+made+50%2B+40%2B+90%2B+club

Now go look at a comparison of Jokic vs Bird. Larry and Jokic are close in numbers offensively. Now adjust Larry playing in an era with hand checking and Michael Jordan, Michael Cooper, Bill Laimbeer, I Thomas, Magic Johnson, Kareem, Hakeem, and the list goes on and on.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/larry_bird_vs_nikola_jokic.htm

So, when you guys start talking about putting Jokic in the top 10 of all time remember that Larry put up numbers back then equivalent to Jokic now. Except Larry had 3 all defensive team selections as well.

audiosway · Post #480 » by **audiosway** » Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:35 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
audiosway wrote:
AleksandarN wrote:Remember when Jason Timpf ranked Jokic 8th in the NBA when he won the MVP in 2022. Oh how times changed. He is calling Jokic the greatest offensive player he has ever seen. Even above his favourite player Lebron. Crazy flip

[youtube]

Watch on YouTube

[/youtube]

I'll never understand how we just can't say that Jokic is one of the best offensive players that's played the game. It HAS to be that he is THE greatest offensive player that's EVER played.

You can say that he's just one of the best, sure.
But you can also argue that he is THE best, why not?
There are tons of reasons to believe that.

Definitely one of the best. See my post above this one for who the best was.